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TNE Interpretation Question

Gadrin

SOC-14 1K
Just looking for insight from TNE vets, I was reading Path of Tears and noticed the following passage on p145:

The Guild has a near-monopoly on the knowledge necessary to build and repair starships and an effective total monopoly on astrographic information necessary to plot deep-space jumps.

"Deep space jumps" ? meaning empty hex jumps to cover open space ? (I assume so since I've never seen the term defined anywhere).

So the Reformation Coalition, Hivers et al don't know how to make Deep Space Jumps ? (or just a few individuals do).

>
 
I'd read this as "The stellar charts necessary to plot your jumps in a way that allows your <Curses> Heplar drives to reach the gas giant before all aboard die of old age" TNE has fuel-guzzlers as the main thrusters and jumping in at the right place was crucial
 
Just looking for insight from TNE vets, I was reading Path of Tears and noticed the following passage on p145:

The Guild has a near-monopoly on the knowledge necessary to build and repair starships and an effective total monopoly on astrographic information necessary to plot deep-space jumps.

"Deep space jumps" ? meaning empty hex jumps to cover open space ? (I assume so since I've never seen the term defined anywhere).

So the Reformation Coalition, Hivers et al don't know how to make Deep Space Jumps ? (or just a few individuals do).

>

It's hyperbole, I've always assumed.

Excluding the Hivers, the RC, the player characters, Vampire Ships with operating Jump Drives, various Pocket Empires with operating starship fleets, and the Free Trader Network, the Guild are the only ones able to navigate jumps between star systems in the "RC Campaign" area - which is "known space" - remember, nobody in the RC or the Guild knows about the Regency.

TNE makes a big point that a lot of TEDs and similar groups have starships operating Jump Drives, however, the skill of astrogation is lacking, so these TEDs can't go from star system to star system - they're locked in a single solar system. There's a few examples of these in the Path of Tears supplement itself, and more elsewhere. Since the Hivers and Vampires aren't really in the human sphere, they don't count. This leaves the RC, the Pocket Empires lucky enough to have astrogation, and the Free Trader Network are the Guild's only competition. Of those entities, only the RC has a operating shipyard able to trump the Guild's Class B starport. Everyone else, the Guild can deal with from a position of strength - taking away the few operating ships of a TED or Pocket Empire is easy if they can't build more, leaving the Guild once more in control.

The Covenant of Suffren sort of throws a wrench into this entire operation, as they're also a power with a B-class starport (or maybe A? I don't remember anymore), as they'd also be able to deal with the Guild on an equal or even a superior position, but the Covenant didn't exist in print at the time that PoT was written. This line is further compromised if you follow the 1248 timeline with the factional cores from the Rebellion-era still extant.
 
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Whoa! Nice post Epicenter00...

and [FONT=arial,helvetica]hyperbole is the word I was looking for (a different post).[/FONT]

I got the sense of a very fractured imperium/region but I only have two
books in the series: Star Viking and Path o'Tears.

It mentions TEDs every other page, but I hadn't bothered too much with
those, since I felt I understood that. I know nothing about the Regency.

But I don't think the writeup on the Guild mentions it's area of influence or
area of operations... Which I suppose is limited to that one book.

Well, I think I'll save your post, it's concise and captures exactly what I was looking for.

>
 
Epicenter00

So you don't think the term "deep space jumps" mentioned in the original post signifies using a jump to an empty hex as an intermediate point for a 2nd jump ? (assuming the ship has sufficient fuel).

>
 
Deadspace exists a concept in TNE where Jump Drives mysteriously do not work and ships are held in a temporal suspension. Maybe the 3I figured a way around that in the waning years of its existance. Perhaps, the Guild has managed to tap into that Deadspace as a spatial shortcut.
 
Epicenter00

So you don't think the term "deep space jumps" mentioned in the original post signifies using a jump to an empty hex as an intermediate point for a 2nd jump ? (assuming the ship has sufficient fuel).

>

Not exactly. When the writers said "deep space jumps" in my opinion they just meant the ability to jump hexes on the subsector grid. TEDs and various other "systemlocked" groups might have figured out how to jump from planetary orbit to the local gas giant or whatever. They simply don't have the astrogation knowledge to even do a one-hex jump.

