Transmutors?

[Baroun Tardis]

Ran across this in T5.10 BBB3p164:
Creators Ships which venture beyond the bounds of civilization carry creators to process locally obtained materials into appropriate power supplies
...
A Transmutor channels available energy from a Power Plant to fuse heavy metals into radioactives which can be used in fission devices. A Transmutor can, with proper raw materials, also create a broad range of elements.
-------------------------

Checked the Traveller wiki to see if there's an entry and drew a blank.

Does anyone have anything fleshed out on these already?

 

[Baroun Tardis]

Ok, got to fiddling with this...

If we're fiddling with it now as "Experimental" at TL9, that means it comes into play as a normal thing at TL12. (Right about the same time as nuclear dampers, so there's probably some isotope stabilization going on in there too)
I'm thinking that at TL12+ you can build a fusion reactor as a dedicated Transmutor using the normal fusion reactor build rules. It's just not going to power the ship... or if it's the only reactor aboard, (Type-S) then you're on reserve power while Transmuting

Research says 1 dton of LHyd is 945kg. I'm figuring with ineffeciencies, that's going to make 800kg of anything up to an inclding Iron. Then I figured it's a fast running fusion reactor, and you're gonna need to cool it, so vent half the fuel as cooling and you get 400kg of element per dton of fuel... up to Atomic Number 26
After that, a 5% fuel surcharge per atomic number for where you're trying to go.

 

[Enoki]

So, it's a variant of a breeder reactor, hum?

 

[Baroun Tardis]

So, it's a variant of a breeder reactor, hum?

That's how I'm reading the T5 book description, and the description of what they're actually doing right now.

I'm now running into the threefold problem I often run into when I find these little blurbs in T5 and try to add enough to make the thing usable in game :
1) Concern it's out-of-bounds overpowerful
2) Concern it's going to break the economy
3) I really, really, really want one installed at my house.

 

[Enoki]

That's how I'm reading the T5 book description, and the description of what they're actually doing right now.

I'm now running into the threefold problem I often run into when I find these little blurbs in T5 and try to add enough to make the thing usable in game :
1) Concern it's out-of-bounds overpowerful
2) Concern it's going to break the economy
3) I really, really, really want one installed at my house.

If you look at it realistically, you first need the (expensive) means to produce neutrons. Neutrons are the key to transmuting elements. Next, you need the element to be transformed in a form that can be transformed. Doing this with most stable elements is going to be hard. The closer to Iron 56 you get the harder it becomes.

The closer you get to the top of the binding curve of energy chart the harder it becomes to put elements together or tear them apart. Transforming elements into new ones is essentially the reverse of fusion or fission. In fusion you make heavier elements from lighter ones. In fission you make lighter elements from heavier ones. Transforming them works in reverse.

Some elements like Thorium are more amenable to being transmuted. Take Thorium add a neutron that becomes a proton, and voilà! You get Uranium that is fissionable.

Iron (Fe) 56 is the most stable element there is. You can't fusion anything heavier without adding lots of energy in to do it. Anything heavier than Fe 56 is theoretically fissionable--theoretically-- but the closer you get to Fe 56 the more impractical that becomes. Anything lighter you have to add energy to break it apart.

To do large quantities of material takes time to spray it with enough neutrons to get the results you want. Thus, in terms of the Traveller universe, it's probably simpler to just find a concentration of the element you want on some planet or asteroid--think a planet that just happens to have an over-abundance of gold or tungsten, or whatever you are looking for and mining it.

 

[Timerover51]

Something like a Transmuter definitely breaks the game, especially if available at Tech Level 12. Why bother with Asteroid mining when you have one of these, or several of these, on a planet?

 

[Baroun Tardis]

If you look at it realistically, you first need the (expensive) means to produce neutrons. Neutrons are the key to transmuting elements. Next, you need the element to be transformed in a form that can be transformed. Doing this with most stable elements is going to be hard. The closer to Iron 56 you get the harder it becomes.

The closer you get to the top of the binding curve of energy chart the harder it becomes to put elements together or tear them apart. Transforming elements into new ones is essentially the reverse of fusion or fission. In fusion you make heavier elements from lighter ones. In fission you make lighter elements from heavier ones. Transforming them works in reverse.

Some elements like Thorium are more amenable to being transmuted. Take Thorium add a neutron that becomes a proton, and voilà! You get Uranium that is fissionable.

Iron (Fe) 56 is the most stable element there is. You can't fusion anything heavier without adding lots of energy in to do it. Anything heavier than Fe 56 is theoretically fissionable--theoretically-- but the closer you get to Fe 56 the more impractical that becomes. Anything lighter you have to add energy to break it apart.

To do large quantities of material takes time to spray it with enough neutrons to get the results you want. Thus, in terms of the Traveller universe, it's probably simpler to just find a concentration of the element you want on some planet or asteroid--think a planet that just happens to have an over-abundance of gold or tungsten, or whatever you are looking for and mining it.

Yep, I agree it would probably be cheaper to mine it. Maybe. Should be.

Note the comments about using more fuel for heavier than iron elements. Totally agree about there being a threshold there.

At TL-12 fusion reactors are old hat, and nuclear dampers are usable at hundreds or thousands of meters away. I'd think that getting a neutron stream wouldn't be much of a problem. Even having intermediate elements that aren't stable isotopes wouldn't be an issue, since you can use a damper to prevent them from decaying.

I think.

I'm reading this as the only time that such things are really useful is the scenario is the one mentioned in the book: you're stuck in the middle of nowhere and don't have any titanium to patch a hole in the hull. Or whatever. It's a "how to make repairs when deep in the black and otherwise screwed"

 

[Baroun Tardis]

Something like a Transmuter definitely breaks the game, especially if available at Tech Level 12. Why bother with Asteroid mining when you have one of these, or several of these, on a planet?

