Traveller in 3D

[BetterThanLife]

With the new Astro Synthesis we now have a tool that will allow rapid system generation, with Traveller values. Even the import of existing Traveller Data is possible. All of this on a nice 3D map.

The question I have is as follows. The best thing, IMHO, about Traveller is the setting and the rich history of the setting. (Including contradicting stories.)

Can you go 3D and keep the setting pretty much intact? Has anyone done this? DO you expand greatly the number of systems in the Imperium or does the Imperium get smaller, communication time wise? How have you handled Jump Drive, without the nice hexes for distance?

Obviously there would need to be some historical revisions. Jump Physics would need a closer look. Trade implications can get even nastier.

Has anyone really taken a good look at this?

Some insight and thoughts would be good before I jump in with both feet.

 

[parmasson]

How about a reworking of the way jump is worded for 3D? Jump 1 means the ability to jump over one parsec (hex) to your destination? (Origination hex, jumped hex, destination hex). Terminology is preserved with a rule tweak. Makes the free trader more useful and the maps easier to navigate. I use a homebrew starmap with the OTU history and setting. My sector is just not on the big map.

I am apologize for sounding like a one issue voter here but it really is the only thing that really bugs me about the OTU.

I guess on reflection it would be a bit of work and would change a number of things.
I don’t know about anyone else but I would be willing to pay extra for it as an add-on module.

 

[Laryssa]

Well you know that about 90% of all stars are red dwarfs. If you assume that each subsector map shows only hexes with habitable or likely habitable planets with stars that are class K and higher, you are leaving out 90% of the stars.

Here's what you can do. Assume that each subsector is 10 parsecs deep and take each hex with a planet in it and roll a 1d10 for the numbers 1 through 10, this will tell you how deep into the subsector the world is.

I have some planets you can play around with.
These are the middle settled subsectors on a full sector map that I'm working on. If you don't like the American, you can substitute your own names if you like. Its simple, take the planet Alabama for instance:

0914 Alabama Am Garden 6,500 miles 0.74g Thin 30% Normal -1 7 4,500,000 A RepDem 5 11 4.0

Roll a 1d10 and add another 2 digits to the hex number. I'll roll a 1d10 and I got 2, so now the new entry for the planet Alabama is:

091402 Alabama Am Garden 6,500 miles 0.74g Thin 30% Normal -1 7 4,500,000 A RepDem 5 11 4.0

And I can now go down the hex column rolling a 1d6 and every time I roll a 5 or a 6 I place a red Dwarf (Class M) in that hex.

091401 Red Dwarf (Class M)
091402 Alabama Am Garden 6,500 miles 0.74g Thin 30% Normal -1 7 4,500,000 A RepDem 5 11 4.0
091403 Red Dwarf (Class M)
091404 empty
091405 empty
091406 empty
091407 empty
091408 empty
091409 Red Dwarf (Class M)
091410 empty
And you delete all the hexes that say empty listing only those that have something in them. There is nothing particualry interesting in a red dwarf system, so its just listed as a red dwarf, its a place to jump to on the way to someplace else.

The America Sector
The United States of America
California Subsector Data Table
Hex Name Alg Type Dia Grav Atmosphere Hydr Climate RVM AFF Population Port Government CR TL Trade WTN
0913 Unexplored Non Glacier 6,000 miles 0.68g Toxic 0% Frozen +0 0
0914 Alabama Am Garden 6,500 miles 0.74g Thin 30% Normal -1 7 4,500,000 A RepDem 5 11 4.0
0916 Alaska Am Garden 6,500 miles 0.74g Thin 50% Chilly +0 8 660,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag 3.5
0919 Unexplored Non Greenhouse 7,500 miles 0.95g Suffocating 0% Infernal +2 2

1011 Arizona Am Garden 6,500 miles 0.82g Standard-Tainted 10% Hot -2 4 5,700,000 A RepDem 5 11 4.0
1012 Unexplored Non Garden 7,000 miles 0.88g Very Thin-Tainted 0% Chilly +0 0
1015 Unexplored Non Barren 1,500 miles 0.17g _0% Cool -1 -1
1017 Unexplored Non Barren 2,500 miles 0.25g _ 0% Cool +0 0
1019 Arkansas Am Garden 7,000 miles 0.97g Thin-Tainted 80% Cool +0 7 2,800,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag 4.0

1111 Unexplored Non Barren 1,500 miles 0.15g _ 0% Frozen +1 1
1115 Unexplored Non Garden 7,500 miles 0.85g Very Thin 40% Cool +0 0
1116 California Am Garden 8,000 miles 1.0g Dense 30% Normal +0 9 36,000,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ri 4.5

1214 New Terra Am Garden 7,900 miles 1.0g Standard 72% Normal +1 10 1,000,000 A RepDem CR 5 TL 11 Ri 4.0
1220 Colorado Am Garden 7,000 miles 0.79g Thin 40% Normal +0 8 4,600,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag 4.0

1316 Connecticut Am Garden 6,000 miles 0.76g Dense 40% Cool +0 9 3,500,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.0
1320 Unexplored Non Pre-Garden 6,000 miles 0.68g Suffocating 80% Normal +1 1

1414 Delaware Am Garden 5,000 miles 0.82g Thin 40% Chilly -1 7 830,000 B RepDem 5 11 Ag 3.5
1416 Indiana Am Garden 5,500 miles 0.62g Dense 60% Cool +0 9 6,200,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.0
1419 Unexplored Non Barren 1,000 miles 0.11g _ 0% Frozen +0 0
1511 Georgia Am Garden 8,000 miles 1.0g Dense-Tainted 30% Warm +0 8 8,800,000 B RepDem 5 11 4.0
1512 Illinois Am Garden 7,500 miles 0.85g Standard 40% Normal +0 9 13,000,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.5
1513 Idaho Am Garden 6,000 miles 0.76g Dense 0% Tropical +0 7 1,400,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ri 4.0
1516 Unexplored Non Garden 7,000 miles 0.88g Very Thin 10% Cool +0 0
1519 Hawaii Am Garden 6,500 miles 0.74g Standard 80% Normal -1 8 1,300,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.0