TEDs/Pocket Empires like Solee are an exception to this, which is what makes them so dangerous - if you screw up with them, you can't just jump away and be "safe" - they might come looking for you.

On the other hand, I believe that knowledge of astrogation would allow you to plot courses to do a two hex trip with a Jump-1 ship - laying supplies down for two weeks, fuel for two jumps, and so on. My game experience is that given the realistic paucity of anything over Jump-2 in the game, people do this a lot in TNE (this doesn't include player characters and their Jump-4 and higher ships). I've managed to keep my players in a Jump-1 ship, and they recently repaired and got a Jump-2 drive working ... which of course means they're now plotting 3 and 4 hex trips.

However, kafka's idea of deadspace sounds pretty interesting too...
 
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IIRC PoT mentioned a dictator trying to get additional starcharts. The one that had troops on a nearby world interfering in the civil war there
 
In PoT there's about 20 worlds detailed, of them I think about four of them have spaceships. Two are actually using captured Dawn League ships they've renamed. At least one of them is friendly to the Guild already. The level to which these worlds can repair their ships is limited - none of them could do major overhauls or build new ones. For the Guild to seize or destroy the vessels wouldn't have been that difficult.

The early RCES campaign was essentially presented as a RC vs. the Wilds campaign with the gradually dawning realization that behind stiffening resistance in the Wilds to the RC is the hand of the Guild. Through slogging through various TEDs, players would come to realize the looming threat of the Guild - if you look at the entry for the Crunch Gun, it neatly illustrates the RCs lack of knowledge about the scope of the Guild threat. Things like Vampires and the Hivers were meant to be sort of grayed out and in the background.

With such a background, I think the comment in PoT really did work out - the Guild really did have a near-monopoly on technical knowledge of plotting Jumps. Against scattered, divided, and leaderless TEDs in the Wilds, the Guild could afford to alternate between diplomacy, manipulation, and occasionally attack to have their way - if they didn't have a monopoly they could make on.. Only the RC and their Hiver backers really present a threat. The Virus are too scattered and insane to be a threat by "canon" TNE - they're very dangerous, but they don't have the same kind of focused goals as another human faction would because their interests are ultimately very different.

The initial campaign didn't quite work for whatever reason, however. I dunno why, perhaps it was because the players too easily figured out while the reach of the Guild was long, their grip was weak - once the players started piling up the relic Fusion Guns and Trepida tanks, the Guild wasn't really scary anymore - a few crunch guns with sabot ammo isn't going to stop the futurekreig warriors armed with TL14 battledress and lifeform sensors with ranges in kilometers. Or maybe again it was the influence of the wargamer's wing at GDW who wanted a more traditional military conflict. So first you had the Teldora situation, but when that wasn't enough against the burgeoning militarization of the RC, they had to introduce Solee. Unfortunately, I think the whole "war emphasis" on TNE took away a lot of the wonder and the sense of fallen greatness that the early TNE campaign was great for.
 
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Deadspace exists a concept in TNE where Jump Drives mysteriously do not work and ships are held in a temporal suspension. Maybe the 3I figured a way around that in the waning years of its existance. Perhaps, the Guild has managed to tap into that Deadspace as a spatial shortcut.

For real ? :oo:

Or is that your clever sense of humor ? Book and Page if you have it. (I believe you I just want to see for myself -- and use it).

>
 
The initial campaign didn't quite work for whatever reason, however. I dunno why, perhaps it was because the players too easily figured out while the reach of the Guild was long, their grip was weak - once the players started piling up the relic Fusion Guns and Trepida tanks, the Guild wasn't really scary anymore - a few crunch guns with sabot ammo isn't going to stop the futurekreig warriors armed with TL14 battledress and lifeform sensors with ranges in kilometers.

Are you talking about your own campaign or the GDW bent ?

I thought it plainly stated that the Guild wasn't a military and unless you mean the players as RCES when you say "the players" above then the Guild may or may not give a damn about a single group of PCs -- they'd strongarm those they can and deal with bumps/hiccups at the correct time, but in the meantime concentrate on trade monopoly.

