TNE Canon material question

[William]

As I've gotten badly bitten by the 1248 bug, I've been scrounging all of the various materials that I never had the first time around. This also allows me to make some sense of the various things that with only the main book and "S&G" made me go "huh?" to more than a few threads here.

So, I've scrounged up copies of PoT, VF, and RSB over the past few weeks (hoo boy, especially VF and RSB - there's a nasty mess waiting to explode), along with a copy of WTH that is in the mail somewhere between Wisconsin and China IIUC... These have already illuminated this grasshopper greatly, but I'm curious if the various bits I'm missing add much to the back story (Read this as - I'd prefer to make semi-coherent comments about the draft when it comes out at xmass or whenever). So, as I look over my list all that is missing from the official material are the 2 equiptment guides, Battle Rider, and Guilded Lily. Are any of these critical to forming an understanding of TNE as it existed and as MJD picks up the pieces?

Also, MJD, how will the bits in the BARD site be handled? Canon, apocryphia, tossed on the trash? At this point I have no vested interest, so I'm a good one ask about it... I'm putting together a pocket empire campaign that I'm going to try to meld into the 1248 material as it comes out and I'd simply rather avoid material that will be diplaced. If you'd rather not say at this point that's understood, I'm just asking out of essential laziness anyway...

Thanks all,

William

 

[Rupert Boleyn]

Originally posted by William:

So, I've scrounged up copies of PoT, VF, and RSB over the past few weeks (hoo boy, especially VF and RSB - there's a nasty mess waiting to explode), along with a copy of WTH that is in the mail somewhere between Wisconsin and China IIUC... These have already illuminated this grasshopper greatly, but I'm curious if the various bits I'm missing add much to the back story (Read this as - I'd prefer to make semi-coherent comments about the draft when it comes out at xmass or whenever). So, as I look over my list all that is missing from the official material are the 2 equiptment guides, Battle Rider, and Guilded Lily. Are any of these critical to forming an understanding of TNE as it existed and as MJD picks up the pieces?

I can't say about the Recency Vehicle Guide (I don't have it), but the REG doesn't have a whole lot on the backstory in it, so you don't need it except for the cool toys. The Guilded Lily has hints of interesting happenings with the Vampires and the Guild IIRC.

 

[TheDS]

You are also simply not until you own Fire Fusion and Steel.

 

[MJD]

The mentioned books are not especially relevant.

I don't go to the BARD pages and I try not to be influenced by other people's work for obvious reasons. So BARD etc is not relevant.

 

[DED]

BARD is material created by TNE fans to fill in the gaps that GDW never got to. While most, if not all of it, won't ever be "canonized", it remains a great collection of material for GM's to utilize in their own TU's.

BARD is one of those websites that "kept the flame" over the years while TNE fans waited for "something official" to arise after GDW's death. DN wouldn't divulge his secrets. T4 was a letdown. And Gurps wasn't allowed to go down that road.

TNE fans could either quit playing or develop new material and share it with others. BARD is the result of those who chose the latter. While other websites have arisen, including mine, BARD remains the best. The one drawback is that Lewis Roberts doesn't have the time to maintain it, so it's become a bit stale.

But we finally have a licensed game developer and a line editor willing to continue the story, with MM's blessing. Apparently they're fans too. And (if my sources are correct) a handful of those contributors to BARD are working behind the scenes to help 1248 see the light of day.

Do I sound like a cheerleader? I'll go put my pom-poms away.

 

[Whipsnade]

DED wrote:

"But we finally have a licensed game developer and a line editor willing to continue the story, with MM's blessing."


Sir,

Yes, it is exciting isn't it? The Traveller story will continue. Our Olde Game about the Far Future will finally begin dealing with its own future again, something that hasn't happened since GDW closed and TNE shambled on like some undead zombie.

One minor nit; the Traveller story will continue by jumping over and rendering moot the TNE story. In M:1248, TNE will be history, dusty dead history. The inhabitants of M:1248 will still be dealing with leftover issues from the TNE Era, but the TNE story is dead - just as the CT, MT, and T4 stories are dead too. Parts of them do live on, but they're dee-eee-aye-dee DEAD DEAD DEAD.

IMEHO, TNE being dead is a good thing. MT's Rebellion was a mistake from the beginning, while TNE's 'solution' further compounded that error and nearly killed Traveller in the process.

The zombie is finally gone. TNE is finally dead and long live Traveller!

Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
The zombie is finally gone. TNE is finally dead and long live Traveller!

Except it's not really dead, is it. 1248 builds on the TNE background, not CT. Virus is still there (in some form or other), the Empress Wave is explained, the RC and Regency WERE there, and other stuff's happened that wouldn't have happened if the 3I hadn't collapsed.

So while TNE may be 'dead', its genes are certainly living on in the new setting. And from the sounds of it, there's still no huge, back-to-normal 4I - I've got the impression that there are still areas of Wilds and places where people don't go.

 

[Whipsnade]

Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:

"Except it's not really dead, is it. 1248 builds on the TNE background, not CT."

"So while TNE may be 'dead', its genes are certainly living on in the new setting."


