Traveller, a strategic computer game?

[Bad_Syntax]

So I started converting 5th Frontier War to a computer game. I've put in all the tables, created processes to dynamically create counters, and drawn the map. Well, the map needs redone, and then some core gameplay/interface added, and it should work.

However, looking at Pocket Empires and Imperial Squadrons it really appears I don't need to limit myself to the 5th FW or even the Spinward Marches. The exact same game mechanics work everywhere, or even randomly generated sectors. I *think* there is enough there to create a full blown strategic traveller game. Perhaps start with a random sector, with 1 player per subsector, doing a turn a day or something. If not just turn based online play with others.

However, before I start going down a dead end, I had some questions from those of you who are more familiar with Traveller.

#1. Is it going to be boring as heck? Same fleet types, same unit types, just boring?

#2. Using pocket empires rules, building squadrons/battalions based on planet populations, and so forth, would it all work out and be playable?

#3. Are the Pocket Empires/Imperial Squadrons books "solid" enough to use as a framework, or are they so old and buggy that this wouldn't work anyway?

#4. Anything I'm not "seeing" with a project like this?

#5. What is up with traveller computer games licensing wise? If I write this and release it for free will the legal hounds be unleashed upon me?

Comments are welcome.

Thanks

 

[Fovean]

First off, good luck! I mean that in the best sense possible, really.

Second, if your're talking sectors and subsectors, turn length should probably be one week per turn since that is the minimum to move from system to system based on ship's range. If you drill down to system level (ie, operations within a single star system) then one day turns would be appropriate.

#1: not sure it's supported by canon, but the different races should have ships with different capabilities (aslan have faster ships but slower refueling, vargr move slower but have more punch, zhodani are equal but have better sensors, etc etc, just riffing here, please don't quote me on it ). Some variation and trade-offs are necessary or everyone will play only the "best" ships/fleets which may result in no real opponents.

#2: I don't know PE, can't really comment. But I do know that PE was set in Imperial space so again the alien races would need a different metric/philosophy to make the thing seem organic. Aslan are clan-based, Vargr are pack-based, Zhodani are supportive of individuals but the society is utmost, etc. These cultural differences should have an impact on the size/number of ships/fleets the races can field, or the effectiveness of them at least.

#3: Again, can't really comment. PE sounds very complicated but if hidden the background ala the Civilization games maybe it could work. Civ posits cities as the manufacturing/research/economic base and PE posits entire worlds, which would be exponentially more capable. I guess you just have to start modeling it and look for weird results. Fair warning: weird results are typical of Traveller in all incarnations...

#4: There's a lot of "canon" to look out for. You might get results that change the published history that many people know and love. The good thing about that is that the community can guide you and help shape your work. The bad thing is that much of the community won't want something new but rather the tried and true. Personally I think there should be a new paradigm, especially if the game works for user-defined or randomly generated areas of space. But if you want to model historical battles of the Third Imperium, say the Island Clusters campaigns or Fifth Frontier War, you'll most likely find yourself hobbled by inconsistent and contradicting canon reference materials.

#5: Can't comment at all re: computer licensing. I'm guessing it's all pretty FUBAR, Traveller never really took hold in the computer gaming world, despite its breadth and depth and wealth of history/environment. Hit up DonM on this forum for a real answer, or perhaps aramis can comment, he seems to be knowledgable on many licensing/legal concerns regarding publishing Traveller materials.

Again, best of luck. Traveller IMO deserves a console/online game worthy of Mass Effect or Eve but for some reason it's never happened... Traveller/AR seems to have died on the vine and Traveller 6 is currently a non-entity as well... but if you're willing to release your work for free under the not-for-profit fan-based licensing strictures, well, what are you waiting for?!

http://www.traveller-ar.com/
http://www.traveller6.com/
http://www.travellersrd.com/

 

[Bad_Syntax]

The game would play pretty much exactly like 5th Frontier War, except without reinforcements.

Fleets, regardless of race, would have the same 3 factors, attack/bombardment/defense as those counters. Well, plus streamlining, jump, and A/B/C/T/S for squadron type. I'm not inventing anything new here.

As I'd be using those T4 products I mentioned, everybody would be human, so no changes for other races.

It wouldn't be an RPG. You'd start with a world, or maybe a few, then expand out until you grew bored, as there would be no upper limit as to how much you could conquer.

