Tl2+?

[rancke]

In another thread I mentioned my explanation for why Knorbes has a TL of 2 despite being in open contact with the universe around it, namely that there's a religious ban against any power source other than "work, wind, and water". 'Work' was originally muscle power, but got extended to include mechanical power storage (springs and weights). The Church also decided that gunpowder weapons were acceptable. But steam is forbidden, as is combustion. Electricty is right out.

So I was wondering, what sort of devices would four generations of inventors come up with to substitute for devices that on other worlds involve more advanced power sources?

I don't know if it makes a difference, but while banned power sources cannot be used for manufacture on Knorbes, the Church might overlook imported devices that were produced using Forbidden Technology as long as the devices themselves don't use any.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Quite far I suspect given those limitations. Manufacturing is a critical determinant of what can be produced at each TL. Especially the manufacture of tools.

Consider that TL 1 involves only the simplest of manufacturing processes and tools - those made of metals with low melting points produced in small quantities with a very high investment in man-hours of labor. While TL 2 has steel, the process of making steel at TL 2 involves heating and hammering iron ore until all of the impurities are removed using only muscle power and skill. Learning to read the carbon content from the color of the heated metal is a skill very few will maser and even then only after half a lifetime of experience.

Contrast this with the TL 3 method of iron production using a Pig Furnace. Layers of ore, coal and lime (or some material to serve the same purpose) are heated in a giant pot to manufacture tons of liquid cast iron per man-day rather than ounces. Wind and Water, pulleys and gears should allow enough automation to achieve this level of production. Your society now has vast quantities of cast iron at it’s disposal allowing for wide spread use of machinery. This would permit a mechanized agricultural revolution with horse drawn cultivators and combines reducing the required farming population from 90% of the general population to less than 50% of the general population - allowing 40%+ of the population to move from food production to manufacturing.

With large cities located around factories powered by wind and water, and off-world knowledge of more advanced technologies, your world should be able to advance to TL 4 steel production with Bessemer Converters. Forcing a blast of air through the molten cast iron eliminates virtually all of the carbon - converting cast iron to pure iron. Adding back carefully measured amounts of carbon and other additives creates steel. This can be done using wind powered blowers and water powered bellows. Horse drawn rail cars or water powered cable cars (like San Francisco with waterwheels replacing steam engines) are now possible.

Wood and metal working machine tools - like lathes and grinders and drill presses and saws can all be manufactured and powered by wind and water. Location is critical and chronic labor shortages (due to sub-optimal farming without tractors) keep wages high.

Without an effective means to store energy (like wood or oil for combustion engines) transportation will remain primitive, reducing large scale trade and encouraging more regional diversification between essentially isolated population centers. Large sailing ships could reduce this effect if the world has enough water and the cities can be reached.

There is one possible fly in this ointment. Your hypothetical government/religion bans both internal and external combustion as a power source and all metal working is built on external combustion processes to refine ore. If the church bans the blacksmith’s fire, then you are TL 0 (no metal).

In the end, except for the transportation industry, your world could easily resemble the early 1900’s (pre WW1). Manufacturing the semi-automatic pistol, Thompson SMG, foot powered sewing machines, lighthouses, suspension bridges, precision clocks and watches, telescope and semaphore communication networks (like the telegraph). A Babbage Mechanical Computer is possible, but I see few practical uses under these restrictions other than actuarial tables for insurance purposes or calculating the tides.

Science and the church will be at constant odds. It is hard to ‘not’ pursue obvious avenues of advancement. Research may be stifled outside of a few limited areas (perhaps not intentional, but an unavoidable consequence of having inquiries deemed ‘inappropriate’ and thus encouraging those in new fields to pursue safer areas of study.)

Photography, celluloid, lenses and gas lamps open up the remote possibility of a silent movie. Phonographs make sound movies possible, but amplification might pose insurmountable obstacles.

 

[mike wightman]

When you say no electricity does that include simple chemical batteries? There is evidence the ancient egyptions could make these.

Springs allow clockwork, so how about clockwork radios etc?

 

[robject]

Water-powered computers ought to be interesting.

Some fancy combined abacus-slide rule that lets the average brain do any sort of calculation at all.

Single-person sailcraft for, say, travelling at 30kph for a couple hours at a stretch.