1616 Florida Am Garden 7,000 miles 0.88g Very Dense 70% Hot +0 7 17,000,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.5

Lincoln Subsector
1714 Iowa Am Garden 6,500 miles 0.82g Dense-Tainted 70% Normal +0 8 3,000,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag 4.0
1715 Kansas Am Garden 5,500 miles 0.62g Standard-Tainted 20% Cold -1 5 2,700,000 A RepDem 5 11 4.0

1811 Kentucky Am Garden 6,000 miles 0.76g Standard-Tainted 10% Tropical +0 7 4,100,000 A RepDem 5 11 4.0
1812 Maine Am Garden 6,000 miles 0.76g Standard 60% Cool +0 9 1,300,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.0
1817 Unexplored Non Barren 2,000 miles 0.23g _ 0% Infernal +1 1

1914 Maryland Am Garden 7,000 miles 0.88g Thin-Tainted 50% Warm +0 7 5,600,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag 4.0
1918 Unexplored Non Pre-Garden 6,500 miles 0.74g Suffocating 30% Warm +1 1

2012 Unexplored Non Barren 1,500 miles 0.15g _ 0% Cool +0 0
2017 Unexplored Non Barren 1,000 miles 0.10g _ 0% Normal +0 0

2112 Louisiana Garden 5,500 miles 0.69g Standard 60% Tropical +0 9 4,500,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.0
2113 Unexplored Garden 8,000 miles 1.0g Very Thin-Tainted 50% Normal +0 0

2213 Massachusetts Garden 7,000 miles 0.97g Thin-Tainted 50% Normal -1 4 6,400,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag 4.0

2313 Michigan Garden 5,500 miles 0.62g Standard 50% Cool -1 8 10,000,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.0

New York Subsector
1022 Unexplored Garden 7,500 miles 0.85g Very Thin-Tainted 80% Chilly +0 0
1025 Missouri Garden 7,000 miles 0.79g Dense-Tainted 50% Warm +0 7 5,800,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.0
1030 Unexplored Garden 6,000 miles 0.76g Very Thin 50% Cool +0 0

1127 Unexplored Barren 2,000 miles 0.25g _ 0% Infernal +0 0
1128 Unexplored Garden 6,000 miles 0.61g Very Thin-Tainted 50% Cool +2 2
1129 Unexplored Garden 6,500 miles 0.90g Very Thin 80% Chilly +0 0

1222 Mississippi Garden 6,500 miles 0.90g Standard 60% Chilly +0 9 2,900,000 C RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.0
1228 Unexplored Garden 7,000 miles 0.79g Very Thin 10% Normal +0 0

1321 Minnesota Garden 7,000 miles 0.88g Standard-Tainted 30% Warm +0 8 5,100,000 A RepDem 5 11 4.0
1329 Montana Garden 6,500 miles 0.74g Standard-Tainted 60% Cool +1 9 930,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag 4.0

1425 Nevada Garden 8,000 miles 1.0g Standard 60% Warm -1 8 2,300,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.0
1426 Nebraska Garden 7,000 miles 0.71g Dense 80% Cold +0 8 1,700,000 B RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.0
1430 Unexplored Asteroid Belt _ 0% Frozen -2 -2

1522 New York Garden 5,500 miles 0.62g Standard 60% Warm +0 9 19,000,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.5
1524 Unexplored Asteroid Belt _ 0% Frozen +2 2
1525 Unexplored Barren 1,000 miles 0.10g _ 0% Infernal +0 0
1529 Unexplored Pre-Garden 7,000 miles 0.88g Suffocating 60% Tropical +0 0

1626 New Jersey Garden 7,000 miles 0.79g Thin-Tainted 80% Cool +0 7 8,700,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag 4.0
1628 New Mexico Garden 6,500 miles 0.74g Thin-Tainted 30% Tropical +0 7 1,900,000 A RepDem 5 11 4.0
1630 New Hampshire Garden 6,000 miles 0.76g Dense 20% Cool +0 8 1,300,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ri 4.0

Washington Subsector
1723 Carolina (North/South) Garden 6,000 miles 0.76g Thin 20% Warm +0 7 8,500,000/4,200,000 B/A RepDem 5/5 11/11 4.0/4.0
1725 Dakota (North/South) Garden 6,500 miles 0.74g Standard 10% Cool -1 7 630,000/770,000 A/B RepDem 5/5 11/11 Ri 3.5/3.5
1726 Ohio Garden 6,500 miles 0.82g Thin-Tainted 60% Chilly +0 7 11,000,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag 4.5
1727 Unexplored Garden 7,000 miles 0.88g Very Thin-Tainted 60% Cool +0 0
1729 Oregon Garden 6,500 miles 0.90g Thin 60% Cool +0 8 4,000,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag 4.0

1822 Oklahoma Garden 5,500 miles 0.62g Dense 50% Tropical +0 9 3,500,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.0
1823 Pennsylvania Garden 7,000 miles 0.71g Thin 90% Warm +1 9 12,000,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag 4.5
1824 Washington Garden 6,500 miles 0.74g Dense 20% Chilly +0 8 6,200,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ri 4.0
1827 Unexplored Asteroid Belt _ 0% Cold +1 1
1828 Texas Garden 6,000 miles 0.83g Dense 60% Normal +0 9 22,000.000 B RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.5

