Traveller5 and World Budgets

[robject]

I'm struggling with the statement on page 56 disconnecting RU's and MCr. That breaks the link between a world/government and the tonnage they can produce.

I dearly loved Pocket Empires, and had a good deal of fun using its rules to determine the available budget for construction of military tonnage. [...]

I think RU applies to the concept of (Pocket) Empires, even though RU don't directly map to MCr. RU can be an indicator of political oomf, and the ability to "get things done" on several levels.

The interesting thing about Pocket Empires (the concept, not the game) is that tonnage is not necessarily the important thing; rather effectiveness is. Those of us who have played High Guard know that a billion credits can be wasted on poor designs.

If Regina has 800 RU, notice it's not necessarily "800 RU per annum" -- it's "800 RU". It's almost as if you don't "buy" things with RU, but rather "support" things. Regardless of how Regina obtained it (RU is based on lots of things, including system resources, TL, starport class, bases, trade codes...), it's Regina's RU. Presumably then RU is used to support those things upon which RU is dependent. Infrastructure and TL, Starport class, bases, and trade, system exploitation and defense, and so on.

So it seems that RU applies to Grand Strategy, including pocket empires and fleet building.

 

[rancke]

About the value of a hex, there were some rules for determining the resources of hexes in World Tamer's Handbook.


Hans

 

[aramis]

[m;]A post that crossed my political line was moved to the Political Pulpit; for further discussion go there.[/m;]

 

[aramis]

A couple of times? The Emperor of San Francisco? Some artist your heard about once? You're killing me here. This doesn't even rise to the level of barstool pontificating. Raise the bar, Magnus. You're better than this.

I provided a link to a paper on historical government debt written by a respected US economic think tank to add weight to my argument about the abstract nature of economics at the macro level, and you cite some anecdotal stuff about a mentally ill man who made pretend money to pay some of his debts in the late 1800s. The real story about the Emperor and His Money is that people loved this guy so much they accepted his pretend money, and he was not arrested for treason after declaring Congress abolished. That's because he was insane and no one took him seriously. They humored him as we humor those we love who are no longer in possession of their full faculties. The city adopted that guy as their mascot.

In no way does this lend credence to your assertion that RU can or even should be converted to CrImps.

Emperor Norton I is a known historical figure whose currency was accepted, even tho' California was part of the US at the time. It's a clear case of a fiat currency being accepted for no good reasons.

 

[JFGarber]

I think RU applies to the concept of (Pocket) Empires, even though RU don't directly map to MCr.
It's almost as if you don't "buy" things with RU, but rather "support" things.

So it seems that RU applies to Grand Strategy, including pocket empires and fleet building.

I played it the same way--a measure of support ability rather than annual (or any other period) construction capacity.

But I seem to recall that there was a spot in those rules that mapped 1 RU to 250MCr very specifically. It's been a while.

 

[Original_Carl]

Emperor Norton I is a known historical figure whose currency was accepted, even tho' California was part of the US at the time. It's a clear case of a fiat currency being accepted for no good reasons.

They had a very good reason to accept his currency. They loved him. He was the city's mascot. The entire city humored him, like you would a crazy relative.

That aside, fiat currencies do have a long-standing place in human culture. We use them all the time without realizing it -- grocery store coupons are a good example.

Money is simply a way to measure value. Dollars are one standard of measurement. Coupons are another. HM Norton 1 the Insane's Magickal Ten Dollar Notes are another.

 

[HG_B]

Emperor Norton I is a known historical figure whose currency was accepted, even tho' California was part of the US at the time. It's a clear case of a fiat currency being accepted for no good reasons.

Exactly

 

[Vladika]

They had a very good reason to accept his currency. They loved him. He was the city's mascot. The entire city humored him, like you would a crazy relative.

That aside, fiat currencies do have a long-standing place in human culture. We use them all the time without realizing it -- grocery store coupons are a good example.

Money is simply a way to measure value. Dollars are one standard of measurement. Coupons are another. HM Norton 1 the Insane's Magickal Ten Dollar Notes are another.