Just not sure if it'd be fun, if not, well, why bother?

 

[Selandia]

I do not know the 5thFW computer game, I hope I do not say something OOB

I'll raise three points

How many players?
Possibilities of Alliances (Two entities forming a "team") or "Factions" (one Empire/confederation with multiple admirals)?

Diversified victory conditions? (beside trashing the oponents)

Technological advance during the time frame of the game?

have fun

Selandia

 

[McPerth]

#4. Anything I'm not "seeing" with a project like this?

One thing I always missed in most Traveller Based Strategic Games (FFW, TCS, etc) is the lack of planetary defenses. Once you achieve orbital superiority, your fleet is secure and you can begin unload troops unmolested by the so talked about deep meson guns, missiles, etc that may be among the planetary defenses (or, as in The Islands Campaign in TCS, you just put a fixed number of factors in orbit and the planet surrunds).

 

[Bad_Syntax]

Well if I do a turn per day, the number of users is limitless.

If I do a turn whenever all players say "process turn", there is a limit based on quickly all those folks say that.

I'm not sure how to create admirals, there is nothing in any traveller book I know of to create those. I guess I'd have to just create something.

An alliance would be based on your words, I would not do it any other way. If you want to turn your back on somebody, go ahead! However the fleets of an alliance wouldn't fight each other when they ended up in the same system.

Technology changes I believe are covered in pocket empires, but would only be determined once per year, so once per 52 turns. It wouldn't happen very fast, and may never happen, during a game. The game wouldn't be about technological advancement.

Victory points could simply be some formula based on the value of planets you hold. At any given point you'd know people's victory conditions.

5th frontier war has specific victory conditions from tallying up the planets you own, and such a method would work for a game I did as well.

As for planet defenses, I think that is simply incorporated within the battalions factor. However, nowhere have I seen a "space defense battalion" which would make that make sense.

 

[McPerth]

Long ago I planned a FFW double blind game with players representing aldmirals and all communications through the GM, so to keep with communications problems.

When planing it, my idea about aldmirals was to give them 4 factors:

1. Rank: used to determine who's in command when more than one fleet are toguether
2. Combat: used to determine initiative /surprise in combat. Only highest rank used
3. Diplomacy: used to obtain reinforcements from planetary forces and in general for relations with them
4. Intelligence: used to have better reports from intelligence (usually information not obteinable by regular means)

Hope that helps...

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Missed that.

Long ago I planned a FFW double blind game with players representing aldmirals and all communications through the GM, so to keep with communications problems.

When planing it, my idea about aldmirals was to give them 4 factors:

1. Rank: used to determine who's in command when more than one fleet are toguether
2. Combat: used to determine initiative /surprise in combat. Only highest rank used
3. Diplomacy: used to obtain reinforcements from planetary forces and in general for relations with them
4. Intelligence: used to have better reports from intelligence (usually information not obteinable by regular means)

Hope that helps...

I do wish I had been in on that, but such is life. I love the Admiral Factors. Very cool, simple and pretty much covers it.

So, what a about Damage Control? I ask as I never got a chance to play the 5FW so I don't know if it is included, but it should be.

As for PE, it has been a minute since I looked at it, but it should work. I am going to get back to messing with T5 for PE style gaming. Besides now I have some Hexes to improve so I need some Rules for that.

 

[sabredog]

I think admirals in FFW are already used this way. In fact, there are rules for using player characters the same way.

 

[McPerth]

I do wish I had been in on that, but such is life. I love the Admiral Factors. Very cool, simple and pretty much covers it.

It never reached above preliminary planning and some ideas, so don't complain.

 

[McPerth]

As for Planetary Defenses, let me quote you what I posted on another thread about adapting them to a FFW style game:

And it took nearly 8 months and many troops and losses (both, space and dirtside) to take it, something impossible in FFW, where once you have orbital superiority you can bomb the whole force and reduce it to nothing (or remants at least) in 4-5 turns (weeks), without any danger to your space forces (unless space forces show up), to then assault it and take the planet in 1-2 weeks.

As told in another thread, years ago I tryed to organize a multiple blind FFW. To overcome this "inaccuracy" with OTU history, I planed to use several zones in each planet, depending on size (modified by hidrography) and population, each zone having its own troops and had to be taken, with movement allowed between zones (I'm afraid I've lost the exact formulas and rules).