1921 Unexplored Desert (Rock) 4,000 miles 0.45g Trace 0% Infernal +0 0
1922 Utah Garden 7,000 miles 0.88g Dense-Tainted 20% Warm +0 7 2,400,000 B RepDem 5 11 4.0
1923 Unexplored Desert (Rock) 3,500 miles 0.44g Trace 0% Cool +0 0
1924 Unexplored Garden 6,000 miles 0.76g Very Thin-Tainted 50% Warm +0 0
1925 Unexplored Garden 7,000 miles 0.97g Very Thin-Tainted 0% Normal +0 0

2024 Unexplored Garden 7,000 miles 0.97g Very Thin-Tainted 80% Warm +0 0
2028 Vermont Garden 7,500 miles 0.76g Thin 70% Cool +1 9 620,000 B RepDem 5 11 Ag 4.0
2030 Unexplored Garden 7,000 miles 0.88g Very-Thin 90% Normal +0 0

2124 Virginia (/West) Garden 7,000 miles 0.79g Dense-Tainted 60% Normal -1 7 7,500,000/1,800,000 B/A RepDem 5/5 11/11 Ag 4.0/4.0

2221 Rhode Island Garden 6,500 miles 0.82g Thin-Tainted 30% Tropical +0 7 1,000,000 A RepDem 5 11 4.0
2225 Unexplored Pre-Garden 7,000 miles 0.79g Toxic 60% Warm +0 0
2230 Unexplored Desert (Ice) 1,500 miles 0.15g Corrosive 30% Frozen +0 0

2326 Wisconsin Garden 7,000 miles 0.88g Thin-Tainted 20% Cool +1 7 5,500,000 B RepDem 5 11 4.0
2327 Wyoming Garden 7,000 miles 0.79g Standard 50% Cool +0 9 500,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 3.5
2328 Columbia Garden 7,000 miles 0.97g Standard 40% Warm -1 8 550,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 3.5

2422 Puerto Rico Garden 8,500 miles 0.96g Standard 50% Tropical +1 9 3,900,000 B RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.0
2425 Unexplored Desert (Rock) 4,500 miles 0.45g Trace 0% Infernal +0 0
2426 Guam Garden 9,000 miles 0.90g Thin 20% Warm +0 7 170,000 B RepDem 5 11 3.5

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
With the new Astro Synthesis we now have a tool that will allow rapid system generation, with Traveller values. Even the import of existing Traveller Data is possible. All of this on a nice 3D map.

Is it a free program? If not, how much does it cost? What I was looking for was a simple program that'll contain all GLISE data in 3D, allow you to select your jump destination from a system, and, if possible, store Traveller data. If Astro Synthesis is free, I'll get it ASAP; otherwise all I'm looking for is a simple navigation program (I know that there are web-based programming languages that allow you to build a 3D map).

a 3D universe without a navigation software of some kind seems to me as a headache. Flat maps exist for a reason - to make the Referee's and the Players' lives easy when there is no such software around (I don't think such a program would've been possible in the 1970's anyway, atleast with gamer-accessible resources).

 

[Berg]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
What I was looking for was a simple program that'll contain all GLISE data in 3D, allow you to select your jump destination from a system, and, if possible, store Traveller data

Here is a link to a bunch of 3-D Starmaps Software

Most is Free

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
With the new Astro Synthesis we now have a tool that will allow rapid system generation, with Traveller values. Even the import of existing Traveller Data is possible. All of this on a nice 3D map.

Is it a free program? If not, how much does it cost? What I was looking for was a simple program that'll contain all GLISE data in 3D, allow you to select your jump destination from a system, and, if possible, store Traveller data. If Astro Synthesis is free, I'll get it ASAP; otherwise all I'm looking for is a simple navigation program (I know that there are web-based programming languages that allow you to build a 3D map).

a 3D universe without a navigation software of some kind seems to me as a headache. Flat maps exist for a reason - to make the Referee's and the Players' lives easy when there is no such software around (I don't think such a program would've been possible in the 1970's anyway, atleast with gamer-accessible resources). </font>[/QUOTE]It isn't free but it is reasonably priced and will do exactly what you are looking at doing. You can do navigation with it. It will either import data (And the GLISE data is available for it.) With a little tweaking you could even import Traveller System data to it, or use the Traveller System to generate the systems. 3D navigation is a dream in it. It calculates distances, etc. YOu can generate a J6 map for a system in a heartbeat, provided you have a definition for J6 in the first place.

You can find out more on NBOS Astrosynthesis webpage.

All of the old headaches are gone in terms of dealing with a 3D map. Oh I almost forgot, if you happen to have Fractal Terrains from Pro Fantasy it will use that to generate your world maps within your systems. (Which can then using CC2 and Cosmographer, generate nice Traveller World Maps. So with this, powerful, combination all of your Traveller Referee Mapping headaches are gone.

However unless I can figure out a way to convert Jump Drive in a consistent and reasonable way that retains the flavor of Traveller it will just collect dust on my HD.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by thrash:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kurega Gikur:
How about a reworking of the way jump is worded for 3D?

One method that preserves the number of systems reachable by each jump number is:

Jump distance = (Jn + 2) * 0.6 pc

That is:

Jump-1 = 1.8 pc
Jump-2 = 2.4 pc
Jump-3 = 3.0 pc
Jump-4 = 3.6 pc
Jump-5 = 4.2 pc
Jump-6 = 4.8 pc

This keeps the drives' commercial usefulness relatively about the same. It also helps explain why the Xboat network is still Jump-4: diminishing returns. </font>[/QUOTE]The problem is that there isn't much advantage in running anything over J2 with your system. (Especially with the fuel consumption on the higher JDrives.) Your Military vessels, especially major combatants will be J2-J3.

Actually I like the MT answer for why the XBoat Network is J4. It is to give the Government an advantage in terms of Information management. I personally was looking at

J1 = 0-1.9pc
J2 = 2-2.9pc
J3 = 3-3.9pc etc.

