PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
Never NEVER -NEVER- __NEVER___
do multi-player Chargen when you have only one book.
do multi-player Chargen when you have only one book.
Top Ten Things NOT to do with T20
- Thread starter PapaGolfWhiskey
- Start date
See, the thing with D20, and by extention T20, is it rewards the specialist and HUGLY penelises the guy who tries to do several things well.
Think about it this way:
A character starts in the Scouts, progresses to level 2, then multiclasses to Rogue for the next 4 levels.
The character is 6th level BUT, when compaired to a 4th level specialist Rogue, his roguish skills will be severly lagging.
Why?
It's because of the 4X skill points at first level. You don't get those 4X skill points for your first level in a new class. So, you will never be as good in your second class as a specialist character with the same number of levels in that class. Pluss, now that you aren't advancing in your original class, a 4th level Scout will be a MUCH better Scout (what ever THAT means) than out friend the 6th level Scout/Rogue.
It used to be multi-classed characters were really flexible and could adapt into dofferant situations well. Now, SPECIALISE. That, AND have a diverse party. That's even MORE important than it EVER was.
Think about it this way:
A character starts in the Scouts, progresses to level 2, then multiclasses to Rogue for the next 4 levels.
The character is 6th level BUT, when compaired to a 4th level specialist Rogue, his roguish skills will be severly lagging.
Why?
It's because of the 4X skill points at first level. You don't get those 4X skill points for your first level in a new class. So, you will never be as good in your second class as a specialist character with the same number of levels in that class. Pluss, now that you aren't advancing in your original class, a 4th level Scout will be a MUCH better Scout (what ever THAT means) than out friend the 6th level Scout/Rogue.
It used to be multi-classed characters were really flexible and could adapt into dofferant situations well. Now, SPECIALISE. That, AND have a diverse party. That's even MORE important than it EVER was.
Yeah, but consider the difference in skill points between some classes. Between Scout and Rogue is less of a reach, since the Rogue gets a lot of skills, and the combined Scout/Rogue class skill list is fairly wide ranging. Scout also gets JOT which is fantastic as it frees up skill points from some of the 'minor' skills and allows you to spend them in large amounts on fewer skills.
Does the JOT feat cross over to Rogue class skills? Or will it always just apply to the Scout class skills? That could make a HUGE difference.
Does the JOT feat cross over to Rogue class skills? Or will it always just apply to the Scout class skills? That could make a HUGE difference.
justacaveman
SOC-12
Specialists are supposed to be better in their specialty than a more generalzed character.
You can do a few things really good, or you can do a bunch of stuff fairly well.
Most of my characters have been quite specialized and focused in their pusuits. I've rarely had generic characters. I just prefer specialists.
You can do a few things really good, or you can do a bunch of stuff fairly well.
Most of my characters have been quite specialized and focused in their pusuits. I've rarely had generic characters. I just prefer specialists.
trader jim
SOC-14 1K
You NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, smack a wise A**
player with the BOOK!!! - you might damage the book!!!!.....
player with the BOOK!!! - you might damage the book!!!!.....
Tom Schoene
SOC-12
I don't really agree. Remember that multi-classing doesn't mean that your old class skills suddenly become cross-class or anything. So you can multi-class and still build up a couple of core skills to very high levels. But you have the chance to pick up skills or feats that you might not in a single class.
Indeed, multi-classing is almost munchkiny if you pick the right classes and the right time to switch, because you get extra free class feats and extra bonus feats.
For example, I have a character that multi-classed from Navy to Travelller, but still has pilot +12 at 9th level and a couple of other pilot-related skills at +10. But he has language skills he could not have developed if he's stayed Navy. And he has two or three more feats than he would have had if he'd stayed Navy, including the ever-popular Jack-of-all-Trades.
But IMO the most important part of multi-classing is that if gives you more hooks to build a character on. For instance, that character had three terms in the Navy, which gave him seven levels of Navy. But multi-classing to Traveller bart way through his Navy career gave him the skills to back up a transfer into Naval Intelligence. When he mustered out of the Navy and took a full term as a Traveller, he'd moved over to be a troubleshooter for a Noble, probably building on his Naval Intell connections.
In a campaign, he'd probably still be working for that Noble, and they have several years of backstory to explain why the party gets entrusted with certain missions (for example). It makes the character feel more interesting (to me, anyway) if they don't come into play straight out of whatever career they started in.
Sorry for the ramble, but I've really been enjoying the character-building aspects of the T20 system. And I think multiclassing is a useful part of it.
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
allow me to clarify.
never have more the one player trying to roll up a character at once. When you only have one book.
never have more the one player trying to roll up a character at once. When you only have one book.
Ahh! well, yes. That goes without saying..
Tom,
Keep in mind, I'm a GURPS:Traveller dude (check my sig, I think I'm the only one in the known UNIVERSE).
Because GURPS uses "point buy" character generation, any character can have any skill to nearly any degree. (As a GM, I make the players write a backstory to JUSTIFY any wierd skill mix, but that's ANOTHER thread).
