Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
It would either be heaven (no law or gov because none is needed, technology provides for everyones needs), or hell (total anarchy).
TL F and No Law or Government?
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daryen
SOC-14 1K
Oh, you mean ... uh ... the one in the TR?
Anyway, the biggest question before you can get an answer is what is the population? With a "lo-pop" world, it could be quite possible to have a smoothly running world with no government. It becomes much more difficult if it is "hi-pop". Also, what is the population density? A few million won't work any worse than a few thousand, as long as everyone is spread out.
If you want a world with lots of people living in reasonably densely populated urban centers, but have no government, then you must implement some sort of libertarian "dream system".
On such a world all services and "government" functions are provided by private enterprises. This does NOT result in a corporate government code (gov 1), as it is not a single coporation running the whole thing. It is many companies (whether monopolies in their areas or not) each providing a few (or maybe just one) service that most people associate with government.
Such a system may have laws (and hence a law level) or it may not. Either way, the role provided by most governmental judicial systems is handled by private arbiters and judges.
Such a system could easily handle billions of inhabitants and could be an extremely rude shock to unprepared PCs. Especially if they get to find out, first hand, what "out-law" really means.
Anyway, the biggest question before you can get an answer is what is the population? With a "lo-pop" world, it could be quite possible to have a smoothly running world with no government. It becomes much more difficult if it is "hi-pop". Also, what is the population density? A few million won't work any worse than a few thousand, as long as everyone is spread out.
If you want a world with lots of people living in reasonably densely populated urban centers, but have no government, then you must implement some sort of libertarian "dream system".
On such a world all services and "government" functions are provided by private enterprises. This does NOT result in a corporate government code (gov 1), as it is not a single coporation running the whole thing. It is many companies (whether monopolies in their areas or not) each providing a few (or maybe just one) service that most people associate with government.
Such a system may have laws (and hence a law level) or it may not. Either way, the role provided by most governmental judicial systems is handled by private arbiters and judges.
Such a system could easily handle billions of inhabitants and could be an extremely rude shock to unprepared PCs. Especially if they get to find out, first hand, what "out-law" really means.
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
This topic is opened for runimation/speculation on a TL F world that has no form of government or law level... what would this be like, in your informed opinons? If such a world cannot be, I know of one... (but am not at liberty to say, as the PCs are watching...always watching...)
Daryen said,
Solaria A967400-H
The world called Solaria has a Class 'A' starport, a size of 9 (9500 miles), an Atmosphere of 6 (Standard), Hydrographics of 7 (70% surface water), A Population of 4(20,000 people), A government type of 0 (No Government), a Law Level of 0 (No prohibitions, and a Technological Level of 17.
This planet was taken from Isaac Asimov's Novel "The Naked Sun" the reason why there is no government has to do with its tech level. At tech level 17 Artificial Intelligence robots become possible and the population of such robots on Solaria is 200,000,000 or about 10,000 for every Solarian citizen each Solarian citizen has a huge estate consisting of thousands of square miles and is served by a staff of thousands of Robots. Each robot obeys the three laws of robotics as follows:
1) No Robot may harm or through in action allow a human to be harmed.
2) A Robot must obey orders given by a human.
3) A Robot must preserve its own existance.
Most humans avoid direct contact with each other, instead they communicate vitrually using holovideo technology called viewing as opposed to seeing when someone actually visits. A world like this could exist in the OTU. The people on this planet avoid human contact and are very private so I think they would keep to themselves. They manufacture their own robots with the robots building factories and running them to produce more robots. Their power systems are based in antimatter, (This is not in the book but I'm adapting this planet to the OTU). If they Solarians receive a visitor from the Imperium for example, they would have robots build a guest house for them and then tear it down once they leave. The planet is terraformed and its main export, should it care to export anything is AI robots, these robots are very expensive to outsides as their are very few TL 17 planets around so they enjoy a relative monopoly on this technology, but they really don't need to trade anything as the robots on the planet produce everything they need or want. Their population is in decline, humans don't often get together for mating purposes and the raising of children is considered unpleasant as it requires human contact. As the population is in decline outsiders are welcome whenever they care to visit. Solaria tries to keep its population at around 20,000 so estates are available whenever an owner dies. Each estate comew with about 10,000 AI robots. I think the Imperium might want to draw a red circle around this planet however.