I first looked at simply doubling the range but that got really nasty in a hurry.

It keeps a speed advantage with specialized couriers and Military vessels keeps the lower Jump vessels commercially viable, but it does tend to cause you to either expand the Imperium or accept drastically reduced communication/military response times.

On most OTU Sector maps there are around 400-500 systems. On Most OTU Sector maps the average system density is about 1 per 2.5pc. And on most OTU Sector Maps a J2 ship can eventually get almost anywhere. For example in the Spinward Marches there were only about 4 systems, out of 440, that a J2 ship couldn't get to (Eventually).

I want to keep the feel and I really want to keep the rich history. (Otherwise I might as well just look for a new set of rules.)

 

[BetterThanLife]

Generating the Map isn't the issue. (The software does that rather nicely.) Dealing with the implications of taking it 3D is the problem. Though I like the concept. How does Jump Drive work in your Universe? If you have a planet that is 8 PC below the base and the nearest planet is 1PC Coreward but only one pc below the base?

Originally posted by Laryssa:
Well you know that about 90% of all stars are red dwarfs. If you assume that each subsector map shows only hexes with habitable or likely habitable planets with stars that are class K and higher, you are leaving out 90% of the stars.

Here's what you can do. Assume that each subsector is 10 parsecs deep and take each hex with a planet in it and roll a 1d10 for the numbers 1 through 10, this will tell you how deep into the subsector the world is.

I have some planets you can play around with.
These are the middle settled subsectors on a full sector map that I'm working on. If you don't like the American, you can substitute your own names if you like. Its simple, take the planet Alabama for instance:

0914 Alabama Am Garden 6,500 miles 0.74g Thin 30% Normal -1 7 4,500,000 A RepDem 5 11 4.0

Roll a 1d10 and add another 2 digits to the hex number. I'll roll a 1d10 and I got 2, so now the new entry for the planet Alabama is:

091402 Alabama Am Garden 6,500 miles 0.74g Thin 30% Normal -1 7 4,500,000 A RepDem 5 11 4.0

And I can now go down the hex column rolling a 1d6 and every time I roll a 5 or a 6 I place a red Dwarf (Class M) in that hex.

<SNIP>

 

[JAFARR]

I think I'll stick with 2D for now, but thanks for introducing us to NBOS software. I looked over these programs and think they could be highly useful to most of us. Hopefully I will have my newer computer (read "My PIII 600mhz is getting outdated.) out of layway soon and can purchase several of them.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by thrash:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
The problem is that there isn't much advantage in running anything over J2 with your system. (Especially with the fuel consumption on the higher JDrives.)

Actually, there is: the average separation among stars in the local part of the galaxy is 2.5 pc (8.3 ly), or slightly greater than Jump-2. Jump-2 ships will often have to follow tortuous routes to get where they are going, if they can get there at all. Jump-3 ships have far fewer problems, and Jump-4+ should have hardly any at all. Most canonical warships are Jump-4.

Making stellar masses necessary to anchor jump routes (i.e., eliminating deep space jumps) enforces these relationships, and is a useful modification for Traveller in 3D. </font>[/QUOTE]I thought about that after I wrote it. On a 2D map there is very little use for the increase but getting back to the 3D map, where this is intended anyway, it gives a much bigger range of choices without seriously inflating the size of the Imperium. My way either seriously inflates the size of the Imperium or grossly reduces communication time.

So how big, using your system would the 3rd Imperium be? Approximately of course. And would you go Spherical or more of a cube. Spherical might make more sense, but a Cube is easier to divide into Domains, Sectors, and Subsectors.

Obviously you have put more thought into this over more years than I have.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
I think I'll stick with 2D for now, but thanks for introducing us to NBOS software. I looked over these programs and think they could be highly useful to most of us. Hopefully I will have my newer computer (read "My PIII 600mhz is getting outdated.) out of layway soon and can purchase several of them.

Hi Andy,
Actually I was amazed how well Astro 1 ran on my old PIII 500mhz.

My game is played online. Graphics are the order of the day. I have found that it helps to give the players something to look at and keep their attention, since they aren't actually looking at you, or warming up their dice.

If there was a neat program that generated world maps, orbital diagrams, with neat pics of planets, showed the sector and subsector map well then I would probably stick to 2D but since I haven't found one that works well. Scans of the Sector Maps are absolutely huge, or so low res that they are useless, etc. I need more than a generic bar, office, the interior of their ship and a couple of interesting 3D renders of ships. This way they get to see new stuff all the time.

Silly isn't it? I want to use the software simply because I can't get software designed to do the job, or put the same tools together.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by thrash:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
So how big, using your system would the 3rd Imperium be?

Using GT: First In, there is one habitable planet per 15.8 systems and one system per 11.5 cubic parsecs. For 11,000 habitable worlds, this results in an Imperium of a little under 2 million cubic parsecs. I set it up as an oblate spheroid, 200 x 150 x 150 pc, which allows 10% for internal voids and irregular boundaries. At 3.6 pc per Jump-4, it takes at least 10-12 months for an Xboat message to cross this Imperium from one side to the other, or from the center to the frontier and back. </font>[/QUOTE]Ack! And I thought using a sphere would be a mess when it came to assigning Domains, sectors and subsectors.

By the way, habitated and habitable are two different things. More than half of the inhabited worlds of the Imperium are not what one would normally consider habitable.

 

[Laryssa]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
[QB] Generating the Map isn't the issue. (The software does that rather nicely.) Dealing with the implications of taking it 3D is the problem. Though I like the concept. How does Jump Drive work in your Universe? If you have a planet that is 8 PC below the base and the nearest planet is 1PC Coreward but only one pc below the base?