The planets also had their own space attack power to attack ships in orbit (and so supporting the landed troops). IIRC they had a space combat factor equivalent to (POP-5)^2 x (TL-11) to be used in the bombardement table.

So, Rhylanor (pop 9, TL 15) would have about 64 space factors to attack enemy fleets in orbit each turn. You could not attack it without expecting losses in your space forces.

As a comparison, see that Earth woud have (at me moment of Imperial assault, in 1002) 75 factors (pop 10, TL 14). In IE it had a total of 121 factors in its PD units, that are halved when firing ships in orbit, but used fully (if at range) against bombing units. Not too far from those numbers...

See also that by using this forumla, any planet with Pop 5- (too low population base to maintain them) or TL 11- (too low TL base) has 0 PD factors...

 

[GamingGlen]

So I started converting 5th Frontier War to a computer game. I've put in all the tables, created processes to dynamically create counters, and drawn the map. Well, the map needs redone, and then some core gameplay/interface added, and it should work.

However, looking at Pocket Empires and Imperial Squadrons it really appears I don't need to limit myself to the 5th FW or even the Spinward Marches. The exact same game mechanics work everywhere, or even randomly generated sectors. I *think* there is enough there to create a full blown strategic traveller game. Perhaps start with a random sector, with 1 player per subsector, doing a turn a day or something. If not just turn based online play with others.

However, before I start going down a dead end, I had some questions from those of you who are more familiar with Traveller.

#1. Is it going to be boring as heck? Same fleet types, same unit types, just boring?

#2. Using pocket empires rules, building squadrons/battalions based on planet populations, and so forth, would it all work out and be playable?

#3. Are the Pocket Empires/Imperial Squadrons books "solid" enough to use as a framework, or are they so old and buggy that this wouldn't work anyway?

#4. Anything I'm not "seeing" with a project like this?

#5. What is up with traveller computer games licensing wise? If I write this and release it for free will the legal hounds be unleashed upon me?

Comments are welcome.

Thanks

I keep thinking about doing this, also, but after opening up FFW, PE, IS and browsing for awhile I fall asleep (maybe I should do that again, with my current problem of not being able to go to sleep ) and put the books away, again. Since retiring from software design I just don't have the gumption to start programming again.

Now I use Excel spreadsheet extensively, with ship builders, star system generators, world generators, character generators, random NPC generators, agent mission generator and apply values of two characters (a team of agents) to see if successful, and, importantly for this discussion, generating the PE/IS economic factors in the world generator.

#1: this is a stragetic game.. leave the fancy graphical tactical ship combat stuff for other games. Illustrations can be added later anyway as fluff, get the core game working first.

#2: A lot of worlds generated using the standard rules do not generate any factors for squadrons, so you may want to increase the population and TLs of the worlds under a player's control so he has more than 2-3 BatRons and 3-5 CruRons.

#3: As far as I know, those books are still good.

#4: a) Player(s) quitting in the middle of the campaign. Some will quit after losing their first big battle (and most of their ships). You might want some sort of civil war/splintering of that PE when the Grand Poobah skips out with whatever treasury he can, gets booted from office, or dies from assassination or mobs due to disgrace of losing the fleet.

b) What do players do when not at war? Just "skip turn"?

c) With regard to b), what is the impetus for everyone going to war and staying at war until defeated or end of game? One thing I consider is that some peace settlement for all the factions involved has expired and everyone wants to expand their borders, perhaps first into "neutral zones" but of course it does not stop there.

d) What is the victory conditions that determines an overall winner and ends the game? I figure anyone controlling 51% of the planets probably will win (unless they have no fleet left). You might want to keep a score card of winners (or some points system: see NASCAR scoring for an idea).

e) How fast do you want the game to cycle (as in new starts)?

#5: I don't know anything about that.

Suggestion: start small.

 

[Baron]

Well, I'm not a gearhead, but I'd like to play a 5th Frontier War game if it wasn't complicated to play. Whatever that means!

Some games get boring after a while. I think the appeal would be the Traveller feel and setting.

Good luck, keep us posted!

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Too bad.

It never reached above preliminary planning and some ideas, so don't complain.

Well, I am still interested if you ever decide to try and run it.

 

[MCEvans]

"Planetary Defenses"

IIRC for FFW there are two defense factors:
1. Defense Battalions (Ground)
2. SDB's [System Defense Boats] (Space)

If an enemy fleet came in and you had some SDB's that was your first line and if a foothold was made on planet the SDB's could bombard that "beach head" as well as attack the ships in system.