Here is an example taken from Literature:
Solaria A967400-H
The world called Solaria has a Class 'A' starport, a size of 9 (9500 miles), an Atmosphere of 6 (Standard), Hydrographics of 7 (70% surface water), A Population of 4(20,000 people), A government type of 0 (No Government), a Law Level of 0 (No prohibitions, and a Technological Level of 17.
This planet was taken from Isaac Asimov's Novel "The Naked Sun" the reason why there is no government has to do with its tech level. At tech level 17 Artificial Intelligence robots become possible and the population of such robots on Solaria is 200,000,000 or about 10,000 for every Solarian citizen each Solarian citizen has a huge estate consisting of thousands of square miles and is served by a staff of thousands of Robots. Each robot obeys the three laws of robotics as follows:
1) No Robot may harm or through in action allow a human to be harmed.
2) A Robot must obey orders given by a human.
3) A Robot must preserve its own existance.
Most humans avoid direct contact with each other, instead they communicate vitrually using holovideo technology called viewing as opposed to seeing when someone actually visits. A world like this could exist in the OTU. The people on this planet avoid human contact and are very private so I think they would keep to themselves. They manufacture their own robots with the robots building factories and running them to produce more robots. Their power systems are based in antimatter, (This is not in the book but I'm adapting this planet to the OTU). If they Solarians receive a visitor from the Imperium for example, they would have robots build a guest house for them and then tear it down once they leave. The planet is terraformed and its main export, should it care to export anything is AI robots, these robots are very expensive to outsides as their are very few TL 17 planets around so they enjoy a relative monopoly on this technology, but they really don't need to trade anything as the robots on the planet produce everything they need or want. Their population is in decline, humans don't often get together for mating purposes and the raising of children is considered unpleasant as it requires human contact. As the population is in decline outsiders are welcome whenever they care to visit. Solaria tries to keep its population at around 20,000 so estates are available whenever an owner dies. Each estate comew with about 10,000 AI robots. I think the Imperium might want to draw a red circle around this planet however.
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
Great book, that one, and a great take on this... with further research, It would seem that this world in question does indeed have a very low population, as do the OTHERS. In fact, All of the higer tech systems seem to share this situation there are several TL E worlds that have 00 in that regard... perhaps the enclaves of reclusive technocrats? Bred/Geneered "families" of inventors?
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Agricultural worlds would work well* - vast farms owned by individual families, with robots doing most of the work.
*Try saying that after a few pints...
*Try saying that after a few pints...
At Tech Level 15, its also possible to have low pop Worlds, the robots are dumber and more specialized though, a government of some sort is required. In the case of Solaria, the robots themselves act as a government, simply because of the first law:
No Robot may harm or through in action allow a human to be harmed.
Because of this a robot will try to stop one human from harming another. Also the robots will try to discourage personal contact between humans since if humans are far apart, they can't harm each other and so won't invoke the first law. Robots have a number of means at their disposal to accomplish this. For one if a human requires companionship, the robots will provide this and robots can appear human, thus substituing for the human companionship humans would otherwise crave. If a human really wants to visit another human, the robots can't prevent this because of the second law:
A Robot must obey orders given by a human.
But if a human wants to harm another human, the first law takes precidence and the robots will try to stop him, the robot may end up harming the human they attempt to stop from harming another, but the robot reasons that it is following the path of less harm to humans, even so, that robot will suffer self inflicted damage from its three laws programming, it loses 1000 to 6000 XP (in the T20 game), or 1d6 skill points determined randomly (in the CT game), in some cases this results in the AI Robot character losing a character level treat as if it were a energy level drain of the sort inflicted by a vampire or some other energy draining creature as in D&D. Contact with the virus also does this sort of damage if it invades the robots positronic brain. Solaria would have weathered the Virus just fine as it would have destroyed robots rather than spreading itself through them.