The jump drives work the same way as in the old Traveller except they now can move in 3 directions as opposed to two. This means that some starsystems are now farther apart than they were under the old 2D maps, and that is where the Red Dwarfs come in handy, they act as stepping stones to get to the planets you want, the habitable ones. About 90% of all stars out there are red dwarfs. Red Dwarfs are though of as unsuitable places to place habitable worlds, so under this system were assuming that all Traveller mainworld entries have stars that are main sequence type K, G or F stars. The stars more massive than type F are included anyway on the typical 2d Traveller star maps as they are so rare that it makes no difference whether they are included or not. Red Dwarfs however act as stepping stones To go from a type K system to a type G with main worlds in each, one would typically jump to a red dwarf system, and then to another red dwarf sytem and then finally to the type G system, with the mainworld in it that is of interest. Red dwarfs have gas giants too, and the chances of them having gas giants are about the same as in a system with a mainworld in it. The habitability zone of a red dwarf is so small that its unlikely that a planet would fall within in it, and if it did, the planet would be tidally locked, and only a small protion of the planet's surface would be habitable. So I figure instead of having 90% of all traveller worlds being tidally locked with red dwarf primaries, why not 3D it, give each subsector 10 parsecs of depth and fill in all empty spaces with red dwarfs at the same density as the original 2D subsector. With the red dwarf systems containing nothing useful except as a place to jump to and perhaps a gas giant to skim for refueling. in a word, Red Dwarfs are "stepping stones" in a 3D map. You might represent this by only showing the mainworlds in the hex collumns and then in the side information list each hex in the Subsector and in the information for each hex collumn list the main world first with collumn depth followed by all the Red Dwarf systems that share the Hex column with an indicator as to whether they have gas giants, or if there is no main world in that hex column simply list the red dwarfs and the gas giants that may or may not accompany them.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by thrash:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
By the way, habitated and habitable are two different things. More than half of the inhabited worlds of the Imperium are not what one would normally consider habitable.

44% atmosphere types other than 4-9, actually, according to Book 3. I chose "habitable" deliberately, for two reasons. One is to produce the volume needed to preserve communications lags. The other is that Book 3 population figures are nonsense, since there is no correlation with habitability whatsoever. Correcting this implies that only habitable worlds are likely to have sizeable, permanent populations. </font>[/QUOTE]Size is another issue, when it comes to habitable, as is hydrosphere. As far as long term high populations, that would depend on what was there and the reason anyone would go there in the first place. Glisten, for example is a very rich asteroid belt. Therefore there is a reason for a population. I find the population vs. the starport type being interesting. Then there is the case of RETINAE (or however it is spelled. High Pop, decent tech, class E starport, no water and no gas giants. Jump-2 from anywhere. I know how the population got so big, it is all the people that got stranded there over the years.

 

[JAFARR]

BetterThanLife,
Even with the computer's aid, I'll stick to 2D just because of the simplicity. The bit about jumping to 2 red dwarf systems between desired stops means 2 wilderness refuelings, 2 more weeks in jump as well as 2 more jumps to be made. We are effectivly reducing income by at least half if not more. There has to be some amount reality to make a SiFi game remain true to it's basis. There also has to be a certain amount of playability to keep it a game. As someone else has stated in this thread, the purpose of 2D was for playability, not reality. AD 2300 had a 3D system that worked within reason, but it also had a much more limited area of space to cover. After all, wasn't the matter of playability what got MT the most critizem?

 

[Laryssa]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
BetterThanLife,
Even with the computer's aid, I'll stick to 2D just because of the simplicity. The bit about jumping to 2 red dwarf systems between desired stops means 2 wilderness refuelings, 2 more weeks in jump as well as 2 more jumps to be made. We are effectivly reducing income by at least half if not more. There has to be some amount reality to make a SiFi game remain true to it's basis. There also has to be a certain amount of playability to keep it a game. As someone else has stated in this thread, the purpose of 2D was for playability, not reality. AD 2300 had a 3D system that worked within reason, but it also had a much more limited area of space to cover. After all, wasn't the matter of playability what got MT the most critizem?

My system is not completely 3D, the subsectors are only 10 parsecs deep, and I don't show the red dwarfs on the map. If it weren't for the depth, I'd have no place to put the red dwarfs, or else 90% of the Traveller Worlds would have to be Red Dwarf Worlds that are tidally locked with their primary and very close in to their suns, sometimes less than a million miles. On just about every plant the PCs land on they'll see a huge bloated red run hovering permanently over the horizon. There would be a narrow band of habitable area, toward the sun it becomes infernally hot and away from the sun it becomes freezing cold in a permanent night. What would be unusual would be when the sun wasn't red.

If the long travel times bother you, well were changing one thing about Traveller by making it 3d, I see no reason why you couldn't change another by reducing the time spent in Jump. Lets say the duration of a Jump is 2 days instead of 7, then the average time between destinations might average around 7 days.

 

[Laryssa]

