TNE...why?

[Supplement Four]

Some of you TNE lovers out there might get a kick out of THIS.

It was written just before the release of TNE.

Here's an excerpt:

TRAVELLER: THE NEW ERA -- WHY?
GDW admits they did not support MEGATRAVELLER (MT) adequately.
An underlying reason was simply that they did not play MT, and so did
not know the system very well. As a result, temptation was too great
to redirect support elsewhere. GDW wasn't offering this reason as an
excuse, only as an explanation.
To avoid this problem, they want to write TRAVELLER: THE NEW ERA
(TNE) strictly in-house. Further, it will be based on the
TWILIGHT:2000 family of games, which is good for a few reasons.
First off, TNE will belong to the GDW house role playing system.
Because of this, the designers don't have to think in terms of a
different rules set when they provide TRAVELLER support, giving them a
boost in productivity.
Second, its very easy for gaming groups to hop among GDW RP games
and even borrow elements from one another.
Third, the house role playing system is a direct descendant of
classic TRAVELLER. TRAVELLER was their first RP game, but never
received the benefits of GDW's advances in RP game system design. Now
they finally have a chance to do so. TRAVELLER is coming home.

 

[Plankowner]

I liked the part about including Stutterwarp and Reconning it into the OTU by stating, "well it was always there, we just didn't mention it."

I could see Stutterwarp being replaced by Jump Drives once J-3 is achieved. But, WHY would anyone give up the In-System speed of the Stutterwarp. I guess if you only went from orbit to 100 diameters (~1.2 Million km for Earth), then it might not have been worth it, but Sheese! What a hard sell that might have been.

Don't get me wrong I LOVED Traveller:2300, but I never really wanted to mesh the FTL system with Traveller.

Now the Star Gate idea seems intriguing...

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Plankowner:
But, WHY would anyone give up the In-System speed of the Stutterwarp.

I played a neat space sim once like this. It was called Independence War 2: Edge of Chaos. It used vector movement for ships and the solar systems were realisticly sized.

The ship used it's normal drive. Then, there was a stutterwarp-like drive for inter-system used. Then, stargates had to be used to jump between systems.

It was a pretty cool game.

 

[aramis]

I can think of a few scenarios which would cause it...

A) Jump-space hates the SW Hardware... automatic misjump.
Makes monitors nigh invicible, but also means only systems which can build SW drives able to have them...

B1) Jump Transitions Detonate nearby active Stutterwarps.
This option has serious potential. If an operating stutterwarp detonates when within, say, 1 LS of a jump entry/exit, then a few scoutships can clear all the operating ones, and the natural distibution of fleet jumps means that engaging under SW becomes a potential suicide situation.

B2) Jump Transitions detonate nearby active and inactive drives.
As B, but you can't even mount them! A jump in or out will kill a stutterwarp fleet engaged. Only takes once to put serious fear into the fleet.

 

[TheDS]

What would've been good about what the OP is about is that equipment designed for TW2000 or 2300 would have mostly been directly usable to TNE, just call it a lower TL. More the 2000 stuff than the 2300 stuff, of course. And I suppose the DC stuff too.

 

[Roman]

The robots of Dark Conspiracy had their uses as twisted Virus-agents... But most of the unusual technology of DC was biotech, a field I always tried to leave out of Traveller.

 

[Vargas]

TNE was done for a couple of reasons, both in and out of game.

It allowed GDW to convert Traveller to its house rule system exemplified by Twilight 2000, Version N.

It brought Traveller back in-house. MT was pretty much 'subcontracted' out to DGP and to Chuck Gannon.

It attempted to redress the fact that DGP had written itself into a corner it could never support; that being how to adequately support the Rebellion in terms of products and how to continue with the metastory without killing off customer beloved factions.

DGP's finances were already precarious.

It attempted to redress the old customer complaint that there were no frontiers to explore. Along the same lines, there were those who wanted starship technology to be more like CT and less like what DGP published.

Some within GDW saw the Rebellion setting as filled with, with one exception, morally bankrupt factions and that for any of them to succeed would validate their actions.

With the exception of the first point above, which I believe is common knowledge, the rest of the points are mine. Some are based on 10 year old memories of discussions and speculations with others so any errors are mine.

 

[Dreadnought]

Some of you TNE lovers out there might get a kick out of THIS.

It was written just before the release of TNE.