Dr. Thomas,

Gee, exactly which bits of my post, primarily "The inhabitants of M:1248 will still be dealing with leftover issues from the TNE Era..." and "Parts of them do live on..." portions, did you fail to understand?

Sure, TNE will 'live' on as part of Traveller history, but as part of the M:1248 backstory. Happily, it will no longer be the final chapter of the OTU story, as it has been for far too many years.

Traveller's future story has been on hold for nearly a decade now, trapped in the zombie corpse of TNE. Our game about the future had been ignoring its own future story. During that time, we had an Alternate Timeline Story; GT, and two Back-to-the-Future Tineline Stories; T4 and T20. However, the actual OTU story, the story we've all been following since 1978 through CT, MT, and TNE had stopped.

M:1248 marks the rebirth of the OTU story and provides a mechanism for that story to move on into the future. M:1248 does this by finally burying TNE, just as TNE buried MT, and MT buried CT. Our problem over the last decade has been that the OTU story as embodied in TNE was dead and no one could be bothered to inter the corpse. IIRC, Dulinor leveled a similar charge against Strephon with regards to the Third Imperium.

Please believe me, this isn't about TNE being 'bad', as in it being a 'bad' RPG setting or a 'bad' RPG system. TNE is none of those things. This is about TNE being dead on its feet and no one bothering to bury the corpse so that Traveller could move on.

The king is dead, long live the king!

TNE is dead, long live Traveller!


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Sorry, I misinterpreted your gladness to be rid of TNE and the 'shambling like a zombie' phrases, and my anti-TNE ranter defences kicked in - I blame the flu I'm getting over . I follow you now though.

Yes, I'm glad the background is going to be developed further. I for one never saw TNE as the 'end of the line' for Traveller, and frankly I'm getting rather sick of the 'let's go back to a random past era in the CT timeline' option too.

 

[Whipsnade]

Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:

"Sorry, I misinterpreted your gladness to be rid of TNE and the 'shambling like a zombie' phrases, and my anti-TNE ranter defences kicked in - I blame the flu I'm getting over . I follow you now though."


Dr. Thomas,

Mea culpa. My first post could have, should have, been clearer.

I would have liked nothing more than seeing Traveller's story move forward under TNE's banner over the last 10 years. However, it became readily apparent within a few years of GDW's shutting up shop that TNE was dead - no matter how good TNE actually was.

Our Olde Hobby kept fumbling along, either by developing alternate and back-to-the-future timelines or by wasting time with increasingly futile efforts to revive TNE. TNE was dead, plain and simple. We needed to bury it and move on. It's a shame it has taken this long to finally admit the fact.

"Yes, I'm glad the background is going to be developed further. I for one never saw TNE as the 'end of the line' for Traveller, and frankly I'm getting rather sick of the 'let's go back to a random past era in the CT timeline' option too."

TNE wasn't meant to be the 'end of the line' and having that horrid label stuck on TNE for all these years is a crying shame. With M:1248, we can bury TNE - or more accurately - bury the idea that TNE is the 'end of the line'.

This is just my opinion and I have never met the man or communicated with him BUT I get the distinct impression that Marc W. Miller loathes the TNE setting and what it did to his Imperium. Why do I have that suspician? A couple of things really;

- The ill fated and hurried launch of T4. He could have continued publishing TNE; he owns it, and spent time developing T4. Instead, the Hobby gets a never playtested, wretchedly written, 'back-to-future' version of Traveller that avoids the TNE setting like a leper with HIV.
- The schedule of Reprints. FFE is tackling Twilight:2000 next. Odd no? Reprint all of CT and then jump to a completely different game. Why? I can see a hesistation about MT thanks to the Idiot Sanger's continued possession of DGP's work, but why not reprint TNE? The eBay prices for various TNE products are astonishing. Shouldn't you print what people will buy? Do more folks actually want T:2000, a game with dozens of books printed for close to ten years and loads of purchasable copies still floating about?

Of course, that is just one congenitally suspicious, low minded, greyheaded, bad, old, fat man's opinion. I'm certain that Mr. Miller's mileage most certainly does vary.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[MJD]

While BARD is not relevant to the development of canon-1248 and I won't be referring to it at any point (I've never been to the BARD pages, tempted though I was), it does remain a pile of good stuff for players and refs to use.

What I meant was, well, you don't need it to make sense of 1248. I certainly didn't mean to sound like I was putting it or its contrributors down.

Some of the ideas that populated BARD etc will end up in 1248. Not because I read and stole them but because the development process will involve some of the flame-keepers and their ideas will inevitably filter into 1248.

Those who took the huff and became hostile, on the other hand, won't be involved and won't influence the final product.

 

[MJD]

BTW: I planned on starting 1248 on Oct 1st. Since Homecoming has spilled out into OCT (but it's almost finished), I'll be a little late. But we're getting there.

 

[Rupert Boleyn]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:

This is just my opinion and I have never met the man or communicated with him BUT I get the distinct impression that Marc W. Miller loathes the TNE setting and what it did to his Imperium.

I've seen people come right out and say this in the TML, but I've never seen Mr. Miller actually say anything on the topic.