Here is a 3d map of a sub sector preceded by a timeline. I've included red dwarf data including whether each system has a gas giant (GG) or no gas Giant (NG).
The America Sector – A History
To c. 900 B.C. Vilani Exploration
c. 900 B.C. – c. A.D. 500 The Consolidation Wars
c. A.D. 500 and later The Ziru Sirka
c. A.D. 2000 – 2024 The Treaty of New York
A.D. 2024-2050 The Quest for Stability
A.D. 2050 – 2088 The First Colonies
A.D. 2088 – 2098 The Jump Drive Invented
A.D. 2098 – 2114 The Contact Era – Terrans meet Vilani
A.D. 2114 – 2122 The First Interstellar War
A.D. 2124 The Development of First Jump-2 Drive.
The Phoenix Dawn, an American financed interstellar Ark, is retrofitted with an experimental Jump-2 drive.
A.D. 2125 The Phoenix Dawn Departs the Solar System in search of a Pre-Garden World to be terraformed
A.D. 2125-2134 The Second Interstellar War. The Phoenix Crew and passengers go into low berths.
A skeleton crew working in rotating shifts in and out of cold sleep operates the ship’s systems.
The majority of the ships occupants stay in low berths to conserve life support resources.
Also frozen in cold sleep are samples of genetic material from an exhaustive sampling of Terra’s species.
Even frozen animals and pests like mosquitoes, and flies are kept in frozen storage, down to bacteria.
Everything that was needed to reconstruct Terra’s biosphere was stored in the ships cold watch.
A small biosphere was maintained in the ship’s interior.
A.D. 2937 New Terra Discovered
Over a period of 812 years thousands of probes were dispatched by the Phoenix dawn.
By 2937 a pre-garden planet was discovered with seven continents in approximate positions matching those of Terra, the planet also orbits a G2 V star, has a similar orbital period, rotational period and axial tilt as Terra.
New Terra’s atmosphere is initially suffocating, but work is done by seeding the oceans with genetically modified Terran plants and algae to convert the atmosphere into a breathable untainted mixture for humans.
This work is done by robots and human crews rotated in and out of low berths.
A.D. 4000 The first milestone is reached.
A standard tainted atmosphere is created, various advanced life forms are introduced to remove the taint.
Forests are grown and an ecosystem is established modeled after that on Terra.
A.D. 5200 The taint is completely removed from the atmosphere, the forests and other biomes have reached maturity.
It is determined that the ecosystem established is stable after many fits and starts.
The vast majority of the human passengers and crew are finally brought out of their low berths and revived.
For the majority of those revived, this is there first look at New Terra and their first awareness since they were put under in 2125. The United States of America is reestablished in this new sector, which they promptly name the American sector.
There were other similar efforts established by other nations of Terra in 2125, but none of them took so long to bring to fruition as this one. The fates of the other Phoenix missions are unknown to these present Americans.
A.D. 5200 – 5631 Other planets are colonized in the four inner subsectors, these planets are named after the states of the United
(Imperial 1110) States and US territories.

The America Sector
The United States of America
California Subsector Data Table
Hex-Column-Level Name Alg Type Dia Grav Atmosphere Hydr Climate RVM AFF Population Port Government CR TL Trade WTN
091303 Unexplored Non Glacier 6,000 miles 0.68g Toxic 0% Frozen +0 0
091409 Alabama Am Garden 6,500 miles 0.74g Thin 30% Normal -1 7 4,500,000 A RepDem 5 11 4.0
091602 Alaska Am Garden 6,500 miles 0.74g Thin 50% Chilly +0 8 660,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag 3.5
091908 Unexplored Non Greenhouse 7,500 miles 0.95g Suffocating 0% Infernal +2 2

101108 Arizona Am Garden 6,500 miles 0.82g Standard-Tainted 10% Hot -2 4 5,700,000 A RepDem 5 11 4.0
101202 Unexplored Non Garden 7,000 miles 0.88g Very Thin-Tainted 0% Chilly +0 0
101505 Unexplored Non Barren 1,500 miles 0.17g _0% Cool -1 -1
101707 Unexplored Non Barren 2,500 miles 0.25g _ 0% Cool +0 0
101906 Arkansas Am Garden 7,000 miles 0.97g Thin-Tainted 80% Cool +0 7 2,800,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag 4.0

111108 Unexplored Non Barren 1,500 miles 0.15g _ 0% Frozen +1 1
111504 Unexplored Non Garden 7,500 miles 0.85g Very Thin 40% Cool +0 0
111608 California Am Garden 8,000 miles 1.0g Dense 30% Normal +0 9 36,000,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ri 4.5

121405 New Terra Am Garden 7,900 miles 1.0g Standard 72% Normal +1 10 1,000,000 A RepDem CR 5 TL 11 Ri 4.0
122009 Colorado Am Garden 7,000 miles 0.79g Thin 40% Normal +0 8 4,600,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag 4.0

131608 Connecticut Am Garden 6,000 miles 0.76g Dense 40% Cool +0 9 3,500,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.0
132006 Unexplored Non Pre-Garden 6,000 miles 0.68g Suffocating 80% Normal +1 1

141405 Delaware Am Garden 5,000 miles 0.82g Thin 40% Chilly -1 7 830,000 B RepDem 5 11 Ag 3.5
141609 Indiana Am Garden 5,500 miles 0.62g Dense 60% Cool +0 9 6,200,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.0
141903 Unexplored Non Barren 1,000 miles 0.11g _ 0% Frozen +0 0
151104 Georgia Am Garden 8,000 miles 1.0g Dense-Tainted 30% Warm +0 8 8,800,000 B RepDem 5 11 4.0
151202 Illinois Am Garden 7,500 miles 0.85g Standard 40% Normal +0 9 13,000,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.5
151310 Idaho Am Garden 6,000 miles 0.76g Dense 0% Tropical +0 7 1,400,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ri 4.0
151601 Unexplored Non Garden 7,000 miles 0.88g Very Thin 10% Cool +0 0
151910 Hawaii Am Garden 6,500 miles 0.74g Standard 80% Normal -1 8 1,300,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.0