Also, because G:T uses a 3D6 bell curve game engine, it is very EASY to create "generalist" characters that are good at LOTS AND LOTS of things. In fact, for the points you have to spend to becaome "exceptional" at a few things, GURPS characters that take that route end up being clueless at other tasks.
In Traveller terms, my Scout can EASILY have EVERY ship-board skill, in the bridge, in the engineroom, both use and repair skills, all to profesional levels PLUS be good in a fist fight, knife fight and gunfight.
No, he won't be as good at whatever as the specialist mechanic or the ace pilot, but not THAT much better (skill 12 vs skill 14) and the specialists are lost outside their little worlds.
On a side note, when I used to play rather than GM, the other players would sometimes get pissed because my characters were nearly as good as theirs in their chosen specialty, plus could do so many other things. "You're stepping on my stchik," they'd say.
Now when approach T20, I'd be very hard pressed to create that same Scout with such a broad-based skill set. In fact, because of the random nature of Prior History, I flat wouldn't try. I'd pick a stchik, say "pilot/navigator", and trust that another PC would pick "master mechanic" and I know at least TWO PCs would pick "combat monster" so I'd be safe if all I could do is shot a pistol.
Nature of the game system, that's all.
notagoodusername
SOC-13
You think?Originally posted by trader jim:
You NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, smack a wise A**
player with the BOOK!!! - you might damage the book!!!!.....
It's a hefty enough tome that I keep it under the bed so if anyone breaks into my flat I can beat them to death with it!
Shane
trader jim
SOC-14 1K
Shane - you are Hard Core Man, Hard Core!!! I Like That!!!!......
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
You think?Originally posted by Shane Mclean:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by trader jim:
You NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, smack a wise A**
player with the BOOK!!! - you might damage the book!!!!.....
It's a hefty enough tome that I keep it under the bed so if anyone breaks into my flat I can beat them to death with it!
Shane</font>[/QUOTE]________________________
And TJ, I have two copies, to properly box the ears with! Florentine style!
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
I don't really agree. Remember that multi-classing doesn't mean that your old class skills suddenly become cross-class or anything. So you can multi-class and still build up a couple of core skills to very high levels. But you have the chance to pick up skills or feats that you might not in a single class.
Indeed, multi-classing is almost munchkiny if you pick the right classes and the right time to switch, because you get extra free class feats and extra bonus feats.
For example, I have a character that multi-classed from Navy to Travelller, but still has pilot +12 at 9th level and a couple of other pilot-related skills at +10. But he has language skills he could not have developed if he's stayed Navy. And he has two or three more feats than he would have had if he'd stayed Navy, including the ever-popular Jack-of-all-Trades.
But IMO the most important part of multi-classing is that if gives you more hooks to build a character on. For instance, that character had three terms in the Navy, which gave him seven levels of Navy. But multi-classing to Traveller bart way through his Navy career gave him the skills to back up a transfer into Naval Intelligence. When he mustered out of the Navy and took a full term as a Traveller, he'd moved over to be a troubleshooter for a Noble, probably building on his Naval Intell connections.
In a campaign, he'd probably still be working for that Noble, and they have several years of backstory to explain why the party gets entrusted with certain missions (for example). It makes the character feel more interesting (to me, anyway) if they don't come into play straight out of whatever career they started in.
Sorry for the ramble, but I've really been enjoying the character-building aspects of the T20 system. And I think multiclassing is a useful part of it.</font>[/QUOTE]_________________________________________
My oldest PC has that problem (his 4th incarnation now, from CT to MT- toTNE, and now to T20.)...cashiered out for shooting an officer (a RADM for treason FFW, 1st term Scout). Picked up by IBIS from the stockade (faked firing squad ala Le Femme Nikita before there was a show!), (in MT called IRIS--yes GAB, that semi-canon heresy
Survived collapse in lowberth, awakened in 1190, spent 3 terms with free trdaers before landing in the RC to give Ilelik Kuligaan's "Hooligans" heartburn. (thanks to 24 yrs of anagathics, +60 yrs in LB) is 38bio/54chrono./actual chrono 114.
Trouble is trying to find a T20 class that fits this career (Undercover agent in TNE PHB was my last reference.)
Spent 2 terms of six in this career serving aboard ISS vessels in Dingir subsector/ Sol subsector before transferral to Warinir Daibei.(Undercover in Academia at Sector university)...
He's a complex fellow to chart out. Any suggestions?
notagoodusername
SOC-13
Scout term should give him a few levels of Scout, for those ship skils and scout skills he has, along with a level or two of JoT (essential for undercover types, IMHO).
A few Merchant levels should be enough to pick up a smattering of ranks in trading skills and a few useful feats, but it seems to me like it isn't his primary focus, so only one or two....
Finally make up the rest in Traveller and Rogue. They give a good mix of useful skills and Feats that round out those characters that can't be easily fit into a given bracket.