 

[atpollard]

Water-powered computers ought to be interesting.

I would imagine something more like wind or water winding a falling weight clockwork that provides mechanical power for the "computer". I just can't figure out what to DO with a computer in a pre-electricity society.

Design rubber band powered aircraft?
Wind up automobiles?

In the real world, 'automated' weaving looms with 'programmed' patterns led to the first mechanical computers - but the church might frown on anything that takes the person out of the loop completely.

 

[aramis]

I would imagine something more like wind or water winding a falling weight clockwork that provides mechanical power for the "computer". I just can't figure out what to DO with a computer in a pre-electricity society.

Calculate taxes and censuses, engineer's tables, and artillery tables. Which is exactly what the first real mechanical computers were used for.

 

[Maccat]

Use a boat and the anchor rope is a pully that runs a bellows onshore, for pressurized air (wind) power storage/supply. Heck there are even compressed air cars in Europe *now*!

For computer stuff, there are those astrolabe wind-up planet/moon/sun orbital stuff i.e where to point the telescope to find in-jumping ships maybe?

If there's something reflective in orbit, could be used for heliograph/light based communication maybe using light up to it and then a telescope to see it "blink" ~ morse. Said windy pointer thing would help immensely there.

No fire I agree metallurgy would be rough no? Then again maybe they just dug a cave into the side of a Volcano and use that as the heat for their blast furnace, air bellow to carry the CO2 away.

 

[rancke]

Consider that TL 1 involves only the simplest of manufacturing processes and tools - those made of metals with low melting points produced in small quantities with a very high investment in man-hours of labor. While TL 2 has steel, the process of making steel at TL 2 involves heating and hammering iron ore until all of the impurities are removed using only muscle power and skill. Learning to read the carbon content from the color of the heated metal is a skill very few will maser and even then only after half a lifetime of experience.

Contrast this with the TL 3 method of iron production using a Pig Furnace. Layers of ore, coal and lime (or some material to serve the same purpose) are heated in a giant pot to manufacture tons of liquid cast iron per man-day rather than ounces. Wind and Water, pulleys and gears should allow enough automation to achieve this level of production. Your society now has vast quantities of cast iron at it’s disposal allowing for wide spread use of machinery. This would permit a mechanized agricultural revolution with horse drawn cultivators and combines reducing the required farming population from 90% of the general population to less than 50% of the general population - allowing 40%+ of the population to move from food production to manufacturing.

I've postulated that higher-than-TL2 items are more expensive to produce, resulting in (as a rule of thumb) TL 2 implements costing what they normally cost, TL 3 implements costing 5 times their base price, TL 4 implements costing 15 times their base price, and TL 5 implements costing 25 times their base price. I can change that (it's mostly grabbed out of thin air, anyway), but for Knorbes to be classified as TL2, I believe a majority of the technology used by a majority of the population would have to be TL2. Just how big a majority is another matter. I've also postulated that about 90% of all implements are TL 2; about 9% are TL 3; most of the rest are TL 4. Only about 1/10th of one percent is TL 5 and above. Again, I can change that a bit, but TL2 still has to be prominent.

With large cities located around factories powered by wind and water, and off-world knowledge of more advanced technologies, your world should be able to advance to TL 4 steel production with Bessemer Converters. Forcing a blast of air through the molten cast iron eliminates virtually all of the carbon - converting cast iron to pure iron. Adding back carefully measured amounts of carbon and other additives creates steel. This can be done using wind powered blowers and water powered bellows. Horse drawn rail cars or water powered cable cars (like San Francisco with waterwheels replacing steam engines) are now possible.

Those would be nice touches, as long as they are comparatively rare. (I especially like the water powered cable cars -- that's just the kind of suggestions I was hoping for ).

Wood and metal working machine tools - like lathes and grinders and drill presses and saws can all be manufactured and powered by wind and water. Location is critical and chronic labor shortages (due to sub-optimal farming without tractors) keep wages high.

And costs high too, right?

Without an effective means to store energy (like wood or oil for combustion engines) transportation will remain primitive, reducing large scale trade and encouraging more regional diversification between essentially isolated population centers. Large sailing ships could reduce this effect if the world has enough water and the cities can be reached.

