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Tweaking the OTU

How about an Emperor that never seems to die, he uses expensive life prolongation technology, and his rule lasts one thousand years? So what happens when he finally does die? There hasn't been a change in emperors in a very long time, and he has hundreds of thousands of heirs.
 
Originally posted by Space Cadet:
How about an Emperor that never seems to die, he uses expensive life prolongation technology, and his rule lasts one thousand years? So what happens when he finally does die?
Then you get Warhammer 40,000. ;)
And if he dies, Chaos invades the universe and all is lost.
 
Originally posted by Space Cadet:
How about an Emperor that never seems to die, he uses expensive life prolongation technology, and his rule lasts one thousand years? So what happens when he finally does die? There hasn't been a change in emperors in a very long time, and he has hundreds of thousands of heirs.
Tom/Laryssa/Space Cadet, that is exactly NOT the type of change I wanted to discuss here since it WILL break established canon/timeline resulting in something NOT Traveller.
 
The decline and fall of the Imperium has already happened according to The New Era, it started with the assassination of the Emperor and ended with a computer virus being released. But you had something more gradual in mind.

Lets go over your decandent setting, shall we?

Fleet officers depend on noble patronage for promotions to ship commands and above.
That system tends to produce incompetant officers. If the Imperium must face other Space navies that don't use that system for promoting their officers, its going to suffer some reverses in battle. What infected the Roman Empire was overly ambitious Generals who wanted to be Emperor, and you had Emperors who were afraid of being assassinated and replaced by their overly ambitious generals. In the Imperium, the most important military officers are the Admirals. What happens when some grand admiral achieves some success in their field in the Third Imperium? Is the Emperor threatened by this?

Any business that wants to spread past a single planet or a single ship needs a noble patron to survive and prosper
Nobles use their influence to assign fleet assets to protect their own/their clients interests rather than give general protection to their sphere

Yes, that's a patronedge system, its not what you know but who you know.

I wonder, does Traveller have the equivalent of "Barbarian Hordes"? By this I don't mean the Primitive Barbarian Class that is of Tech Level 0 or 1. What I mean is a high tech equivalent of Ghengis Khan, or Attilla the Hun, someone who knows his way around a star ship and who can command a fleet, but also someone who is uncivilized culturally, has no moral compunctions etc.

The thing that comes to mind are Space Pirates, but how about a whole horde of Space Pirates, these are Space Pirates, that don't plunder starships and steal their cargo, but ones that command large fleets that ransack whole planets. These fleets are large enough to overwhelm local system defenses, they can conquer planets temporarily before the Imperium has time to react, and they do terrible things to the population if they don't hand over the loot. they don't shy away from wiping out the populations of whole cities, they take slaves, ans steal cargo ships to carry the loot they plunder. These fleet includes a number of carrier ships, where they make repairs on other ships while on the move, they also use forced labor and hostages to take care of many other tasks to keep their ships flying.

Most nobel take a (inofficial) cut of the taxes he gathers similar to some planets still gathering money for the AHL "Children of the March"
Nobels keep houshold forces far larger than they should, often disguised as mercenary units
Courts on every level are highly factionalised with each group trying to gather power. Important projects get killed simply because they originate in "the other faction"


High taxes depresses the economy, if they are high enough, people will resort to barter or trading in commodities. High taxes will tend to incite rebellions etc.

Assasinations (Character and real) are common at the courts
Courtiers are a dozen a dime at most courts
Nobels put their own live and luxury before everything else
Spies of all kinds run around at court under various disguises, often sabotaging one another. Assume at any time there are at least one Solomanie and Zhodanie Plot as well as a internal rebellion plan against the 3I running


If the periphery is too far away from the center, then the court may not concern itself with other nations nibbling around the edges of the Imperium. Perhaps this may be an opportunity for the PCs to do some nation building at the Imperium's expense. There are plenty of planets with small populations, say 10,000 to 100,000 people. If PC is rich enough, he could hire them all and take command of an entire planet. Most of the planet would be an unoccupied wilderness, but wouldn't it be interesting if the PCs had to manage the day-to-day activities of governing a planet, perhaps it extracts some resources and exports them for hard currency so it can buy the various equipment it needs. The rugged frontierspeople who occupy this planet basically want their taxes low and desire a minimum of services from their government in exchange for the taxes they pay. Higher taxes will tend to drive people into the wilderness and cause them to live off the land rather than sells things for currency and pay their taxes. A planet is a large territory to cover, and their may be things on the planet that the PCs don't know about, as well as threats external to the planet, like rogue pirate fleets that threaten to plunder the towns etc.
 