The US Dollar, since 1971, as been Fiat Money

Fiat money
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Yuan dynasty banknotes were the earliest fiat money.

Fiat money is money that derives its value from government regulation or law. The term fiat currency is used when the fiat money is used as the main currency of the country. The term derives from the Latin fiat ("let it be done", "it shall be").[1]

Fiat money originated in 11th century China,[2] and its use became widespread during the Yuan and Ming dynasties.[3] During the 13th century, Marco Polo described the fiat money of the Yuan Dynasty in his book The Travels of Marco Polo.[4][5] The Nixon Shock of 1971 ended the direct convertibility of the United States dollar to gold. Since then, all reserve currencies have been fiat currencies, including the U.S. dollar and the Euro.

 

[HG_B]

Money is simply a way to measure value. Dollars are one standard of measurement.

Dollars don't don't measure anything. The opposite is actually true.

 

[Original_Carl]

The US Dollar, since 1971, as been Fiat Money

So what? You think this validates your assertion that you can just print your own money? Go for it. Print up some VladikaBucks and bop on down to the grocery store and use them to buy eggs. Tell them it's OK because the Emperor of San Francisco did it. Maybe you can be the Emperor of your town.

Dollars don't measure anything. The opposite is actually true.

It's hard to argue with contradiction and non-sequitur.

This arguing on the Internet is making me tired. If you guys have any more constructive thoughts on RU, I'll be watching.

 

[HG_B]

It's hard to argue with contradiction and non-sequitur.

No, it EASY to fling insults when you get cornered and have no real reply.

Hence, your reply <plonk>

 

[Vladika]

So what? You think this validates your assertion that you can just print your own money? Go for it. Print up some VladikaBucks and bop on down to the grocery store and use them to buy eggs. Tell them it's OK because the Emperor of San Francisco did it. Maybe you can be the Emperor of your town.

Just where did I say, or make any assertion, that I could print my own money? If you are going to accuse me of something, please at least be accurate?

BTW, until reading about him in this thread, I'd never heard of the "Emperor of San Francisco"...

 

[aramis]

Just where did I say, or make any assertion, that I could print my own money? If you are going to accuse me of something, please at least be accurate?

BTW, until reading about him in this thread, I'd never heard of the "Emperor of San Francisco"...

Actually, he claimed to be Emperor of North America, not San Francisco. He happened to live in San Francisco...

 

[DonM]

BTW, until reading about him in this thread, I'd never heard of the "Emperor of San Francisco"...

Emperor Norton I was Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico. The title was everything.

The important thing was that everyone knew it was a gag, except for the Emperor, who was somewhat mad. But since the city of San Francisco was in on the joke, they played the game with him. Apparently tourists found the whole thing amazing.

Today's commissioners aren't so amused -- they rejected naming the Tube after him, despite popular demand to do so (since Emperor Norton had actually commissioned its construction).

During the writing of the Zhodani book, I wrote up a significant and important Supreme Councillor who was quite mad, but because his intendants made sure no one knew and all his projects where handled efficiently. But I pulled it because I was worried it might be the cause of many nasty e-mails.

 

[rancke]

Emperor Norton I was Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico. The title was everything.

The important thing was that everyone knew it was a gag, except for the Emperor, who was somewhat mad. But since the city of San Francisco was in on the joke, they played the game with him. Apparently tourists found the whole thing amazing.

Today's commissioners aren't so amused -- they rejected naming the Tube after him, despite popular demand to do so (since Emperor Norton had actually commissioned its construction).

Boo and hiss to those comissioners.


Hans

 

[Spartan159]

According to the Wikipedia entry actually the San Francisco board of supervisors supported it, the Oakland City Council did not. Spoilsports.

 

[HG_B]

According to the Wikipedia entry actually the San Francisco board of supervisors supported it, the Oakland City Council did not. Spoilsports.

I always hated that they wouldn't run BART out to the Oakland int airport. o:

 

[Vladika]

Actually, he claimed to be Emperor of North America, not San Francisco. He happened to live in San Francisco...

I know. Was quoting Original_Carl