Here's an excerpt:

TRAVELLER: THE NEW ERA -- WHY?
GDW admits they did not support MEGATRAVELLER (MT) adequately.
An underlying reason was simply that they did not play MT, and so did
not know the system very well. As a result, temptation was too great
to redirect support elsewhere. GDW wasn't offering this reason as an
excuse, only as an explanation.
To avoid this problem, they want to write TRAVELLER: THE NEW ERA
(TNE) strictly in-house. Further, it will be based on the
TWILIGHT:2000 family of games, which is good for a few reasons.
First off, TNE will belong to the GDW house role playing system.
Because of this, the designers don't have to think in terms of a
different rules set when they provide TRAVELLER support, giving them a
boost in productivity.
Second, its very easy for gaming groups to hop among GDW RP games
and even borrow elements from one another.
Third, the house role playing system is a direct descendant of
classic TRAVELLER. TRAVELLER was their first RP game, but never
received the benefits of GDW's advances in RP game system design. Now
they finally have a chance to do so. TRAVELLER is coming home.

Where'd you find that? That looks like something we wrote, and was absolutely true. However, it's written in the third person, so does not seem to be presented the we would have written it. I'm pretty sure I wrote, "Traveller is coming home." Most of the rest of it is Frank/Les/conventional GDW wisdom.

Dave

 

[Uxi]

It's in the notes from Galactic 2.4 by Jim Vassilakos. Which has a header from HIWG, "TIFFANY STAR #31" dated August 30, 1992.

Before that, it says:

" GenCon/Origins '92 is over, and there's a lot of news. The GDW
staff conducted 2 seminars for the public, then a full day's Traveller
Writers' Conference at Bloomington, Illinois the day after the con.
The seminars were well attended with a significant proportion of
the audience from outside the States. I wish I was able to meet some
of these new faces, but couldn't do everything. However, I did finally
meet in the flesh Roger Myhre (Norway, HIWG) and Bertil Jonell
(Sweden).
The Writers' Conference was conducted by David Nilsen, Steve
Maggi, Loren Wiseman, and Frank Chadwick. The outside writers around
the table were Bertil Jonell, Mike Mikesh (HIWG), Greg Videll (HIWG),
Harold Hale, Rob Prior (HIWG), Terry McInnes (HIWG), Scott Olson
(HIWG), and Clay Bush (HIWG). What follows is a fusion of information
collected from both the Conference and seminars. (Many thanks to
Terry McInnes for having arranged the conference.)"


I could send you the whole thing if you'd like.

 

[Dreadnought]

It's in the notes from Galactic 2.4 by Jim Vassilakos. Which has a header from HIWG, "TIFFANY STAR #31" dated August 30, 1992.
(snip)
I could send you the whole thing if you'd like.

No, thanks, that's enough for me to connect the dots. I think the bulk of what was originally posted was adapted from some kind of communique we released, but parts of it turned into third person because they heard it from us live at the conference.

Those were all standard GDW talking points of that period, and true for all that, but they just seemed too similar to some one-pager I have a vague recollection of, the "not excuses, just explantions" part aside. More accurately, it was because MT was written out-of-house by DGP and they did all the rules questions during that period, but when they walked away from Traveller they stopped handling the errata and handed it back to us, and we didn't have the expertise to answer all the questions about things like Fighting Ships.

The quote reminded me a little bit of the times the phone would ring and I'd hear, "This is So-and-so, we met at GenCon last year, and I was wondering about..." and the next thing I knew it had shown up as "Exclusive Interview with Dave Nilsen" in some 'zine or newsletter.

 

[Dreadnought]

"GenCon/Origins '92 is over, and there's a lot of news. The GDW
staff conducted 2 seminars for the public, then a full day's Traveller
Writers' Conference at Bloomington, Illinois the day after the con.

Speaking of the writer's conference, that reminds me. At that writer's conference, I think it was Harold Hale or Mike Mikesh who asked, about Virus propagation, could Virus get you just by your looking at something with your sensors, and used a Cthulhu metaphor about, "seeing what should not be seen," or something. My response was certainly not, sensors render representations of the signal being received, and not direct entry of that signal into your software.

A couple years ago when Aviation Week started reporting how the new AESAs can inject code into air defense networks and take them over, I realized that I owed Harold or Mike an apology.

So, "Sorry, Mike/Harold, I was wrong."

However, the point stood that that's not the way Virus propagated in TNE. Since we're doing this in 2012, the architecture that allows EM signal to go straight through the antenna into to operating software would have been fixed to create a gap, and the intent of Virus is that it must be through systems intended to allow direct data to data transfer. Another spin on this is the way the BSG reboot did this through the nav system. Nav, IFF, tomayto, tomahto. (Let's call the whole thing off.)

Dave

 

[Uxi]

I seem to remember that coming up before, probably on TNE-RCES and the idea being left in the air. I would tend to think it would take a very patient Virus. Perhaps feasible for Imperial designs, but certainly secured against in the New Era.