Unless, the Emperor is indeed an alien lifeform that over the course of the centuries of rule has become quite mad. So much so that personalities fracture and create the lines that we know today. The Civil War & Rebellion could be viewed as humans desparately trying to assert control back over the process. But, when the nobility has become "infected" the lack of noblese obligese and corruption can be explained as by products of an insane eternal Emperor.
 
Actually what I had in mind was starting a gathering of small changes. The "Decadent Empire" is a minor tweak/expansion of the 1105 3I, not the downward spiral to destruction.
 
Well, if an Empire is in decay, then the ultimate destination is the destruction of that empire.

Decandent implies that those in charge are more interested in their own welfare rather than the long term prognosis of the Empire. Each part of the Empire battles over its own turf. if someone has a rival who is an admiral, then he may see to it that the said admiral doesn't get the equipment he needs to fight the exteral forces that threaten the perifery of the Imperium, then that Admiral's reputation goes down the tubes, and the rival is out of the running. The outside force benefits from this sort of infighting, and those in charge are not so concerned about what happens at the edge of the Empire so long as their rival's reputation is ruined in the process, and thus does not threaten the buerocrat's power center.

Decandent implies everybody is in it for himself and is self-interested. The long term interests of the Imperium are of peripheral concern to them as the Imperium's edges are far away, and a minor loss is of little concern so long as they keep their cushy jobs. If their is economic depression or chaos and general breakdown of order, so long as its far away from the capital, they are well insulated from those concerns.
 
Given that Rome or the Ottomans had their greatest extends and power when they where already weak and decaying in the inside I obviously disagree. Decadence and self interest can be survived for decades and (in a monarchy) even centuries.
 
Originally posted by Space Cadet:

Decandent implies everybody is in it for himself and is self-interested.
It is worse than that, everyone is selfish.

The nobility of this Imperium use and abuse their privileges to perpetuate an economic oligopoly and a political oligarchy which is to their liking even if it damages the prosperity and stability of the Imperium itself. No doubt they also subvert the authority of their Emperor when they can get away with it.

I have to say is it really that different from the Third Imperium of the OTU? You are seeing much of the same behavior but on a grander scale. Knobs twiddled to "11"?
 
Spiderfish: I totally agree, it really isn't much of a difference, neither should it be.

The exact nature of the nobility (good-bad, heroic-selfish etc) has never been clearly defined, neither has patronage, corruption etc. All left to the referee. This is true for many other regions of the OTU like:

+ Are there something like trade unions
+ Is there something like a "Captains List" or "Purchased Commisions"
+ Is there a "spacemans guild" or a "Captains guild"
+ Imperial Banking

etc. We have hints and suggestions ("Children of the March", the Imperial Problems in the 4th/5th Succession war, Required Nobility for certain positions, Tukera being in Bed with High Nobility, The Imperial family as a stockholder etc) but the exact 3I has always been left to the individual GM. Basically we get a scale from 1 to 5 with the nob set at 3. I want to gather ideas where others set their nob.
 
The Third Imperium is a big place and I am sure the answer to those questions would differ from place to place.

"+ Are there something like trade unions"

On some planets yes and on some planets no.

In interstellar space? I seem to recall some sort of Great Strike,it was something to do with Tukera Lines.

"Imperial Banking"

No doubt it will be very complex and will involve lots of money.
 
So what do you think?

Should there be a Traveller equivalent of Attila The Hun?

I think in the OTU, Attilla would be the leader of a fleet of Space pirates in a trully humongous Space Pirate Navy. Some thing that is capable of defeating parts of the Overstretched Imperial Navy and sacking the Capital. These aren't your typical space pirates, they are a nomadic band of space predators with some capital Warships in their fleet. They would be a pirate fleet capable of waging pitched battles in space with the regular Imperial Navy and sometines defeating them. This space age Attilla wouldn't be able to hold on the the Capital, and the Imperial Navy when sufficiently concentrated would overwhelm them, but they would hold the place for a couple of weeks, long enought to plunder it before additional navy ships arrive within system.

How about a Traveller equivalent of Julius Caesar?
Julius Caesar would be an ambitious Admiral, he would be a military genius, he would conquer and add vast swaths of new territory to the Imperium, and perhaps gain some personal loyalty and following among the section of the Imperial Navy and Marines that he commands. How would the Imperial Moot React if this Julius Caesar were to bring his victorious fleet into the Capital System? Would their be laws against this? Is there an Imperium equivalent to the "Rubicon" that he is not supposed to cross when entering the Capital.

What about the "Third Estate", what the imperium lacks is an ecclesiastical order of priests, bishops, and Cardinals, or perhaps in the earlier stages a new religion develops in the Imperium that is persecuted like the Christians were in Nero's Rome for instance.
 
