Traveller Prime

[robject]

I don't know what to call it. But a recent discussion on RPG.net has got me thinking about D&D's influence on Traveller, which was likely huge. In particular I was wondering what characters would look like if they didn't use the D&D "characteristics" -- if characteristics were descended from the military miniatures wargames without influence from D&D.

Military counters had a few attributes such as "combat strength" and "movement rate". Think Panzerblitz, with ATT, DEF, MOV, and whatever. So I can still see Traveller characters having some basic attributes (STR, DEF, SPD, INT, EDU, PSI, for example), but would they necessarily be the same as D&Ds? Surely something else could have developed.

How many different ways are there of representing characteristics? Would there be some sort of vague "hit location" chart that represented physical and mental capability? Would skills be re-named as "abilities" (or even "traits"!?) with some general functions like "athletics", "reasoning", "tough"?

If characters had anything resembling characteristics, I think there would still not be hit points; Traveller seemed to innovate on damaging characteristics directly.

 

[aramis]

Actually, Rob, T&T was the first RPG to do Damaging Atts directly, albeit only two: ST for exertion/fatigue/magic, and CN for physical damage... in 1975.

 

[sabredog]

Don't forget Melee and Wizards....but they might have been post-Trav. I just remember getting a slew of Microgames around that time or shortly before (Warpwar, Ogre, Chitin 1...).

Empire of The Petal Throne? Runequest....it used location hits to affect attribute scores related to damage. Depending on the edition, but the 2nd ed. (I believe) was what we were playing when Trav came out in '77.

 

[Tellon]

What about Gamma World -- it came out around the same time (I think)

 

[sabredog]

Gamma World came out before but it used hit points like D&D.

 

[aramis]

Don't forget Melee and Wizards....but they might have been post-Trav. I just remember getting a slew of Microgames around that time or shortly before (Warpwar, Ogre, Chitin 1...).

Empire of The Petal Throne? Runequest....it used location hits to affect attribute scores related to damage. Depending on the edition, but the 2nd ed. (I believe) was what we were playing when Trav came out in '77.

RQ is 1978
EPT is 1976
Melee is 1979; wizard 1980; ITL 1981.
T&T is 1975.

 

[sabredog]

Well there you go, the '70's weren't as bad as I thought. The games made up for disco and bell bottoms after all.

 

[spinwardpirate]

Gamma World came out before but it used hit points like D&D.

Gamma World came out after Traveller. Metamorphosis Alpha predates it. And I can't for the life of me remember the damage system for MA. Stats were percentile scores, as I recall. But if it had hit points, of if damage was applied to a Con score, I don't remember...

I could look it up once I'm at home if anyone is interested.

 

[spinwardpirate]

RQ is 1978
EPT is 1976
Melee is 1979; wizard 1980; ITL 1981.
T&T is 1975.

I thought Melee was '77? Hmmm. Wiki seems to agree with me. But don't believe everything you read on the net. Hold on...
http://rdushay.home.mindspring.com/Museum/Fantasy/TFTrevw.html
That says '77 as well.

 

[Zutroi]

Because the Internet IS the Sum Total of Human Knowledge:

http://www.trishladd.com/images/info/Ladd-HistoryofRPG.jpg

 

[aramis]

Yeah, 1st ed melee is 77... I've the 79 printing.

But still T&T is the first to do stat damage, and Melee uses the same mode as T&T. And T&T is 1975.

But hark, Starfaring ALSO uses attribute damage, and is before T&T. (Same author as T&T.)

So attribute damage dates back to RPG Year 1...

 

[sabredog]

Gamma World came out after Traveller. Metamorphosis Alpha predates it. And I can't for the life of me remember the damage system for MA. Stats were percentile scores, as I recall. But if it had hit points, of if damage was applied to a Con score, I don't remember...

I could look it up once I'm at home if anyone is interested.

Yes, you're right, I forgot about Metamorphosis Alpha! I remember that my brother bought it, but we never played it. It took too dang long to try to map the levels of the ship.

Gamma World we tried, but Traveller filled the scifi need while D&D/Runequest/EPTL filled the fantasy. Both Gamma World and Metamorphosis Alpha were just too D&D w/ lasers for us.