I've uploaded a map of Knorbes' larger continent (the smaller continent is almost empty of people) here:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Gallery/index.php?n=685

It shows Main two centuries ago. Note that every city in the Classic Era is located somewhere other than the cities shown on the map -- they are all still taboo. I haven't done the maps for Year 1000 or the Classic Era yet.

There is one possible fly in this ointment. Your hypothetical government/religion bans both internal and external combustion as a power source and all metal working is built on external combustion processes to refine ore. If the church bans the blacksmith’s fire, then you are TL 0 (no metal).

No, I don't think that's likely. Fire is just too useful. Personally, I think that the real dividing line for technophobes is more likely to be electricity than steam. But since Knorbes is TL2, I had to ban steam too.

In the end, except for the transportation industry, your world could easily resemble the early 1900’s (pre WW1). Manufacturing the semi-automatic pistol, Thompson SMG, foot powered sewing machines, lighthouses, suspension bridges, precision clocks and watches, telescope and semaphore communication networks (like the telegraph).

But could one plausibly have that early 1900s stuff be rarer than it was in our world?

Science and the church will be at constant odds. It is hard to ‘not’ pursue obvious avenues of advancement. Research may be stifled outside of a few limited areas (perhaps not intentional, but an unavoidable consequence of having inquiries deemed ‘inappropriate’ and thus encouraging those in new fields to pursue safer areas of study.)

There wouldn't be any scientists as such. There are no secrets of nature to discover. Instead, I see inventors who improve devices within the acceptable limits.


Hans

 

[rancke]

In the real world, 'automated' weaving looms with 'programmed' patterns led to the first mechanical computers - but the church might frown on anything that takes the person out of the loop completely.

No, that's not the concern. Here's what I've written about the Church of Wisdom so far (This writeup is for Year 1000, when it still hadn't become the universal state church of a monolitic empire):

The Church of Wisdom

As society slowly began to recover from the devastation of the Rain of Death and its aftereffects, the notion that the disaster had been some sort of divine punishment arose independently in many places across the continent. These ideas evolved into a number of different beliefs with the same basic core. In 949, a group of religious leaders met in the town of Eriuu and hammered out a coherent set of beliefs for what was to become known as the Church of Wisdom. Since then the Church has gained more and more adherents and a great deal of influence.

Work, wind and water
The tenets of the Church

The Church employs a simple touchstone when it evaluates technology. Anything that requires no other energy than that provided by wind or water or muscle power (or ‘work’ as it is called to produce a pleasing alliteration) is acceptable. Anything that requires more sophisticated power sources, such as steam and electricity, is anathema.

Although there are, as mentioned above, dozens of different sects, both inside and outside the Church of Wisdom, for gaming purposes the people of Knorbes can be divided into six basic groups which for convenience can be labeled Fanatic, Orthodox, Conservative, Reformist, Agnostic, and Atheist.

A fanatic believes that any means is justified in the struggle against evil technology, even those that are contrary to the secular law. Those fanatics who act on their beliefs are called technoclasts.

An orthodox believes that the laws of the church must be followed and that anyone who fails to conform should be persuaded to change his mind.

A conservative believes that technology is dangerous and that before anything new is approved, it must be considered in great detail and all the ramifications explored. Sticking to the traditional power sources is a good way to ensure that things won't get out of hand. However, his objections are practical more than religious and he is open to being persuaded otherwise in specific cases.

A reformist believes that the church has the right idea but has gone too far in its technological restrictions. For example, while electricity may well be too dangerous, steam engines can't hurt.

An agnostic doesn't accept the divine inspiration of the Church founders and thinks that a cautious exploration of science and technology would be a good thing. About the only thing that he flat out won't countenance is biological tinkering. Anything else is fair game.

An atheist not only believes that technology is not evil in itself but also that high technology has the potential to make life so much better for everybody that all these restrictions just are causing unnecessary misery and death.​

Further developments: The most progressive nation on Knorbes at the time, the Republic of Cinnavane, began importing advanced equipment, especially weapons (though not the most advanced available, due to Scout import restrictions and lack of funds). Other small nations did the same. The Empire of Karsten responded by mobilizing the religious fervor of the technophobes and overwhelming the techno-friendly nations with sheer numbers. Since Church tenets accepted gunpowder, Karsten did have perfectly adequate guns. (I think the Church and the Emperor reached an accomodation on that point: The Church accepted gunpowder and the Emperor made it the state church).