So, I count 10 terms (1 Scout, 3 Free-Trading, 6 RC). Low-average XP values from those terms (on pure estimation) are:
1 Scout = 5000 (basic training)
3 Merchant = 18000
4 Traveller = 20000
2 Scout or Navy (ISS) = 13000
Total = 66000 = Level 13
Scout 4 / Merchant 2 / Rogue 2 / Traveller 5
That's the sort of level-distribution impression I get from the description. Possible Feat choices include JoT, Martial Training, Connections, Stealthy, Fast Talk.
Obviously your view of your PC is likely to be more accurate than mine....
Take care,
Shane
notagoodusername
SOC-13
*bows* I try.... It's probably all that sub-standard coffee juice that some disreputable-types have been peddling 'round here. I shoulda stuck with the genuine TJ-label...Originally posted by trader jim:
Shane - you are Hard Core Man, Hard Core!!! I Like That!!!!......
Shane
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
shane posted"Scout term should give him a few levels of Scout, for those ship skils and scout skills he has, along with a level or two of JoT (essential for undercover types, IMHO).
A few Merchant levels should be enough to pick up a smattering of ranks in trading skills and a few useful feats, but it seems to me like it isn't his primary focus, so only one or two....
Finally make up the rest in Traveller and Rogue. They give a good mix of useful skills and Feats that round out those characters that can't be easily fit into a given bracket.
So, I count 10 terms (1 Scout, 3 Free-Trading, 6 RC). Low-average XP values from those terms (on pure estimation) are:
1 Scout = 5000 (basic training)
3 Merchant = 18000
4 Traveller = 20000
2 Scout or Navy (ISS) = 13000
Total = 66000 = Level 13
Scout 4 / Merchant 2 / Rogue 2 / Traveller 5
That's the sort of level-distribution impression I get from the description. Possible Feat choices include JoT, Martial Training, Connections, Stealthy, Fast Talk.
Obviously your view of your PC is likely to be more accurate than mine...."
_________________________________________________
Thank you Shane! I was wondering about how to do that one. Conversion time is here....Lots to do PC wise.
Connections will only matter somewhat from 1190-onwards (whosoever liveth still). For a better picture at his last incarnation/career list TNE-check out Martin Francis Rourke under Adventurers, here on this list.
And yes, stealthy, Martial arts oriented, troubleshooting is part of his portfolio. Geting the skills/ feats separated will be a smal chore.
thanx again!
A few Merchant levels should be enough to pick up a smattering of ranks in trading skills and a few useful feats, but it seems to me like it isn't his primary focus, so only one or two....
Finally make up the rest in Traveller and Rogue. They give a good mix of useful skills and Feats that round out those characters that can't be easily fit into a given bracket.
So, I count 10 terms (1 Scout, 3 Free-Trading, 6 RC). Low-average XP values from those terms (on pure estimation) are:
1 Scout = 5000 (basic training)
3 Merchant = 18000
4 Traveller = 20000
2 Scout or Navy (ISS) = 13000
Total = 66000 = Level 13
Scout 4 / Merchant 2 / Rogue 2 / Traveller 5
That's the sort of level-distribution impression I get from the description. Possible Feat choices include JoT, Martial Training, Connections, Stealthy, Fast Talk.
Obviously your view of your PC is likely to be more accurate than mine...."
_________________________________________________
Thank you Shane! I was wondering about how to do that one. Conversion time is here....Lots to do PC wise.
Connections will only matter somewhat from 1190-onwards (whosoever liveth still). For a better picture at his last incarnation/career list TNE-check out Martin Francis Rourke under Adventurers, here on this list.
And yes, stealthy, Martial arts oriented, troubleshooting is part of his portfolio. Geting the skills/ feats separated will be a smal chore.
thanx again!
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Was that peddling or piddling?
perhaps we should ask TJ that one, eh?
Tom Schoene
SOC-12
Phydaux:
I'm a long-time GURPSer myself (as in, since about 1987).
I agree that it's easier to be competant in multiple tihngs in GURPS, but I have found that tacking on significnat difficulty penalties can make specialists shine over generalists.
The same is true in T20, really. Multi-classing doesn't prevent you from having a specialty area. It just lets you diversify yourt secondary skills.
It's possible with multi-classing to have +5 skill mods in a couple dozen skills or have +12 in a couple and +4 is a dozen more. This seems to be about the same as having a couple of 18s and a bunch of 12s in GURPS. In casual useage, a +5 should get you through most tasks (especially with Take 10) but a +10 or better will be necessary for really hard tasks.
It's all in how the Ref works out task difficulty, really.
I'm a long-time GURPSer myself (as in, since about 1987).
I agree that it's easier to be competant in multiple tihngs in GURPS, but I have found that tacking on significnat difficulty penalties can make specialists shine over generalists.
The same is true in T20, really. Multi-classing doesn't prevent you from having a specialty area. It just lets you diversify yourt secondary skills.
It's possible with multi-classing to have +5 skill mods in a couple dozen skills or have +12 in a couple and +4 is a dozen more. This seems to be about the same as having a couple of 18s and a bunch of 12s in GURPS. In casual useage, a +5 should get you through most tasks (especially with Take 10) but a +10 or better will be necessary for really hard tasks.
It's all in how the Ref works out task difficulty, really.