- The schedule of Reprints. FFE is tackling Twilight:2000 next. Odd no? Reprint all of CT and then jump to a completely different game. Why? I can see a hesistation about MT thanks to the Idiot Sanger's continued possession of DGP's work, but why not reprint TNE? The eBay prices for various TNE products are astonishing. Shouldn't you print what people will buy? Do more folks actually want T:2000, a game with dozens of books printed for close to ten years and loads of purchasable copies still floating about?

2300AD is also being reprinted, and while some of the 2300AD work is hard to get, much of it is not.

 

[Whipsnade]

Rupert wrote:

"I've seen people come right out and say this in the TML, but I've never seen Mr. Miller actually say anything on the topic."


Mr. Boleyn,

As I said; it's just one cranky old man's opinion and is based on 'feelings' alone. AFAIK, Mr. Miller has never said anything about the topic and I don't believe he ever will.

"2300AD is also being reprinted, and while some of the 2300AD work is hard to get, much of it is not."

Again, more oddities in the Reprint schedule. Both T:2000 and 2300AD get reprinted while TNE is left alone. More fodder for my late night bouts with insomnia.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[TheDS]

A shame, too, because I thought TNE was a better game design, better core. I can't say I really liked the virus thing, the empress wave thing, and a few other story points, but I thought it was taking the game engine into a completely alien direction: TOWARDS realism.

Consider:
Stats for vehicles and guns and stuff like that all given in "realworld" values. Anyone could look up what a megajoule was, find out what it could do to a steel plate of known thickness, and compare that to the game, and see that it was close (or if not, MAKE it close). Anyone could take real stats for real guns and convert them into stats for the game very easily. FFS wasn't needed for anything beyond the energy-to-damage formulas and bulk. Maintenance requirements, spelled out. How much damage something could take. You could get yourself an inch-thick piece of sheet metal and wrap it around you and see just how much encumbrance it caused, and why you really needed a powered exoskeleton to carry that much metal.

The task system got a piece of relative consistency. The change of a difficulty would make the task twice as easy/hard as the previous level. DMs were of a specific weight, though there were hardly ever any given any more because of this. Using skills is based on an attribute, something quite popular in games now (GURPS is a big example). Combat ranges were based on the RANGE, and not on a wacky range-band thought-exercise. Guns' accuracies were more variable; you design a shotgun, its range isn't guaranteed to be the same as all other shotguns.

Most importantly, you could design your own stuff if they didn't have what you wanted, and you knew they weren't "making up stats to look cool" :COUGH: robotech :COUGH: marvel :COUGH:.

Yeah, a few things changed for the worse, like replacing Thruster plates with HEPlaR, and fusion rockets becoming worthless, but at least they were a bit more realistic (like, COACC lets you use fusion rockets on jets).

And they certainly upheld the GDW standards of quality: books that fall apart within a year, misprints and typoes galore, and changing rules (putting the heat back into plasma), but at least they (intended to) reprinted the books that needed changes.

Whether MWM likes it or not, he needs to come to grips with the fact that there are people who LIKE TNE. I daresay it's got one of the most fanatical followings (and as an owner of 7 Commodore/Amiga computers and countless products for them, I think I recognize fanatacism when I see it). We would like to see the planned projects come to a more graceful conclusion. There's a third novel, another part or two of the Guilded Lily adventure, and an updated edition of FFS we'd like to see. If he doesn't want to do it, there's people who would jump at the chance.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by TheDS:
Whether MWM likes it or not, he needs to come to grips with the fact that there are people who LIKE TNE. ... We would like to see the planned projects come to a more graceful conclusion. ... If he doesn't want to do it, there's people who would jump at the chance.

I would say he has recognized it. MJD is writing the 1248 book. And that's about the best that can be done. (Whether that is fortunate or unfortunate depends on you POV.)

 

[MJD]

I am, too.

Writing it, that is.

I started it this afternoon.

 

[William]

Originally posted by MJD:
I am, too.

Writing it, that is.

I started it this afternoon.

Hoo-Ah! "All I want for christmass is a pdf..."

William

 

[Morte]

Originally posted by MJD:
I am, too.

Writing it, that is.

I started it this afternoon.

And there was rejoicing across the land.

 

[DED]

Originally posted by MJD:
While BARD is not relevant to the development of canon-1248 and I won't be referring to it at any point (I've never been to the BARD pages, tempted though I was), it does remain a pile of good stuff for players and refs to use.

What I meant was, well, you don't need it to make sense of 1248. I certainly didn't mean to sound like I was putting it or its contrributors down.

You mistake my reason for posting. I did not take your comments in a negative way. I found your reply a bit succint, so I decided to just add a more lengthy reply, with a description of BARD for those unfamiliar with it.

Some of the ideas that populated BARD etc will end up in 1248. Not because I read and stole them but because the development process will involve some of the flame-keepers and their ideas will inevitably filter into 1248.

Yes. And I mentioned that. I think that it's great that those guys are involved.

Those who took the huff and became hostile, on the other hand, won't be involved and won't influence the final product.

Right. And we shan't mention them here.