Though the empire won over Cinnavane and its allies, it could not hope to win against the Imperium's battlesuited forces. The emperor of Karsten probably didn't want to anyway; his anti-technological stance was always more pragmatic than religious. Instead he joined the Imperium and got Duke Nobert to endorse Knorbes' anti-technology laws. The Scouts’ impromptu starport near Cinnavane became the new Imperial starport.

By 1115, the population has risen to 82 million and the technology is still restricted by law to the three accepted power sources, work, wind, and water.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Hans,

Fascinating stuff as usual and my usual 0.2 Cr:

- External combustion doesn't necessarily equate steam engines. It can apply to brewing, distilling, metallurgy, and many other processes. In fact, the term external combustion is too loose a descriptor for the ban you're talking about. You want a ban on external combustion as it applies to "heat engines" and not a ban on external combustion as it applies "processes".

- I can't come up with a better descriptor at the moment, so "external combustion" will have to do. However, you can spin the vagueness of the term to your advantage. When the Church thunders from the pulpit about external combustion, it is only talking about heat engines and the locals understand that. While the distinction is a bit of general knowledge everyone on Knorbes shares, folks from off world may not be aware of that at all.

- Even given the many "retro-tech", "high/low tech", and other devices the Hobby has discussed over the years, a city of 10 million at TL2 is too far a stretch. Knorbes can have horse-drawn railways and trolleys, canals, and "Triple-W" machinery of all types working on farms, factories, and transport routes, but feeding 10 million people in a single city is simply impossible. You'd even have trouble if you enslaved most of the rural populace.

- Because the people of Knorbes know certain things are possible, you can't go too far in "retro-fitting" technology. Another poster's suggestion of ground-to-orbit heliographs is a good example of that. The real world's historical semaphore towers and Pratchett's expansion of the same in his Discworld novels is another. (I'm sure you've read Paul Drye's excellent Primitive, Not Stupid article?)

- Finally and in reference to another conversation we're having; How did you draw that map? (I'd add more and longer rivers to it to help solve some the transportation problems Knorbes will have.)


Regards,
Bill

 

[robject]

- Even given the many "retro-tech", "high/low tech", and other devices the Hobby has discussed over the years, a city of 10 million at TL2 is too far a stretch. Knorbes can have horse-drawn railways and trolleys, canals, and "Triple-W" machinery of all types working on farms, factories, and transport routes, but feeding 10 million people in a single city is simply impossible. You'd even have trouble if you enslaved most of the rural populace.

I suppose you could redefine urbanization, so that a "city" isn't like we think. Of course, then perhaps it isn't a city, and QED your post.

 

[atpollard]

But could one plausibly have that early 1900s stuff be rarer than it was in our world?

In general answer to all of your questions, yes.

The rules that you have postulated (no electricity or steam power) will allow the technology and society to easily advance to about a 1700’s Earth equivalent across the board. It is the possibility of some machinery but not steam power that will begin to diversify what happens beyond that point. Which is exactly what you seem to be looking to achieve.

Simple (and not so simple) machines can advance right to the threshold of their modern electrical counterparts. Well into the early 20th century. This should create some interesting anachronisms without disrupting your TL 2 status. The town ‘scribe’ has a typewriter. The stage coach driver has a pocket watch. The police officer has a 9mm semi-auto pistol (SWAT has a SMG).

Transportation will be the most unique. You have the technology to build railroads and paddle boats, but no engines to operate them. That leaves horse drawn streetcars and horse on treadmill powered ferries as common transportation modes. Wind powered steel ships and water powered cable cars are possible.

Most pre-industrial societies are strongly class/caste oriented with people born into professions. I would suggest that 70% of your population might be farmers and unskilled laborers with very little access to items above TL 2. Another 20% could be merchants and skilled craftsmen with a need for access to TL 3 goods. Another 9% might be Scholars and Professionals (including doctors) with access to TL 4 goods. The remaining 1% are the ruling class with access to TL 5 goods. Access might be strictly regulated, but is more likely simply a financial barrier. If wages follow the same 5x steps as you propose for prices, then simple income will restrict access without the need for oppressive laws.