Originally posted by Space Cadet:
How about an Emperor that never seems to die, he uses expensive life prolongation technology, and his rule lasts one thousand years? So what happens when he finally does die? There hasn't been a change in emperors in a very long time, and he has hundreds of thousands of heirs.
Sounds a lot like Cole & Bunch's Sten Series of books.
 
Space Cadet:

Caesar is a bit (actually a LOT) more complex than that. But if you want one, try the various Emperors of the Flag, starting with Plankwell himself. This here is only a first glimpse at an extremly complex person and time.

Same with Attila. The Huns had a pretty decend empire of their own shown here even before Attila
 
Originally posted by Spiderfish:
The Third Imperium is a big place and I am sure the answer to those questions would differ from place to place.

"+ Are there something like trade unions"

On some planets yes and on some planets no.

In interstellar space? I seem to recall some sort of Great Strike,it was something to do with Tukera Lines.

"Imperial Banking"

No doubt it will be very complex and will involve lots of money.
Describe your concepts of them Spiderfish, describe your concepts :D
 
Michael Brinkhues wrote:
 Fleet officers depend on noble patronage for promotions to ship commands and above.
To some extent this is how I portray my 3rd Imperium, especially those reaching Command/Flag rank (O-5/CDR) and above. Mavericks (non-Noble officers) in peacetime Navies seldom rise above Captain /O-6.
 Any business that wants to spread past a single planet or a single ship needs a noble patron to survive and prosper
True, or has the backing of larger megacorporation—e.g. a subsidiary buyout-merger. Nobles are big shareholders, and their fief-worlds and resources are just bigger chips on the table of politics & economics. Rivalling the Corporations is the VGB, MTU-3rd Imperium’s Vilani Mafia, older than any Solomani criminal organization, and fluent in trade law and manipulation of the Laws of Interstellar commerce and laundering. On Some worlds, they are the government, as well as Nobility.
 Nobles use their influence to assign fleet assets to protect their own/their client’s interests rather than give general protection to their sphere.
Unless they hold command rank, or are Subsector Overlords, No. They may curry favor with the Subsector Fleet Command, but they can be overruled By the Sector Admiral & Sector Duke—and moving anything under his/her purview without authorization has repercussions beyond economic into the personal.
 Most noble take a (unofficial) cut of the taxes he gathers similar to some planets still gathering money for the AHL "Children of the March"
Some worlds do this, others have their Noble on a stipend. Still other powerful world governments, pay the Noble’s salary, even elect him to go to Core (and thus out of their hair!) to the Moot where he/she maybe as inefficient and out of their hair as possible (and maybe get killed relieving themselves of the Nuisance Noble once and for all)
 Nobles keep household forces far larger than they should, often disguised as mercenary units.
Those with ambitions beyond the size of their Huscarls have been known to do so, often brokering them out as a resource income of revenue their fief may not bring in. Instellarms,LIC got its start this way. It is not unheard of, but is not common either, due to expenses of troops, and vessels to move them.
 Courts on every level are highly factionalized with each group trying to gather power. Important projects get killed simply because they originate in "the other faction"
I Utilize this in particularly High Population worlds with Govt. 3 (Oligarchy/Nobility) where such cases of local court politics tends to be factionalized regionally on a world, and this magnifies as it plays out across Subsector-Sector-Imperium representation to the Moot. Rhylanor, Efate JUNIDY are several such worlds with court intrigues and plots within their own system.
 Assassinations (Character and real) are common at the courts
Stealing a Page from the Honor-Verse, we have dueling as well among Nobles IMTU-3rd Imperium. This does tend to get the unclever weeded out, as well as the unlucky. It can be also used for assassinations, when the offended party challenges and due to handicap (ie a Grav chair-bound certain Noble has used this, had a proficient killer for a second remove Political “obstacles” in his path)
 Courtiers are a dozen a dime at most courts
Ministers (with and without Portfolio), local Nobility (minor and Major), Land rich-Money poor Nobles, Knights & Nobles with no enfiefment yes, clutter about Subsector courts like pigeons on a statue, IMTU 3rd Imperium.
 Nobles put their own live and luxury before everything else
There are bad apples, and then there are poisoned apples among the good ones—reputations can be made and sold in a moment of indiscretion, and the gotchya game of politics and Hush money are bywords in the courts. Family peccadilloes tend to get packed off to the border worlds for a while when things get too warm, or the MOJ gets called into a matter.
 Spies of all kinds run around at court under various disguises, often sabotaging one another. Assume at any time there are at least one Solomani and Zhodani Plot as well as a internal rebellion plan against the 3I running
IMTU 3rd Imperium, the Ine-Givar is the Al-Quaeda of the 3rd Imperium, not just a Zho-sponsored threat, but an overall anti-Imperial One. Anyone with an axe to grind against the 3rd Imperium can hire them, pour money into their cause, and bad things will happen…somewhere, to some Imperial world.