You see my confusion on why it's in the book..... and seems like it's a fairly common thing
Looking at prior copies of T5 I have, it's in T5.00, not in T5.09, and back in in T5.10

But then, I figured that Makers are also a game breaker, but they're in AotI...

 

[kilemall]

I would look at this as necessary for super high tech material like bonded superdense.

 

[Timerover51]

You see my confusion on why it's in the book..... and seems like it's a fairly common thing
Looking at prior copies of T5 I have, it's in T5.00, not in T5.09, and back in in T5.10

But then, I figured that Makers are also a game breaker, but they're in AotI...

I suspect that Mark thought that it would be a good thing to add, without thinking about all of the implications of such a device. A lot of the inventions in the Tom Swift, Jr. series have the same problem, such as the "repelatron".

 

[Enoki]

I would look at this as necessary for super high tech material like bonded superdense.

All bonded super dense would likely amount to is you take some element, or alloy, then you cause it to bond in a way that makes the bonds between atoms stronger. A good example is carbon. Diamond is far harder than say, graphite because of the way the atoms are bonded.

Then what you do after getting the atoms arranged is you crush the whole thing down so the atoms are closer together increasing the density of the material beyond what's found in nature.

Today, this sort of thing is done on a limited basis with kinetic armor penetrating rounds the military uses. They use a material that is very finely powered to get a uniform molecular bond out of it and then use something like a HIP furnace to crush the molecules together getting a density greater than you can naturally.

I'd also think that such a material probably isn't a metal but rather a metal-ceramic or ceramic of some sort.

 

[kilemall]

You get superdense from gravitic presses, but a limit to what physical pressure can achieve. ND tech applied to manufacturing should allow much more precise manipulation.

I could see it being critical to battle dress manufacturing for instance, material that acts as armor but also flexible exomuscle.

 

[Baroun Tardis]

All bonded super dense would likely amount to is you take some element, or alloy, then you cause it to bond in a way that makes the bonds between atoms stronger. A good example is carbon. Diamond is far harder than say, graphite because of the way the atoms are bonded.

I'd like to take a moment to compliment you on your excellent illustrations in your posts.
Really great pictures to explain your points.

 

[Baroun Tardis]

I suspect that Mark thought that it would be a good thing to add, without thinking about all of the implications of such a device. A lot of the inventions in the Tom Swift, Jr. series have the same problem, such as the "repelatron".

Well, yes, the repelatron, but I'm surprised that given the topic of this thread you didn't mention the Space Solartron....

 

[Enoki]

You get superdense from gravitic presses, but a limit to what physical pressure can achieve. ND tech applied to manufacturing should allow much more precise manipulation.

I could see it being critical to battle dress manufacturing for instance, material that acts as armor but also flexible exomuscle.

You generally don't want one-directional pressure applied to the material so gravity or a plate-type press won't work. What you want is pressure evenly applied from every direction like atmospheric or hydraulic (water) pressure. You likely want really high temperatures too.
That's why I mentioned HIP furnaces. I've installed and set up two over the years. These typically go up to 100,000 psi and 1000 to 1600 C in temperature. You can make artificial diamond in one in about a day, give or take.

That's a larger one that works at 100 bar 1600 C.

The stuff I'd assume higher technologies could produce using something like this are akin to making stuff at the center of a gas giant like say, metallic hydrogen.

 

[Timerover51]

Well, yes, the repelatron, but I'm surprised that given the topic of this thread you didn't mention the Space Solartron....

I read the Repelatron Skyway, and even spent some of my limited funds at the time to buy the book. I did not read the one about the Space Solartron, I think.

Edit Note: I did read the book once, but I forgot what it did.

 

[Baroun Tardis]

I read the Repelatron Skyway, and even spent some of my limited funds at the time to buy the book. I did not read the one about the Space Solartron, I think.

I learned to read on the Tom Swift JR books... ended up collecting the whole set by the time I was in my 30s
13 months ago, we had a house fire, lost everything. Sigh.
Anyway...
The Solartron had huge solar panels, and did electron->proton and electron->neutron conversions.
Really. Really. Huge. Solar. Panels.
It could slowly build up any desired element by just letting it run long enough. It could even do mixes of elements and make things like water.

And, curses... Gutenberg used to have the Jr books as text, but apparently they've been taken down. grr.

 

[Timerover51]

I learned to read on the Tom Swift JR books... ended up collecting the whole set by the time I was in my 30s
13 months ago, we had a house fire, lost everything. Sigh.
Anyway...
The Solartron had huge solar panels, and did electron->proton and electron->neutron conversions.
Really. Really. Huge. Solar. Panels.
It could slowly build up any desired element by just letting it run long enough. It could even do mixes of elements and make things like water.

And, curses... Gutenberg used to have the Jr books as text, but apparently they've been taken down. grr.

There are a couple of them still up on Project Gutenberg, and you might want to look for used ones online. There is a used book store about 45 minutes from me that normally has a good selection of both the original books and the Tom Swift, Jr. series.

 

[kilemall]

You generally don't want one-directional pressure applied to the material so gravity or a plate-type press won't work. What you want is pressure evenly applied from every direction like atmospheric or hydraulic (water) pressure. You likely want really high temperatures too.
That's why I mentioned HIP furnaces. I've installed and set up two over the years. These typically go up to 100,000 psi and 1000 to 1600 C in temperature. You can make artificial diamond in one in about a day, give or take.

That's a larger one that works at 100 bar 1600 C.

The stuff I'd assume higher technologies could produce using something like this are akin to making stuff at the center of a gas giant like say, metallic hydrogen.

I’m assuming gravitic force in every direction. We have gravity neutralization, attraction and repulsion, and I’m also assuming it’s used in fusion.