 

[CosmicGamer]

- Even given the many "retro-tech", "high/low tech", and other devices the Hobby has discussed over the years, a city of 10 million at TL2 is too far a stretch. Knorbes can have horse-drawn railways and trolleys, canals, and "Triple-W" machinery of all types working on farms, factories, and transport routes, but feeding 10 million people in a single city is simply impossible. You'd even have trouble if you enslaved most of the rural populace.

Estimates of Romes peak population range from 450,000 to over 3.5 million people at the time of emperor Augustus (63 B.C.E. to 19 C.E.)

 

[rancke]

- External combustion doesn't necessarily equate steam engines. It can apply to brewing, distilling, metallurgy, and many other processes. In fact, the term external combustion is too loose a descriptor for the ban you're talking about. You want a ban on external combustion as it applies to "heat engines" and not a ban on external combustion as it applies "processes".

The Church isn't obliged to be completely consistent. It uses the "work, wind, and water" as a rule of thumb and as a catchphrase. I think it forbade steam because railways are such a big and powerful symbol of progress. So a lot of technophobes targetted the railways, and the Church nipped ahead of the parade and pretended to lead it.

- Even given the many "retro-tech", "high/low tech", and other devices the Hobby has discussed over the years, a city of 10 million at TL2 is too far a stretch. Knorbes can have horse-drawn railways and trolleys, canals, and "Triple-W" machinery of all types working on farms, factories, and transport routes, but feeding 10 million people in a single city is simply impossible. You'd even have trouble if you enslaved most of the rural populace.

Where did that city of 10 million come from? I haven't worked out the Classic Era city populations (I plan to drag out my WBH one day and do just that), but for the 1000 writeup, I have this:

"When the war broke out in 898, Knorbes had four cities of more than 10 million inhabitants, 37 cities of between 1 and 10 million inhabitants, hundreds of cities with between 100,000 and a million inhabitants, and thousands of cities with between 5000 and 100,000 inhabitants. These were all abandoned when the plagues struck. Some of the smaller ones were later reoccupied, but most remain empty."​

I'll probably go with 10,000 as the highest urban population in 1000. After a century of peace under a central authority, I suppose that there'll be some cities in the 100,000s. The capital might even have reached a full million. But I've never even considered having a city of 10 million.

- Because the people of Knorbes know certain things are possible, you can't go too far in "retro-fitting" technology. Another poster's suggestion of ground-to-orbit heliographs is a good example of that. The real world's historical semaphore towers and Pratchett's expansion of the same in his Discworld novels is another. (I'm sure you've read Paul Drye's excellent Primitive, Not Stupid article?)

I don't understand what you're getting at. The Knorbians know all about electricity and gene manipulation. They just know for a fact that it's evil.

- Finally and in reference to another conversation we're having; How did you draw that map?

Someone I was writing to about Knorbes (much to my regret I can't remember the name (if you see this post, please get in contact with me)) sent me an isocahedral map he'd made and gave me permission to use it. I extracted the outline of the continent and imported it into Paint. Then I added the mountains and other geographical features by hand.

EDIT: The creator of the isocahedral map was Steve Schonberger.

(I'd add more and longer rivers to it to help solve some the transportation problems Knorbes will have.)

Those are just the biggest rivers. There are plenty of smaller ones that are nevertheless navigable.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

I suppose you could redefine urbanization, so that a "city" isn't like we think. Of course, then perhaps it isn't a city, and QED your post.

Robject,

Very good points. I'm usually the one who suggests we look beyond labels and here I forgot to do that very thing.

An "exurban" area dotted with "truck farms" which assist imported foodstuffs could support a large population.

Estimates of Romes peak population range from 450,000 to over 3.5 million people at the time of emperor Augustus (63 B.C.E. to 19 C.E.)

CG,

Rome depending on slave labor to a great deal, especially in the agricultural sector. Hans hasn't mentioned anything similar on Knorbes, no serfs, no churls, no slaves.

Of course labor isn't only part of the equation. Technology is why we can feed the cities we have with a tiny portion of our population involved in agriculture, transport, and processing. Also, while this "Triple-W" technology can reproduce many wonders in the transport and processing areas, I'm assuming nitrogen fixing along the lines of the Haber Process isn't something that can be tackled.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

The Church isn't obliged to be completely consistent.

