TNE Only: TNE Combat

[Supplement Four]

I looked over TNE Combat. I've never played it. Man! Is it detailed! I can see that the T4/T5 task systems evolved out of that from TNE. Character + Stat give you a target number. Roll a d20 for that number or less.

The detail attracts me.

One thing that stood out like a huge red flag, though, was the math. Multiplying and dividing big numbers.

Difficulty is a multiple of the C+S target number. If I've got Stat-A and Skill-3, then my target is 13. If I roll an Easy check, my target is 13 x 4.

Quick, what's 13 x 4?

That seems like it would bog down play. Calculators needed for some targets.

What do you TNE players have to say about that from experience?

 

[Gallowglacht]

Been a while since I played it. One thing I really appreciated was not having to scale or convert between scales in combat. Armour and penetration worked the same for personal armour, through vehicles all the way up to starships. Multiplication didn't seem like a time sink, but rolling for lots of short bursts did. It seemed like there were too many hit points too, so we switched to a wound level type system. I remember it being detailed and fun, although after a few years I played subsequent campaigns using a modified Spacemaster rules set for my detailed and fun combat in the TNE setting.

 

[mike wightman]

The core mechanic for task resolution works pretty well in play (52 by the way), what is broken IMHO is the damage to PCs.

After running the first combat where players realised they could charge plasma gun equipped goons and expect only flesh wounds the house rule hammer came out...

Then we just dropped the d20 system and went back to running it with CT+HR

 

[Supplement Four]

Rolling a die for every bullet! Wow!

I've never played it, but I always wanted to see what that was like.

Doing a five round burst would be OK, I would assume, picking up five d20's and rolling them together, comparing all to your target number.

But, I read that a character could pull the trigger five times per round, and if set for burst fire, that mean 25 bullets fired in a round....for 25 freakin' d20 rolls.

Wow!

I could see that bogging the game down.

 

[aramis]

I looked over TNE Combat. I've never played it. Man! Is it detailed! I can see that the T4/T5 task systems evolved out of that from TNE. Character + Stat give you a target number. Roll a d20 for that number or less.

The detail attracts me.

One thing that stood out like a huge red flag, though, was the math. Multiplying and dividing big numbers.

Difficulty is a multiple of the C+S target number. If I've got Stat-A and Skill-3, then my target is 13. If I roll an Easy check, my target is 13 x 4.

Quick, what's 13 x 4?

That seems like it would bog down play. Calculators needed for some targets.

What do you TNE players have to say about that from experience?

When I ran it, since each skill was directly assigned to one att, they just precalculated it all.

So, Astrogation 3 on an edu 9 character would be
Astrogation 3 E36/R24/D12/F6/I3

Also note - no damage to attributes, damage to hit locations instead, and NPC's have different damage mechanics...

 

[Gallowglacht]

Rolling a die for every bullet! Wow!

I've never played it, but I always wanted to see what that was like.

Doing a five round burst would be OK, I would assume, picking up five d20's and rolling them together, comparing all to your target number.

But, I read that a character could pull the trigger five times per round, and if set for burst fire, that mean 25 bullets fired in a round....for 25 freakin' d20 rolls.

Wow!

I could see that bogging the game down.

Recoil will often reduce the amount of dice rolled, or make it counter-productive to take all those shots anyway. However it does so at the cost of having to calculate recoil. It gets quicker as you get used to it and develop habits (3 5 round burst were common among my players) but it is undeniably on the crunchy end of the spectrum.

If you think 25 rolls is bad, don't look at the support laser set to low power. 250 shots if I remember right, AKA, "frack it, everything in this area is hit".

 

[aramis]

Recoil will often reduce the amount of dice rolled, or make it counter-productive to take all those shots anyway. However it does so at the cost of having to calculate recoil. It gets quicker as you get used to it and develop habits (3 5 round burst were common among my players) but it is undeniably on the crunchy end of the spectrum.

If you think 25 rolls is bad, don't look at the support laser set to low power. 250 shots if I remember right, AKA, "frack it, everything in this area is hit".

But you don't roll for every shot. Anything with larger than 10 round bursts is in increments of 50 rounds, treated as a 10 round but doing 3 shots hitting per rolled hit. (See p. 277)

 

[jcrocker]

It worked out well for our group. No one complained about any aspect of combat, and there were a few questions about "what's X times Y again?" every so often, but you got into the groove pretty quickly.

Whenever someone talked about the combat afterward, it was always about the in-game events, not problems with the system.

 

[Oddball]

I've been using the GDW D20 system for many years as referee. We started with Twilight:2000 v2.2 and then continued with Traveller:The New Era. And right now, we are using this same system for Dark Conspiracy. In fact, we have some ongoing campaigns in the three games.

I would not say that the GDW D20 system is the best, but it's true that has allowed me and my players to switch between three game worlds we consider very attractive with very little effort. If I must choose one important point in favor of GDW D20 system, I will take this.

Now, just talking about how the rules work, I've played CT in the past, and I find the TNE system much more suitable. And this is especially true when talking about the combat rules. Once the players have used the system in a pair of game sessions, the combat is fast, furious and detailed. If I must choose a game system as a complete package, I will go for GURPS. But if considering only the combat chapter (focused in modern and sci-fi ranged combat), GDW D20 is more suitable.