These are some things I tend to flavor in, and of course several others of my acquaintance in the role of GM.

"You have a play; we have the Rose, a theatre. Let us show the Constable we are men of parts, and not the Buxom Bombasts he poses us as--Gentlemen, the stage is yours..."--attributed to Wm. Babbage of Terra.
 
Spacefarers Guild;

Unlike the rather elitist TAS with it's selected membership the Spacefarers Guild is open to anyone who makes a living working on a spaceship as a merchant marine. Guild membership costs a nominal fee of 50 Credits a month and gives a member the following benefits:

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  • The Guild runs a hiring hall/board on Class D+ ports</font>
  • The Guild acts as a clearing house/vouching service for it's members, certifing the members quality on request by interested employers</font>
  • The Guild acts as a money transfer agency/bank/insurance agency for the members (for an extra charge)</font>
  • The Guild keeps a list of lawyers that will take a spacemens case on court</font>
Ship owners and Captains can enter the Shipmasters Guild for a slightly higher fee (150/month). This gives them a number of additional benefits:

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  • Access to information on availabel crew members and qualifications</font>
  • Access to Guild-certified cargo agents</font>
  • Personal checking/clearing services</font>
 
I have subdivided this Space farer's Guild, MB, IMTU based on technology, and areas of specilization, with references from MT's various sourcebooks, MT-Hard Times, and SF books like those of CJ Cherryh.

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The "sling-Jockeys",or the Shuttle pilots Guild/ and Rocket-lift gravity well pilots of pre-gravitic TL worlds (TL6-8). These pilots, crews are the ones who move and schlep freight/ passengers to and from orbit off the mainworlds. D-class port worlds of TL6+

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The System Pilots Guild (Those who move the freight from orbit, to other colonized worlds within the planetary system, or harvest petrochemicals and rare gases from Gas Giants (Again, worlds of TL7+ D-class port worlds+.

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The Jump-Pilots Guild, or the "Merchant's Academy" as this can be referred to, teaching the skills of the above two, as well as interstellar astrogation C-class ports +, and Worlds of TL9+.
 
I use a number of concepts of the "Decadent" 3I in my Regency for my TNE derivative game, including many on this list (I might add some ideas from here too). Some of these may be of interest to you reading this thread:

* Alien mercenaries. One of my not-necessarily scientific observations about decadent empires is their increasing reliance of outside mercenaries because their own citizens no longer wish to fight (obviously, this isn't the case always - the Carthaginians extensively used mercenaries even at their height). Aslan and Vargr would probably be the most common alien mercenaries spinward. However, Ithklur and Solomani expatriates are common rimward (IMTU Solomani ground troops have a fearsome reputation and are much sought-after). Indeed, entire sections of the Imperial border are probably controlled completely by mercenary armies paid out of the coffers of some Imperial Noble or another. As with those times back then, mercenaries are not a sullied name like they are today, but an honored profession. These guys won't just sell you out on a whim, and many mercenaries have been in the hire of the Imperium for generations. IMTU, Archduke Brzk was the scion of such a mercenary family, in the employ of the Imperium since before the Flag Emperors.

* Procession. Taking a page from Tokugawa Japan, the tradition of Procession (the 3I version of sankin-kotai) exists. Landed high nobles had to alternate residences. 2 years on Capital, 2 years on their fief. The amazing expense of having to move your entire household and the disruptions keep nobles in line. The practice continues in the Regency, though now everyone gathers at the Domain capital. Nobles are expected to travel in Jump for one week, then spend five days on their stop enjoying the local sights and such (and spend lavishly) - however, nobles are expected to use J4 or J5 vessels so this isn't quite as bad as it might sound.

* Jump Control. This is something unique to the Regency, but I thought I would toss it out there for people who might find a way to employ it on a wider basis. For a variety reasons, including dangers of ships "wildfiring" the Virus around the Domain, the desperate need for fast ships, and so on, the DoD declared imminent domain over all ships of Jump-3 and above for the "duration of the emergency." Due to tragic events, Norris was never able to repeal the emergency law, and it soon became Regency High Law. Instead, the Regency passed out old Battle Rider Tenders to act as "Heighliners" for long jumps. A merchant (or anyone else) with a J1 or J2 ship could pay for a spot on a Heighliner, and their ships would be grappled to the Heighliner and the Heighliner would make a jump. The Regency controls such trade and travel by dictating costs of transport charges. Only a tiny number of companies are allowed to operate such Heighliners, and all must have Imperial Marines aboard (ostensibly as security - even though you're never allowed to leave your ship during jumps).
 
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