Hans,

Exactly. The Church's tenets will have fractal "edges".

Where did that city of 10 million come from?

There's an icon for cities of 10 million or more in the map's legend. There's also a city of 1-9 million northwest of Osslip.

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I'm suggesting that they'll be able to recreate a good many things with their "Triple-W" technology simply because they already know such things are possible. The classic example is that TL0 "fridge" that uses two clay pots, some sand, and some water. While a TL0 society can conceivably stumble across such a device, once you understand thermodynamics, you can theorize that such a device will work and then build it.

Knorbes already knows what is possible and, as the old saying goes, that knowledge is "half the battle."

Those are just the biggest rivers. There are plenty of smaller ones that are nevertheless navigable.

Understood.

Let me direct you to think link for a suggestion regarding river cargo transport. Ships like the Gundalow were used extensively in the early US before the railroads were built up. They carried a huge amount while requiring very little crew.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

There's an icon for cities of 10 million or more in the map's legend. There's also a city of 1-9 million northwest of Osslip.

That's a map of Knorbes in the year 900. It had a TL of 11 at the time. The cities on that map are abandoned ruins, every single one of them. The three starports are non-functional too .

I'm suggesting that they'll be able to recreate a good many things with their "Triple-W" technology simply because they already know such things are possible. The classic example is that TL0 "fridge" that uses two clay pots, some sand, and some water. While a TL0 society can conceivably stumble across such a device, once you understand thermodynamics, you can theorize that such a device will work and then build it.

Knorbes already knows what is possible and, as the old saying goes, that knowledge is "half the battle."

Ah yes. And that's exactly why I'm soliciting suggestions for Knorbian "altertech". Especially for equipment that PCs might want to outfit themselves with and features they might encounter (like horsedrawn railway cars and water cable cars), but also for pure background stuff.

Let me direct you to think link for a suggestion regarding river cargo transport. Ships like the Gundalow were used extensively in the early US before the railroads were built up. They carried a huge amount while requiring very little crew.

Thank you. I'll have a look at it. I'm thinking the British canal system might provide some ideas too.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Rome depending on slave labor to a great deal, especially in the agricultural sector. Hans hasn't mentioned anything similar on Knorbes, no serfs, no churls, no slaves.

No, although if I'd read Stirling's Dies the Fire and sequels when I wrote up the setting, I might have included them. Knorbes went from a pre-war population of 380 million (898 census) to an estimated population of 63 million in 910. About 30 million died in the plagues but almost ten times as many in the aftermath. After that, it was a scramble just to survive. So society would have been pretty thoroughly smashed. OTOH, when things began to get a little better, many of the people still alive would still remember the good old days of peace and democracy. So I decided many of the small communities were strong on individual rights. Up to a point, of course. so I was thinking more Age of Enlightenment than Medieval Europe in style.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

No, although if I'd read Stirling's Dies the Fire and sequels when I wrote up the setting, I might have included them.

Hans,

I'm thinking you could play the slavery/serf/churl angle to great effect.

If your players are anything like my players, when you tell them about a theocracy that limits technology, the first they're going to think is EVIL. That knee-jerk reaction is precisely why you should throw them a curve ball instead.

It's 904 and Knorbes has just bio-bombed it's way into interstellar insignificance. For reasons I don't even want to guess at, the Imperium either couldn't and wouldn't intervene in the war before the groat manure hit the ventilation duct, again for reasons I don't even want to guess at, the Imperium doesn't bother to intervene after the war either. The IISS drops off a couple of satellites, starts monitoring the situation, and announces an interdiction. Pilot guides to the subsector get updated and the universe moves on in a greased groove.

Jump forward to a decade or so before 1000 and the latest IISS report on Knorbes begins We've got good news, bad news, and worse news...

The good news is that the geopolitical and cultural situations on Knorbes have developed to a point where there are large enough polities for the Imperium to contact and those polities are no longer xenophobic. The bad news is that the largest polity, the Empire of Karsten, is technophobic. They eschew any technologies more advanced than work, water, or wind. The really bad news is that the next largest polity, Cinnavane, and it's allies are slavers. Particularly aggressive slavers too, slavers right out of the TNE TEDs playbook.