Rolling one dice for shot (except for high rate of fire weapons, as Aramis stated) does not slow the game. If you have Small Rifle:12 and ten rounds can hit the target, it is very quicly to roll a handful of ten dices and see how many of them are equal o less than 3. Ok, I’m simplifying. There are location, damage, armor values, ranges, recoil, etc. But, from my point of view, the rules give the player more choices and are quite easy to use with some practice.

The system has some weak points, too. It is true that playing characters can suffer a severe punishment before falling dead. I think this is an old discussion matter among the users of the system. But injuries have consequences (initiative reduction, unconsciousness, the need of constitution rolls…) and players can have the feeling that their characters are in risk in every combat situation. A head injury (using the double damage rule if D20 is less or equal the damage suffred), can kill some characters and put others out of combat.

Difficulty levels could be another weak point. But they are easy to handle and you will never find yourself calculating strange numbers. The referee can considere to use small modifiers to the target number is fine adjustment is required

We use some house rules (variable Characteristics depending of how a skill is used, for example), but my overall opinion about the system is positive. It could be better, but works good enough.

 

[Carlobrand]

... Quick, what's 13 x 4? ...

52.

I've got a fair head for basic math, so numbers have never bothered me. The advanced stuff, with the squiggles and the Ln's and such, that's tricky. But the other stuff: when you're an AD&D mage trying to toss a fireball down a tunnel without frying your party, and the DM expects you to have a decision ready when he calls your turn, you get to where you can calculate quickly.

I remember another fantasy-based game where I had these explosive-gem-tipped arrows I'd been given to deal with this big, big baddie. It was a D6-only game. That was something like 20 D6 I had to roll and add up - which was curiously satisfying given the magnitude of the threat I was facing.

There ought to be a way to pre-calculate some of that, no? Keep it on a character sheet or a property sheet?

 

[Kilgs]

IMO, it's one of the most coherent systems for Traveller except for... (wait for it) dominance of attributes v. skills. Other than that, I love it.

Much of the errata to T2K would be recommended. Use d10's instead of d6's for damage. Can't remember the other stuff.

 

[Lapthorn]

Much of the errata to T2K would be recommended. Use d10's instead of d6's for damage. Can't remember the other stuff.

What was the best iteration of the GDW d20 system? T2k 2nd edition, TNE..?

 

[aramis]

What was the best iteration of the GDW d20 system? T2k 2nd edition, TNE..?

The primary differences (the only differences in rules of play I can recall) is in character generation and the T2K additional option for weapon specialization.

 

[Oddball]

What was the best iteration of the GDW d20 system? T2k 2nd edition, TNE..?

IMHO, TNE. Essentially is the same system previosly introduced with Twilight:2000 v2.2. The most important chapters regarding the rules are nearly identical. Of course, TNE have all the needed rules, statistics and equipment to play in a sci-fi environtment. And the TNE rulebook is much more "universal". For example, TNE skill list is more complete in all the non-combat aspects.

 

[Kilgs]

IMHO, TNE. Essentially is the same system previosly introduced with Twilight:2000 v2.2. The most important chapters regarding the rules are nearly identical. Of course, TNE have all the needed rules, statistics and equipment to play in a sci-fi environtment. And the TNE rulebook is much more "universal". For example, TNE skill list is more complete in all the non-combat aspects.

I would agree that TNE is the more "complete" game. T2kv2.2 has a bit more stuff particular to the genre. But TNE is basically the same thing with many more options. In fact, TNE fixes some skill types that were lacking in T2K and does a better job with other kinds of tech and tasks.

I really like it. If they hadn't gone and buggered the ship system/space combat by getting all serious wargamer/engineer, I think it would have taken off. But I can't even look at the Architects Manual without getting a headache. Who cares if my laser is 150mj vs. 100? Just say "big" and "small"!

 

[Oddball]

If they hadn't gone and buggered the ship system/space combat by getting all serious wargamer/engineer, I think it would have taken off. But I can't even look at the Architects Manual without getting a headache. Who cares if my laser is 150mj vs. 100? Just say "big" and "small"!

I completly agree.

And about the matter that TNE is a more complete game, I will add that it could be used like a "generic" system in any modern or sci-fi background.

 

[Gallowglacht]

But you don't roll for every shot. Anything with larger than 10 round bursts is in increments of 50 rounds, treated as a 10 round but doing 3 shots hitting per rolled hit. (See p. 277)

This is entirely true.
But we were poor high school students with 3-4 d20's. Rolling 50 dice required 13+ goes, plus re-rolling half of the misses on other targets in the immediate area. It seemed excessive.
Not as bad as the 250 dice implied by my bad wording of course, but still a lot of dice rolling.

This thread encouraged me to re-read the TNE corebook and now I am pining for a TNE campaign again...

 

[aramis]

This is entirely true.
But we were poor high school students with 3-4 d20's. Rolling 50 dice required 13+ goes, plus re-rolling half of the misses on other targets in the immediate area. It seemed excessive.
Not as bad as the 250 dice implied by my bad wording of course, but still a lot of dice rolling.

This thread encouraged me to re-read the TNE corebook and now I am pining for a TNE campaign again...

We simply did the math - if 50 is 3 hits per roll and 10d, 100 is 6 hits per roll and 10d, 150 is 9 hits per roll and 10d, 200 is 12 hits per roll and 10d, etc...

 

[Kilgs]

We simply did the math...

Nerd ;-)

 

[aramis]

Nerd ;-)

Yup! (But my GPA didn't show it until college.)