161607 Florida Am Garden 7,000 miles 0.88g Very Dense 70% Hot +0 7 17,000,000 A RepDem 5 11 Ag, Ri 4.5

Red Dwarfs
0911.. 01 (NG) _______ 03 (GG) _______ _______ 06 (GG) 07 (GG) 08 (GG) _______ _______
0912.. 01 (NG) _______ 03 (GG) _______ _______ 06 (GG) _______ _______ _______ 10 (GG)
0913.. _______ _______ 03 Unex _______ _______ _______ 07 (GG) 08 (GG) _______ 10 (GG)
0914.. _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ 09 Alab _______
0915.. 01 (GG) _______ 03 (GG) 04 (GG) 05 (NG) _______ 07 (GG) 08 (GG) 09 (GG) 10 (GG)
0916.. 01 (GG) 02 Alas _______ 04 (GG) _______ _______ 07 (GG) 08 (GG) 09 (NG) _______
0917.. _______ _______ 03 (NG) 04 (GG) 05 (GG) _______ _______ _______ 09 (NG) _______
0918.. 01 (GG) 02 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ 09 (GG) _______
0919.. _______ 02 (NG) _______ _______ _______ 06 (GG) _______ 08 Unex 09 (NG) _______
0920.. 01 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ 08 (NG) _______ _______

1011.. 01 (GG) _______ 03 (NG) _______ _______ _______ 07 (GG) 08 Ariz 09 (NG) _______
1012.. _______ 02 Unex _______ 04 (GG) _______ _______ _______ 08 (NG) 09 (GG) _______
1013.. _______ _______ 03 (GG) 04 (NG) _______ _______ 07 (GG) _______ 09 (GG) _______
1014.. _______ _______ _______ 04 (GG) 05 (GG) 06 (GG) _______ _______ 09 (GG) 10 (GG)
1015.. _______ _______ 03 (GG) _______ 05 Unex _______ _______ 08 (GG) 09 (GG) 10 (NG)
1016.. _______ 02 (GG) 03 (GG) _______ _______ _______ 07 (GG) 08 (GG) 09 (GG) 10 (GG)
1017.. _______ _______ _______ _______ 05 (GG) _______ 07 Unex _______ _______ _______
1018.. 01 (GG) _______ _______ 04 (NG) _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______
1019.. 01 (GG) _______ 03 (NG) _______ 05 (NG) 06 Arka _______ _______ _______ _______
1020.. _______ _______ _______ _______ 05 (GG) _______ _______ 08 (GG) _______ 10 (GG)

1111.. _______ _______ _______ 04 (GG) _______ _______ _______ 08 Unex _______ 10 (GG)
1112.. _______ 02 (GG) _______ _______ 05 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______ _______
1113.. 01 (GG) 02 (NG) _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ 10 (GG)
1114.. _______ _______ _______ 04 (GG) _______ 06 (GG) _______ 08 (GG) 09 (GG) 10 (GG)
1115.. _______ _______ _______ 04 Unex _______ _______ 07 (GG) _______ _______ _______
1116.. 01 (GG) 02 (GG) _______ 04 (NG) 05 (GG) 06 (GG) 07 (GG) 08 Cali 09 (GG) _______
1117.. _______ _______ _______ 04 (NG) _______ _______ _______ 08 (GG) 09 (GG) 10 (NG)
1118.. 01 (NG) _______ _______ 04 (GG) 05 (GG) _______ _______ 08 (GG) _______ _______
1119.. _______ _______ _______ 04 (GG) 05 (GG) _______ 07 (GG) 08 (GG) 09 (GG) _______
1120.. _______ _______ 03 (GG) 04 (GG) 05 (NG) _______ _______ _______ 09 (GG) _______

1211.. 01 (GG) _______ 03 (GG) _______ _______ 06 (GG) 07 (GG) 08 (GG) _______ 10 (NG)
1212.. _______ _______ 03 (GG) _______ 05 (GG) 06 (GG) 07 (GG) 08 (NG) 09 (GG) _______
1213.. 01 (GG) _______ 03 (GG) _______ 05 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______ _______
1214.. _______ _______ _______ _______ 05 New 06 (GG) _______ _______ 09 (GG) 10 (GG)
1215.. _______ 02 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______
1216.. _______ _______ 03 (GG) 04 (GG) 05 (GG) _______ _______ _______ 09 (GG) 10 (GG)
1217.. _______ _______ _______ _______ 05 (NG) _______ 07 (GG) _______ _______ 10 (NG)
1218.. 01 (GG) 02 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______ 07 (GG) _______ _______ _______
1219.. _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ 06 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______
1220.. _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ 08 (GG) 09 Colo 10 (GG)

1311.. _______ _______ 03 (GG) 04 (NG) _______ _______ _______ 08 (GG) 09 (NG) _______
1312.. _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______
1313.. 01 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______ 06 (GG) _______ _______ 09 (GG) _______
1314.. 01 (GG) 02 (NG) _______ 04 (GG) _______ 06 (GG) _______ 08 (GG) _______ _______
1315.. 01 (GG) _______ 03 (GG) _______ 05 (GG) _______ 07 (GG) _______ 09 (GG) 10 (GG)
1316.. 01 (GG) _______ 03 (GG) _______ 05 (GG) _______ 07 (GG) 08 Conn _______ _______
1317.. 01 (GG) 02 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______
1318.. _______ _______ 03 (GG) 04 (GG) _______ _______ 07 (NG) _______ _______ 10 (NG)
1319.. _______ 02 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ 09 (GG) _______
1320.. _______ _______ _______ 04 (GG) _______ 06 Unex _______ 08 (GG) 09 (GG) _______

1411.. _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ 08 (GG) 09 (NG) 10 (NG)
1412.. _______ _______ 03 (GG) 04 (GG) 05 (GG) 06 (NG) _______ _______ 09 (GG) _______
1413.. _______ 02 (NG) _______ _______ 05 (GG) _______ 07 (GG) 08 (GG) _______ 10 (NG)
1414.. _______ _______ _______ _______ 05 Dela 06 (GG) _______ 08 (GG) 09 (NG) _______
1415.. _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ 06 (GG) _______ 08 (GG) 09 (GG) _______
1416.. _______ 02 (GG) _______ 04 (GG) 05 (NG) _______ 07 (GG) _______ 09 Indi 10 (GG)
1417.. _______ 02 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ 08 (GG) 09 (GG) _______
1418.. _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ 07 (GG) 08 (GG) 09 (NG) _______
1419.. _______ _______ 03 Unex _______ _______ 06 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______
1420.. _______ 02 (NG) _______ _______ 05 (GG) 06 (GG) _______ 08 (GG) 09 (GG) 10 (GG)