 

[spinwardpirate]

Because the Internet IS the Sum Total of Human Knowledge:

http://www.trishladd.com/images/info/Ladd-HistoryofRPG.jpg

That is a thing of beauty! Thanks for the link!

 

[spinwardpirate]

Yeah, 1st ed melee is 77... I've the 79 printing.

But still T&T is the first to do stat damage, and Melee uses the same mode as T&T. And T&T is 1975.

But hark, Starfaring ALSO uses attribute damage, and is before T&T. (Same author as T&T.)

So attribute damage dates back to RPG Year 1...

Pretty cool, and I'm kind of sad that I never got around to playing T&T. My group played a lot of games back then, but that wasn't one of them.

I wonder how Superhero:2044 handled damage? We played that for awhile, but my memory of it is vague.

 

[spinwardpirate]

Gamma World we tried, but Traveller filled the scifi need while D&D/Runequest/EPTL filled the fantasy. Both Gamma World and Metamorphosis Alpha were just too D&D w/ lasers for us.

We played MA a bunch, and had a ton o' fun with it. But yeah, it did take a back seat to Traveller, and Gamma World to a lesser extent, and Morrow Project even moreso.

I've considered running a Traveller adventure using the MA storyline. One more thing on my to-do list.

 

[robject]

We played MA a bunch, and had a ton o' fun with it. But yeah, it did take a back seat to Traveller, and Gamma World to a lesser extent, and Morrow Project even moreso.

I've considered running a Traveller adventure using the MA storyline. One more thing on my to-do list.

We've done Gamma World using Traveller, and vice versa. Feels strange.

 

[ShapeShifter]

For those marginally interested, I wrote up a review of J.E. Holmes' Fantasy Role Playing Games, from 1981. In it he describes and appraises many games played at that time or earlier in the 1970s. The review is in the Reviews section (duh!) of the Dragonsfoot forum. It was a great book and I learned a lot about early RPG's from it.

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=39579

 

[aramis]

Pretty cool, and I'm kind of sad that I never got around to playing T&T. My group played a lot of games back then, but that wasn't one of them.

I wonder how Superhero:2044 handled damage? We played that for awhile, but my memory of it is vague.

Well, I'm willing to run a game of T&T via skype & a die-roller as a one-shot or mini-campaign if you wan to try it...

 

[aramis]

For those marginally interested, I wrote up a review of J.E. Holmes' Fantasy Role Playing Games, from 1981. In it he describes and appraises many games played at that time or earlier in the 1970s. The review is in the Reviews section (duh!) of the Dragonsfoot forum. It was a great book and I learned a lot about early RPG's from it.

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=39579

1) Complexity:
Holmes Basic, compared to Traveller, is consistently just a bit easier to run. Mostly because traveller wil require the charts more than D&D, with two cross references per attack instead of 1.

2) Women:
I know some women into historical wargames, and some into moderns. At the time of Dr. Holmes' writing, many historical and moderns players got hooked whilst in college, and many ROTC programs used wargaming as part of the program; the US Naval War College and the US Army Command and General Staff College both made extensive use of wargames until the 90's, and still use simulations a lot.... but they were, at the time, still almost exclusively male.

3) Solo Modules (=gamebooks?)

No! part of a spectrum, and different parts of it. only a few overlap.

Gamebooks, as typified by Fighting Fantasy, are not the same as T&T or TFT solo modules.
Solo adventure: no rules included; combat resolved with the required, sold separately, core rules. Much wider range of options in combat; you have to play both sides of the combat with pretty much full combat rules.
Gamebook: includes a ruleset in the book; often tailored for the module in question. many do not have character generation, but most seem to. Note that later T&T reprints by Corgi cross that line to being gamebooks, including a short-form of the T&T rules (Fully playable, provided you don't want powerful wizards).
Pick-a-path-to-adventure/Choose-your-own-adventure: the other end of the scale. No system present other than the method of chosing your actions.

Due to its simplicity, T&T solos are VERY close to gamebook combat, and the Corgi editions truly cross the line. TFT doesn't.

 

[ShapeShifter]

@aramis: Thanks for reading my review, and thanks for the input about solo modules!