The BSG thing always bugged me more than a little because if their fleets were compromised by the CNP, and they Cylons completely and utterly overwhelmed any AV/countermeasures/basic computer security the Colonies should have had in place (and given the nature of the reimagined Cylons, SHOULD have meritted very serious R&D and compartmentalization), where were the ground based defenses?

Course I still despise the organic Cylon concept in general as a budget measure rather than what could have been a new take on the IL-series and the Imperious Leader and perhaps some analogy of your meta-identity concept, instead of Cavil and his petty Oedipus complex.

 

[rancke]

However, the point stood that that's not the way Virus propagated in TNE. Since we're doing this in 2012, the architecture that allows EM signal to go straight through the antenna into to operating software would have been fixed to create a gap, and the intent of Virus is that it must be through systems intended to allow direct data to data transfer. Another spin on this is the way the BSG reboot did this through the nav system. Nav, IFF, tomayto, tomahto. (Let's call the whole thing off.)

I never had any trouble accepting the way Virus was able to propagate. I just decided that Virus was a disembodied psionic entity whose natural habitat was Deyo chips but was able to survive in other forms of advanced computers.

What I found hard to reconcile was the fact that the unforgeable transponder was supposed to have been installed in all Imperial ships by 1100 with the appearances of false transponders in various CT material. I also found it completely unbelievable that the Imperium's bigger neighbors would have allowed it to install black boxes in any of their ships; IMO any such attempt would have been met with a prohibition against any ship equipped with such an Imperial transponder entering the neighbors' territories...

The fix I came up with can be seen here. Short version, the Deyo transponder wasn't really unforgable, that was merely Imperial hype, but it was a lot better than other transponders, so the neighbors stole the technology and came up with their own versions.


Hans

 

[Dreadnought]

The BSG thing always bugged me more than a little because if their fleets were compromised by the CNP, and they Cylons completely and utterly overwhelmed any AV/countermeasures/basic computer security the Colonies should have had in place (and given the nature of the reimagined Cylons, SHOULD have meritted very serious R&D and compartmentalization), where were the ground based defenses?

I didn't mind that. It was a device to show us that the Cylons were a different form of life (until later when they weren't) and that EW was important.

The thing that wore me out about BSG (2) was the way every episode all of the characters would change sides, pick new teams, and hold pistols to each other's foreheads some more.

Course I still despise the organic Cylon concept in general as a budget measure rather than what could have been a new take on the IL-series and the Imperious Leader and perhaps some analogy of your meta-identity concept, instead of Cavil and his petty Oedipus complex.

Their take on meta-identity was kind of disappointing. It seems like their thesis was basically, "everyone is human, and all humans suck," which actually takes far less time to posit (and they give you that for free in each episode's end-of-credits stinger). The thing about BSG (2)'s Cylon resurrection is that that when they get killed and reappear in the bathtub there would be tremendous signal required to carry that data, tremendous energy required to generate that signal to be received intact at the interstellar distances they were talking about, and you should be able to detect or jam it, and it arrived instantaneously. Obviously it had to happen another way, like TNE psionics/jumpspace, but they didn't address that.

Last observation was they introduced this very heavy spirituality subplot on both sides, which I have no problem with, except that they didn't really take it very seriously. At the end of the day, the main thing is that somewhere someone has to listen to Baltar and twitchy-lips for eternity.

But the point is BSG (2) did a great number of things very well, which is the reason one takes it seriously enough to be disappointed by other things.

Dave

 

[Dreadnought]

I never had any trouble accepting the way Virus was able to propagate. I just decided that Virus was a disembodied psionic entity whose natural habitat was Deyo chips but was able to survive in other forms of advanced computers.

I like that idea, but that's not the way we went. The bottom line was that we needed a plot device to ring down the curtain on the Rebellion. We talked around a whole bunch of options. Frank had already floated the idea of a virus and Star Vikings which was not terribly well-received, although you can see the beginnings of a Star Vikings variation in Hard Times.

After all of the options, virus had a couple things going for it: 1) it had the whole "Once an Eagle...by our own hands" element, and 2) it allowed us to get at AI, a long-standing unexploded grenade in Traveller. The CoA was to use an existing Traveller element, the Cymbeline chips, to anchor it is something already there. Was there a better way to do it? Given enough time and energy, surely. Enough time and energy is always the issue.

What I found hard to reconcile was the fact that the unforgeable transponder was supposed to have been installed in all Imperial ships by 1100 with the appearances of false transponders in various CT material. I also found it completely unbelievable that the Imperium's bigger neighbors would have allowed it to install black boxes in any of their ships; IMO any such attempt would have been met with a prohibition against any ship equipped with such an Imperial transponder entering the neighbors' territories...

The fix I came up with can be seen here. Short version, the Deyo transponder wasn't really unforgable, that was merely Imperial hype, but it was a lot better than other transponders, so the neighbors stole the technology and came up with their own versions.