No Robot may harm or through in action allow a human to be harmed.
Because of this a robot will try to stop one human from harming another. Also the robots will try to discourage personal contact between humans since if humans are far apart, they can't harm each other and so won't invoke the first law. Robots have a number of means at their disposal to accomplish this. For one if a human requires companionship, the robots will provide this and robots can appear human, thus substituing for the human companionship humans would otherwise crave. If a human really wants to visit another human, the robots can't prevent this because of the second law:
A Robot must obey orders given by a human.
But if a human wants to harm another human, the first law takes precidence and the robots will try to stop him, the robot may end up harming the human they attempt to stop from harming another, but the robot reasons that it is following the path of less harm to humans, even so, that robot will suffer self inflicted damage from its three laws programming, it loses 1000 to 6000 XP (in the T20 game), or 1d6 skill points determined randomly (in the CT game), in some cases this results in the AI Robot character losing a character level treat as if it were a energy level drain of the sort inflicted by a vampire or some other energy draining creature as in D&D. Contact with the virus also does this sort of damage if it invades the robots positronic brain. Solaria would have weathered the Virus just fine as it would have destroyed robots rather than spreading itself through them.
You can never have "no government" because human nature doen't work that way. There is always someone that wants to prey on others; he has to be suppressed if society is to function. Or the predator will make himself ruler(and I know some cynic is going to mention this; yes there is often little choice between the options mentioned above)Even if the anarchist dream comes about and all government is eliminated that only means the strongest power in the area will make itself ruler by default.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
Not necessarily.
Suppose you have a small planet with millions of people. Suppose they have no government as such, and all governmental functions are provided by private companies.
There are no courts, as there are private arbiters. There are no police, as there are private protection companies. There is no highway department, as the various pieces of the infrastructure are maintained and managed by separate companies. There are no laws as such, as things are handled by contractual relationships.
Could such a system work in "the real world"? Who knows. I'll let the statists and the libertarians hash that out.
But, in fiction, especially in science fiction, it is very possible for such a system to exist and work. It is not a "1" government type because there are a multitude of companies involved, not just one running the show. It is very much a "0" type of government.
So it is quite possible to have "no government", as a government is not the only way to handle those types of concerns. It is just the way we are used to.
Suppose you have a small planet with millions of people. Suppose they have no government as such, and all governmental functions are provided by private companies.
There are no courts, as there are private arbiters. There are no police, as there are private protection companies. There is no highway department, as the various pieces of the infrastructure are maintained and managed by separate companies. There are no laws as such, as things are handled by contractual relationships.
Could such a system work in "the real world"? Who knows. I'll let the statists and the libertarians hash that out.
But, in fiction, especially in science fiction, it is very possible for such a system to exist and work. It is not a "1" government type because there are a multitude of companies involved, not just one running the show. It is very much a "0" type of government.
So it is quite possible to have "no government", as a government is not the only way to handle those types of concerns. It is just the way we are used to.
No government is a bit understated. Might be closer to pure communism or a simple participatory democracy. I assume the starport is a relic maintained by the robots. Reproduction should become in-lab based? A world of 20,000 loners. Betcha they'd start hating AI robots too.
They like visitors but they're loners...strange.
Savage
They like visitors but they're loners...strange.
Savage
Suppose you have a small planet with millions of people. Suppose they have no government as such, and all governmental functions are provided by private companies
Then wouldn't those companies be the government?
Such wouldn't be impossible. The East India Company did just that. In Oregon Chief Factor for the Hudson's Bay Company, Dr. Mcloughlin was essentialy "Duke of Oregon"(he did a good job too). In both cases there was a power vacuum and the strongest moved in.
Then wouldn't those companies be the government?
Such wouldn't be impossible. The East India Company did just that. In Oregon Chief Factor for the Hudson's Bay Company, Dr. Mcloughlin was essentialy "Duke of Oregon"(he did a good job too). In both cases there was a power vacuum and the strongest moved in.
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