My rule book for FFW is packed away so I may be mis-remembering about some of the SDB stuff

 

[McPerth]

IIRC for FFW there are two defense factors:
1. Defense Battalions (Ground)
2. SDB's [System Defense Boats] (Space)

If an enemy fleet came in and you had some SDB's that was your first line and if a foothold was made on planet the SDB's could bombard that "beach head" as well as attack the ships in system.

My rule book for FFW is packed away so I may be mis-remembering about some of the SDB stuff

Sure they are there, but:

1) Defense battalions are in planet but if bombed all of them are affected at once, as if they were in a single hex in IE. Once orbital supremacy has been acheved, they use to last just a few turns of bombardment before being exterminated (and if you planet has no atmosphere, they are thre just to show, as any uncontested ship in orbit with a beam factor makes the planet surrund).

2) SDB are not the fixed defenses. They are the non-jump spaceships defending the system. For one hand, they can also attack enemy ships not closing to the main planet (e.g. just refueling), OTOH they are quite easy to neutralize if you jump in with a powerful fleet. I must admit, though, that I also don't know of any strategic WWII game that depicts the Oslo defenses that sank the Blücher...

In any case, as I stated on other threads, there's no way to depict a planetary assault as IE in FFW rules, as no planetary invasion is going to last about 8 months (32 FFW turns).

 

[Bad_Syntax]

If I was to do this, it would stick to published rules as much as possible. This means Imperial Squadrons, as the rules are I think identical to those in 5th Frontier War (just without the order of battle and special units). Pocket Empires will fill in a bit where IS leaves something out. I found admiral creation rules and some other stuff that wasn't in 5FW in there as well.

After looking more I think this will be a MMO. Basically, it is a trivial difference to map 1 sector, or every sector ever mapped. So, every player creates a character, and a world is randomly given to them as a start. This includes a few squadrons, 1 admiral, and whatever forces are on that planet (they won't get garbage planets). They then plot their turns out, and eventually go and conquer opponents and stuff. There is 1 turn per day processed at 6am or so server time. If a player is gone, their fleets don't get orders, and they'll be easy pickings.

To fix it so 1 person doesn't kill everybody, I'll have a delay built in. Basically, based on your tech level and trade routes, there will be a delay before fleets even get orders. So, 5 jumps away with a 3 plotting factor admiral is an 8 turn delay on orders! So if your empire gets too big, you simply won't be able to control it effectively. Especially since its double blind as well.

I actually think it'd be best to not have any of the known traveller universe. This way, nobody will ever know things like "Well Regina is over here, and its a high-pop/high-tl system so I'm going to it even though I didn't discover it". So you see stars, thats it, nothing else, unless you have a presence in that system. If I can find any scout/diplomacy/spy type rules anywhere I'll implement them.

I would probably use a combination of all the traveller series for developing systems, starting with T5 (from kickstarter) and moving backwards as holes appear in data.

Still not totally sure I'll do it, just not sure its fun. People are really into eve though, and I thought it was pretty boring too. I actually might be able to implement this as a text based game (with optional GUI) so you could play it at work easier.

 

[McPerth]

Just some questions about your planning:

What time scale do you plan to use? 1 week per turn seems too few for any developement, if (as I understand it) you plan players to begin to develop empires.

Would it be necessary to know PE to play it?

 

[Bad_Syntax]

I'm sticking with the 5th Frontier Wars/Imperial Squadrons scale, so...

1 week per turn. This is a pretty standard turn length in Traveller games. Pocket empires uses 1 year for their turns, but most of the PE rules aren't important anyway, just some stuff for generating culture I believe. Imperial Squadron is the #1 rule set that would be used.

It'd be simple enough to not know traveller at all and play. You just tell fleets where to go, what to build, and what to conquer. It'd be simpler than master of orion or civilization.

 

[McPerth]

FFW treats about a conflict among established empires, and I guess Imperial Squadrons too, not about establishing them.

If I understood you well (the game would be about establishing empires, on strategic base), I'm afraid a week a turn will make it too slow and unbearable (too many turns just waiting for something ordered to be done).

IMHO, for such a game, if colonies are to be developed, starports and ships built, etc., you'd need some kind of more strategic turns, if you want to see some of those projects finished.