Think about it for a moment. Although constrained by it's own theology, when compared to Cinnavane Karsten actually gains a great from the Church of Wisdom. The planet in interdicted so no one can import technology. The Church, in accordance to it's own beliefs, is actively researching, developing, and implementing Triple-W tech solutions to the empire's problems.

Cinnavane doesn't have the Church working within her borders because she doesn't eschew technology. The easiest way for Cinnavane to feed itself, build it's roads, dig it's ores, and do all the other things it's needs to do is embrace slavery.

There's a economic race between Karsten and Cinnavane here. Both are scrambling to develop in the face of huge technological deficits so they can defeat the other. Karsten is working within that deficit while Cinnavane is hoping it can keep up long enough for imports to render the deficit moot.

Given the way Knorbes "decivilized" in 904, slavery in all it's myriad forms must have been an immediate consequence. Imperial opposition to slavery is surely among the many things the post-collapse cultures of Knorbes remember, so local opposition could be one of the founding principles of the Church of Wisdom too. The Church strives to make men free from technology and other men. The drive of the Church to develop Triple-W technology is an important part of it's anti-slavery creed because technology obviates any need for slaves.

Our "evil" technophobe theocratic empire is on the side of the angels as far as the slaves of Cinnavane and elsewhere are concerned. And as far as the Imperium is concerned too.

The IISS report I previously mentioned goes on to state that they can't stop smugglers without increased assets. It would be better if a starport was set-up under tight IISS control, but only Cinnavane is receptive to that idea because she's counting on imports to win her long struggle with Karsten and the Church of Wisdom. Re-opening contact with Knorbes is one thing, helping slavers by arms is another. The IISS recommends that trade be allowed but under "cash on the barrelhead" conditions. Cinnavane isn't going to import Hammer's Slammers after selling planetary mineral rights to LSP for example. Anything they bring in will have to be purchased with cash up front.

The IISS report is rubber stamped from Mora to Sylea, the starport goes in, Cinnavane imports a few stands of ACRs with the proceeds from beer sales, and Karsten's minieball musket armed troops along with her [liberation theology eventually roll over the slaver polities like a tsunami.

When the dust settles, Knorbes is readmitted to the Imperium under the worldwide Empire of Karsten, less the southern continent of course, and the IISS begins a long term covert operation aimed at weakening the Church of Wisdom's technophobic beliefs.

Would that be enough of a curveball for your players?


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

I'm thinking you could play the slavery/serf/churl angle to great effect.

If your players are anything like my players, when you tell them about a theocracy that limits technology, the first they're going to think is EVIL. That knee-jerk reaction is precisely why you should throw them a curve ball instead.

The adventure is set in Year 1000, shortly after the interdict has been lifted and while the Scouts are still working on contacting the Knorbians. At this point, Tecnoclasts and Technodules are still duking it out and the Church is nowhere near as powerful as it becomes later. Technology has reached TL2 more or less naturally, and I don't see all that many 'altertech' inventions yet. Instead, some people are trying to lay down railway tracks by day and other people are ripping up railway tracks by night.

What I was hoping to get here were ideas for how things have evolved by 1115, a century after Karsten unified the world (continent, actually) and the Church became able to arrest inventors rather than have a mob kill them.

It's 904 and Knorbes has just bio-bombed it's way into interstellar insignificance. For reasons I don't even want to guess at, the Imperium either couldn't and wouldn't intervene in the war before the groat manure hit the ventilation duct...

Someone screwed up. The Marquis of Knorbes was presiding over peace negotiations in Hekavu City and everybody expected peace to break out any day now, when suddenly the WMDs began to fly. No one had expected either side to be stupid enough to fired their missiles.

...again for reasons I don't even want to guess at, the Imperium doesn't bother to intervene after the war either.

At first it was a quarantine. Pretty reasonable, I think, when the tailored plagues are sweeping through the population. Margaret turned that into a full interdiction in 910 as a punitive measure. The Imperium tries to discourage member worlds from letting things get that much out of hand.

Jump forward a decade or so before 1000 and the latest IISS report on Knorbes begins We've got good news, bad news, and worse news...
I'm going to have to think that one over. My knee-jerk reaction is that I don't like it, but I've had that reaction to many ideas that I embraced after getting used to them.


Hans