I like that as well, and is a good way to handle the issue, and if it were 1992 again, could have been a good way to go. Still wouldn't answer all of the objections. Some things in life are just a lump in your carpet. You move it around to remain under the couch when you re-arrange your furniture, but it's still there.

Dave

 

[Dragoner]

After all of the options, virus had a couple things going for it: 1) it had the whole "Once an Eagle...by our own hands" element, and 2) it allowed us to get at AI, a long-standing unexploded grenade in Traveller. The CoA was to use an existing Traveller element, the Cymbeline chips, to anchor it is something already there.

The AI side is where I work it in, I like that. IMTU there are two things, virus was ultimately defeated by alliance with virus (pretty much OTU w/ sandman) but it also fostered the next level of electronics: CEDE (Cymbeline Entity Developmental Electronics) technology, working through true quantum computing matrices. Though, I can't say too much as my players could read this, but what happens when you mix a Zhodani Teleporting Guard Commando and Virus? People just won't learn ...

 

[Uxi]

There are indeed some elements of the new BSG that I really like. There are some I really dislike and so many more "could have beens" that would have made it my favorite show evAr but they failed to live up to.

I was very sour on it initially because I felt a sequel series could have explored just about every plot point and concept without completely disrespecting the original. I also liked the ancient astronaut angle they were going for with the Egyption helmets (and a bit more mundanely felt there wasn't enough differentiation between the different squadrons, especially those from Pegasus). I love the deck hands and operational "realism" but think most of the tech seemed a bit too... contemporary. What I would most like about Ronald Moore's Galactica universe would be a day in the life of "ordinary" fleet operations and/or exploration.

You're very right about the signal issue too. With info from the mini-series alone that they should just be looking for an angle to detect, if not jam the "ressurection" transmission "bursts." So much better would it have been to be using "regular" transmissions (though undeniably advanced compression and encyrption) and had them "hopping" if not acting as Puppeteers.

My biggest single issue was the whole lack of perspective the survivors had in dealing with the biological Cylons and their extermination of BILLIONS of humans in the nuclear annihilation of the Colonies and vacuous moralization "they're just like us anyway." Simply because Helo makes a pseudobiological's spine glow red when doing the dirty and she says she's bearing his child, that makes it ok they annihilated his species and civilization?

Then despite still being pursued and under severe threat, they get a chance to use the virus on them, they still disregard that amidst their petty angst and the odious equivocation of "enhanced interrogation" with the rape and 'real' torture being visited on the Pegasus Six.

Some really good sci fi amidst the soap opera drama. Sadly SyFy seems more interested in wrestling and ghosts and B-movies than good science fiction like this.

 

[Dragoner]

Some really good sci fi amidst the soap opera drama. Sadly SyFy seems more interested in wrestling and ghosts and B-movies than good science fiction like this.

Blood and Chrome is coming out, it's pretty good. Defiance looks different, we'll see how it is.

 

[Uxi]

I never had any trouble accepting the way Virus was able to propagate. I just decided that Virus was a disembodied psionic entity whose natural habitat was Deyo chips but was able to survive in other forms of advanced computers.

What I found hard to reconcile was the fact that the unforgeable transponder was supposed to have been installed in all Imperial ships by 1100 with the appearances of false transponders in various CT material. I also found it completely unbelievable that the Imperium's bigger neighbors would have allowed it to install black boxes in any of their ships; IMO any such attempt would have been met with a prohibition against any ship equipped with such an Imperial transponder entering the neighbors' territories...

Psionics was never necessary but it is an interesting interpretation. Tamper-proof and unforgeable should always be taken with the same grain of hyperbolic propaganda salt as any entity that would claim unsinkability, immovability, or omnipotence. EXTREMELY difficult and enormously expensive to replicate the EXACT mutation after penetrating the security of Deyo project? Well 'nuff said.

Yeah no way would the other governments ever adopt it and beyond ships interfacing the borders commercially. That vector is enough to leave the canon universe it is (as Virus would inculcate in the alien tech). No way would foreign governments incorporate Imperial tech in their diplomatic or military ships.

The fix I came up with can be seen here. Short version, the Deyo transponder wasn't really unforgable, that was merely Imperial hype, but it was a lot better than other transponders, so the neighbors stole the technology and came up with their own versions.

So effectively no change other than the background justification. Shore thing!

 

[Uxi]

Blood and Chrome is coming out, it's pretty good. Defiance looks different, we'll see how it is.

It's already out and viewable on Youtube for awhile, but the series is past the point of no return and effectively as dead as fried chicken. They had to include the ... love story I'd guess you'd call it but I loved the whole disinformation angle and lie within a lie they had going on. I'll definitely be buying the blu-ray.