I could see them hiring mercenaries or handling things themselves in a pinch, but otherwise they'd be wasting their time.

If the players are part of the RCES and the GM is handing them all sorts of goodies, well... ;) There's nothing wrong with that either, if that's the way the game goes.

If you were speaking about your own campaign (or one you participated in) please give us more of a taste of what went on. I'm more interested in hearing about the boundaries of the game: "we focused on X ships on so many worlds and facing..." that sort of thing. But anything at this point would be interesting.

>
 
Are you talking about your own campaign or the GDW bent ?

The GDW bent.

I thought it plainly stated that the Guild wasn't a military and unless you mean the players as RCES when you say "the players" above then the Guild may or may not give a damn about a single group of PCs -- they'd strongarm those they can and deal with bumps/hiccups at the correct time, but in the meantime concentrate on trade monopoly.

Yes, exactly. I didn't mean to say that the players were intended by GDW to play members of the Guild.

The assumption of the TNE campaign is that the players will either be members of the Reformation Coalition or closely allied freelancers, but usually in the RC. Most of the scenarios in PoT are written from the point of view that the players are members of the RC - either RCMC, RCES, or RCN. They do make provisions for freelancers, but the assumption is that the players are RC.

The players do tend to accumulate in my experience - and as such, they tend to overpower the local opposition. While you can have the players "loot" get taken away at the end of a scenario, players tend to find other ways to get extra gear: like schoomzing supply sergeants, purchasing gear (or not reporting loot, tsk tsk) then "bribing" officers with booze or something similar to stow it on board for them, so on.

With their concentration of skills and firepower, players usually stomp the local TEDs, which becomes a thorn in the Guild's side as customers and resources are denied them. Now, here's my experience: The structure of the Guild really prevents them from doing anything about it.

If you were speaking about your own campaign (or one you participated in) please give us more of a taste of what went on. I'm more interested in hearing about the boundaries of the game: "we focused on X ships on so many worlds and facing..." that sort of thing. But anything at this point would be interesting.

>

I do run a variant game of TNE, but it's been played for over three years on and off, so it's not quite the original TNE game anymore, sadly.
 
With their concentration of skills and firepower, players usually stomp the local TEDs, which becomes a thorn in the Guild's side as customers and resources are denied them. Now, here's my experience: The structure of the Guild really prevents them from doing anything about it.

Well I don't recall exactly the numbers for The Guild, but it does seem large enough that the players would be putting out various fires all over the place -- at least initially.

But The Guild just sitting around and taking it shouldn't happen either. I'd probably start with an espionage-type campaign against the RCES (mainly the players) and have smaller things happen until mercenaries can be brought in.

It seems to me at some point The Guild might seek help from a TED that the RCES doesn't know about or hasn't gotten around to yet, have The Guild either manufacture evidence that "you're next on the hit list" or show real evidence of same. A well-documented following of RCES activities shouldn't be too hard for The Guild to come up with, forcing a few show downs with para-military groups.***

I'd go for a kidnapping of the players (one of them at least) or some sort of campaign of smear tactics to keep them off-balance.

I think the challenge might be to force stalemates in some areas, just to make the RCES reluctant to enter certain systems or borders.

How does the guild get along with the Hivers/Ithklur ? I don't know much beyond PoT and the Star Vikings book about the setting. < heading over to the Traveller Wiki next >

*** unless that's what you mean by "players stomp TEDs" :oo: :rofl:

>
 
In the PoT materials, it describes that the Guild is sizable but pretty loosely organized.

Their primary goal is profit motive without boundaries, not evil for the sake of being evil - notably, it describes slaving as a profitable thing for many Guild captains. However, the Guild won't be spiteful or cruel if means cutting into their bottom line. They're amoral, not immoral.

The Guild has some overarching goals like control of all starships, control of the education necessary to operate starships (especially astrogation), and keeping worlds isolated from each other. They're pretty loose goals, driven by what the Guild sees as best for it - most captains go along with it because it enhances their own profitability. A lot of Free Traders are impressed into joining the Guild unwillingly, and the materials hint that there's a significant minority of original Guild captains who don't really like the cutthroat business model of the Guild as well. Guild captains out in space compete with each other for markets and profits - there appears to be no cartel within the Guild that controls who sells what where and when.