1511.. _______ 02 (GG) _______ 04 Geor _______ 06 (GG) _______ _______ 09 (GG) _______
1512.. _______ 02 Illi 03 (NG) _______ _______ 06 (GG) 07 (GG) _______ 09 (GG) _______
1513.. 01 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ 09 (GG) 10 Idah
1514.. _______ _______ 03 (GG) 04 (NG) _______ _______ _______ 08 (GG) 09 (NG) 10 (GG)
1515.. 01 (GG) 02 (GG) _______ _______ 05 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______ 10 (GG)
1516.. 01 Unex _______ _______ _______ 05 (GG) _______ _______ 08 (GG) _______ 10 (GG)
1517.. 01 (GG) 02 (GG) 03 (GG) _______ _______ 06 (GG) 07 (GG) 08 (GG) 09 (NG) _______
1518.. _______ _______ _______ _______ 05 (GG) _______ 07 (GG) _______ _______ _______
1519.. _______ _______ _______ 04 (GG) _______ _______ _______ 08 (GG) _______ 10 Hawa
1520.. 01 (GG) 02 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______

1611.. _______ _______ 03 (GG) _______ _______ 06 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______
1612.. 01 (NG) 02 (GG) _______ 04 (NG) _______ 06 (GG) _______ _______ 09 (GG) _______
1613.. 01 (GG) 02 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ 09 (GG) 10 (GG)
1614.. _______ 02 (GG) _______ 04 (GG) _______ _______ _______ 08 (GG) 09 (GG) _______
1615.. _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ 10 (GG)
1616.. _______ _______ _______ 04 (GG) _______ 06 (GG) 07 Flor 08 (GG) _______ 10 (GG)
1617.. 01 (GG) 02 (NG) _______ _______ _______ _______ 07 (GG) 08 (GG) 09 (GG) 10 (GG)
1618.. _______ 02 (GG) _______ 04 (GG) 05 (GG) _______ _______ 08 (GG) 09 (NG) _______
1619.. _______ _______ _______ _______ 05 (GG) 06 (GG) _______ _______ _______ _______
1620.. _______ _______ 03 (GG) _______ 05 (NG) _______ _______ _______ 09 (GG) _______

 

[Border Reiver]

i'll refer you all to Malenfant's attempts to make 3D space workable in 2D here. It mainly concentrates on realistic portrayal of near Sol space.

It also has a handy travel distance calculator for working out distances between layers.

Tom, is there not a better place for your "American" universe? It received both praise and criticism over at SJG but this thread is not the place for long histories and sector data. Why not start your own thread over at the IMTU forum? It will probably garner much more views and comments.

 

[Laryssa]

It was just an example of a 3d Subsector. I will start my own thread, or better yet, I would like to arrange for a downloadable setting. Basically what I want to do eventually is create an entire sector map of this sector, mayba Adobe or something. I'm not sure how to get a mpa up on this site. Has anyone done this sort of thing before?

I'm almost finished with the sector data. Soon I'll have all 16 subsectors plotted out. Doing this one subsector was alot of work, especially placing all the red dwarfs. You realize there are about 800 hexes to roll a die to determine system presence for. I rolled two other dice at the same time to determine Gas Giant presence with a 9- on 2d6 meaning that there is a Gas Giant and a 10+ meaning that their isn't. It is a whole lot of work just to do one subsector in 3d. I think I'll just do a 2d Sector map for now and complete the project.

Too bad they banned me over there. I was about to complete the Sector there, so I guess now I'll post it here. It uses the GURPS Interstellar Wars Format, but it is just physical descriptions of the planets, its not like the RPG system used matters. One does not engage a planet in combat after all.

SJGames treatment of me there has taken down my opinion of them a few notches, but it is their loss I suppose.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Laryssa:
It was just an example of a 3d Subsector. I will start my own thread, or better yet, I would like to arrange for a downloadable setting. Basically what I want to do eventually is create an entire sector map of this sector, mayba Adobe or something. I'm not sure how to get a mpa up on this site. Has anyone done this sort of thing before?

I'm almost finished with the sector data. Soon I'll have all 16 subsectors plotted out. Doing this one subsector was alot of work, especially placing all the red dwarfs. You realize there are about 800 hexes to roll a die to determine system presence for. I rolled two other dice at the same time to determine Gas Giant presence with a 9- on 2d6 meaning that there is a Gas Giant and a 10+ meaning that their isn't. It is a whole lot of work just to do one subsector in 3d. I think I'll just do a 2d Sector map for now and complete the project.

Too bad they banned me over there. I was about to complete the Sector there, so I guess now I'll post it here. It uses the GURPS Interstellar Wars Format, but it is just physical descriptions of the planets, its not like the RPG system used matters. One does not engage a planet in combat after all.

SJGames treatment of me there has taken down my opinion of them a few notches, but it is their loss I suppose.

If you are making stops in between, then it will destroy the Economics of Traveller. Further, communication times, Naval Deployment times, etc. go through the roof, so while you aren't taking up any more area, and could, in theory convert the whole 3I to 3D using this method, it wouldn't be playable in a general Traveller sense.

While I do appreciate the input, and you have obviously put lots of work into this. I can already create a 3D universe In fact yours might occupy 3 dimensions but is more of a 2.5D Universe. I am more interested in making a 3D Universe playable, keeping the Traveller feel, and if possible keeping the bulk of the OTU setting, than in how to give a flat map 3D coordinates.