Here's my game experience as a GM: The Guild doesn't play well together - as an association purely for profit, most Guild members don't really have much stake in the Guild. Guild members are more likely to see one of their fellow captains tangling with the players as an opportunity to get rid of competition than a threat to them all.

Given the players often have a 3-6 TL advantage in fights against the forces of TEDs, they tend to walk all over TEDs. RC standard ground force TL is 12 while a lot of TEDs are hanging around the TL 8 to 9 range, in space the difference is greater. My players tended not to hoard tons of equipment, but they tended to carry the best they could find and are often pushing TL14-15. In situations like that, I find the local TL8 TEDs pretty much don't stand a chance. Smart players (which mine are for the most part) go where they want, they rarely stand still, and always attack with Electronic Warfare superiority. My players (and I) aren't Marc Miller - we simply don't find stomping a World War II era panzer division with TL14 battledress to be any fun and the Guild simply doesn't have the products necessary to really train and arm TEDs to a level where they can provide interesting high TL fights (if such a thing is really even possible the way Traveller TLs are set up).

The real interesting parts of my RC campaign occurred when the more moderate factions of the Guild saw the direction the wind was blowing and decided to get out early and started defecting to the RC when the players managed to convince Maggart to offer an amnesty-and-probation program. So the players had to play "cloak-and-dagger" keeping an eye on a bunch of former Guild captains, which they knew contained infiltrators (but they didn't know who), others who were being approached by less ethical factions in the RC as captains they knew would be "willing to do what's necessary", and so on. (of course, in my campaign, then the Vampire Fleets showed up.)

Conclusion: I think the line about deep space jumps really were highlighting the strengths of the Guild. Without a monopoly on this information, they're really sort of a weak faction. Eventually, I think GDW wanted the RC to face the real threats which they were more suited - the Guild could never field an army or a navy and while the Guild could make like difficult for the RC, they ultimately couldn't ever stop the RC from going where they wanted to, when they wanted to. The RC was laying down all these battalion troop transports and "blue space" naval vessels and needed an enemy like Solee that was more suited to such a military.
 
Would the guild support the Solee or consdier them in the same light as the RC? Perhaps engineer incidents between them to provoke that little war?
 
Would the guild support the Solee or consdier them in the same light as the RC? Perhaps engineer incidents between them to provoke that little war?

The background materials suggest that the Guild would stay out of the RC / Solee fight and hope they'd both destroy each other. The Guild doesn't like anyone having jump capacity besides themselves.

In my opinion, I don't really like "MMO mob" mentality for enemies - an enemy with the ability to scout the RC and so on shouldn't just sit around waiting for destruction. The Guild contains people who are perceptive, have their own hopes and dreams, and are willing to compromise and adapt. The smart money in the Guild has to realize the RC/Solee war is going to have a winner - they will not conveniently blast each other back into the Stone Age - and they'll have to deal with the winner. I think it's something of a foregone conclusion that the RC will win the war against Solee. Solee is to the RC as the Chanstin Kingdom was to nascent Third Imperium. How expensive and how long it will take is the question. If that's as clear to the Guild as it is to us (the players and GMs) is anyone's guess. The likely course for the Guild to follow would be to clandestinely support the loser to ensure the fight is as long and costly as possible for the winner, regardless of who it is.
 
In the PoT materials, it describes that the Guild is sizable but pretty loosely organized.

Their primary goal is profit motive without boundaries, not evil for the sake of being evil - notably, it describes slaving as a profitable thing for many Guild captains. However, the Guild won't be spiteful or cruel if means cutting into their bottom line. They're amoral, not immoral.

The Guild has some overarching goals like control of all starships, control of the education necessary to operate starships (especially astrogation), and keeping worlds isolated from each other. They're pretty loose goals, driven by what the Guild sees as best for it - most captains go along with it because it enhances their own profitability. A lot of Free Traders are impressed into joining the Guild unwillingly, and the materials hint that there's a significant minority of original Guild captains who don't really like the cutthroat business model of the Guild as well. Guild captains out in space compete with each other for markets and profits - there appears to be no cartel within the Guild that controls who sells what where and when.

Here's my game experience as a GM: The Guild doesn't play well together - as an association purely for profit, most Guild members don't really have much stake in the Guild. Guild members are more likely to see one of their fellow captains tangling with the players as an opportunity to get rid of competition than a threat to them all.

Given the players often have a 3-6 TL advantage in fights against the forces of TEDs, they tend to walk all over TEDs. RC standard ground force TL is 12 while a lot of TEDs are hanging around the TL 8 to 9 range, in space the difference is greater. My players tended not to hoard tons of equipment, but they tended to carry the best they could find and are often pushing TL14-15. In situations like that, I find the local TL8 TEDs pretty much don't stand a chance. Smart players (which mine are for the most part) go where they want, they rarely stand still, and always attack with Electronic Warfare superiority. My players (and I) aren't Marc Miller - we simply don't find stomping a World War II era panzer division with TL14 battledress to be any fun and the Guild simply doesn't have the products necessary to really train and arm TEDs to a level where they can provide interesting high TL fights (if such a thing is really even possible the way Traveller TLs are set up).

The real interesting parts of my RC campaign occurred when the more moderate factions of the Guild saw the direction the wind was blowing and decided to get out early and started defecting to the RC when the players managed to convince Maggart to offer an amnesty-and-probation program. So the players had to play "cloak-and-dagger" keeping an eye on a bunch of former Guild captains, which they knew contained infiltrators (but they didn't know who), others who were being approached by less ethical factions in the RC as captains they knew would be "willing to do what's necessary", and so on. (of course, in my campaign, then the Vampire Fleets showed up.)

Conclusion: I think the line about deep space jumps really were highlighting the strengths of the Guild. Without a monopoly on this information, they're really sort of a weak faction. Eventually, I think GDW wanted the RC to face the real threats which they were more suited - the Guild could never field an army or a navy and while the Guild could make like difficult for the RC, they ultimately couldn't ever stop the RC from going where they wanted to, when they wanted to. The RC was laying down all these battalion troop transports and "blue space" naval vessels and needed an enemy like Solee that was more suited to such a military.

Very nice.

Your really getting me interested in TNE.

>
 
Very nice.

Your really getting me interested in TNE.

>

You should give it a try.

At the ground level, TNE is a lot of fun - it's probably the best travellerverse setting that exists (I personally like 2300 even more, but that's not "real" Traveller, it's better ;) ). It's a nice, refreshing break (to me) from the usual morally very-dark-almost-black morality of most Traveller games. It's nice to have players have a mix of idealists and tarnished idealists added to the Traveller staple of "realists" (ie; "it's okay to kill women and children as long they're not anyone we know").

There's obvious a lot of warts to the game system, probably covered in exhaustive detail in past threads, mostly concerning the Hiver & Ithklur sourcebook, the Virus, and TNE's system. However, there's fun like roleplaying players attending Auction, making do with limited (or very limited) resources, traveling the universe in creaky old starships, and of course, wandering around the ruins of the Third Imperium.
 
You should give it a try.

It's a nice, refreshing break (to me) from the usual morally very-dark-almost-black morality of most Traveller games. It's nice to have players have a mix of idealists and tarnished idealists added to the Traveller staple of "realists" (ie; "it's okay to kill women and children as long they're not anyone we know").


???

I thought TNE was the darker/est of all the incarnations ? Unless you have
some very dark classic-era games and players.

I must say, even my own black-guards don't kill women and children but that's just me.

Mega Traveller's rebellion and Hard Times seem to approach this, but I thought TNE was farther beyond that.


>
 
???

I thought TNE was the darker/est of all the incarnations ? Unless you have
some very dark classic-era games and players.

I must say, even my own black-guards don't kill women and children but that's just me.

Mega Traveller's rebellion and Hard Times seem to approach this, but I thought TNE was farther beyond that.


>

No, Hard Times is as bad as it gets. TNE is 3 generations past that, where things begin to get better. New Era is all about hope and the rebirth of humanity. The RC are three dimensional, and don't get everything right. They have disagreements and vested interests, but it is also clear that they are the shining beacon of hope for the old Imperium.
 
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