TL class bondage

[Fritz_Brown]

OK, since others have mentioned Foundation and I am in the middle of re-reading the first of Asimov's best work (finishing Part III), I have a question to pose:

Assuming a TL12 "Foundation", what TL would be requisite for an Anacreon. Let me 'splain.
1) One society has slid backward and is losing the capability to sustain its tech (about TL9?). (Anacreon)
2) Another society has the tech know-how (TL12) and no military capability. (Foundation)
3) The "Foundation" offers its tech to "Anacreon", but treats it as a religion.
4) In this religion, the priests (from "Foundation") retain the actual tech knowledge, with the locals knowing how to push buttons, string wires, etc.
5) Truly bright folks from "Anacreon" are removed and taken to "Foundation" to enter the priesthood. (Returned? I don't know.)
6) The "Anacreon"s maintain a space navy using this advanced technology. (They also maintain a hi-TL army locally.)

So, what TL would "Anacreon" have to be to maintain the charade, yet also be able to actually operate the tech?

 

[atpollard]

Problems would arrise above TL 3. At TL 4 and above, the scientific mindset required to sustain the technology would make blind adherance to any outside "religion" difficult. Once the population as a whole becomes familiar with the concept of technology, keeping it secret will become difficult. It only requires one "priest" who sees this system as imoral exploitation to share the knowledge and spark a revolution that ended the Foundation.

If starfaring people landed on Earth today with TL 15 technology, would you think that they are a holy priesthood and deserve your complete loyalty.

A bigger question is how does the Foundation alter basic human nature. If power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely - what prevents the entire system from degenerating into the base slavery.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

atpollard, for that you will have to read the books....
Seriously, I don't think the situation lasts for more than a few generations, but it lasts long enough to help the Foundation survive. (Anacreon was gonna blast them into servitude previously.)

 

[sgbrown]

Assuming that it only has to last a generation or so - and that education was grinding to a stand still due to internal corruption anyway - I figure the TL can be anywhere from 0 up to a declining 9 (Level at time of foundation contact.)

This relies on the following:
1) The Foundation having sufficient resources to provide the only source of high tech knowledge for the Anacreon officials with enough tech level advantage to keep control.
2) The Foundation can remove the Anacreon's with the ability to pirate the knowledge with a high efficiency rate (enough to protect the monopoly.)
3) The existing Anacreon power structure is corrupt enough to go along.
4) The Foundation is able to keep the corrupt government from double crossing them (weakest link in my opinion.)

It doesn't rely on the people buying into the false religion - it only relies on maintaining a monopoly on the knowledge and having the power brokers go along. Personally, I think a guild set up is less problematic from 2 stand points - 1) it is morally more defendable, and 2) it has fewer chances of developing idealistic opposition. But Asimov (the author) didn't choose to go this route.

Bottom line - it doesn't take that big a TL difference to run a shell game - in this case just gullible despots.

 

[veltyen]

If starfaring people landed on Earth today with TL 15 technology, would you think that they are a holy priesthood and deserve your complete loyalty.

If they vaporised anyone who didn't go along, used mechanical mind readers to test the loyalty of the survivors, then yes, but only if I chose the survival path.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by veltyen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If starfaring people landed on Earth today with TL 15 technology, would you think that they are a holy priesthood and deserve your complete loyalty.

If they vaporised anyone who didn't go along, used mechanical mind readers to test the loyalty of the survivors, then yes, but only if I chose the survival path. </font>[/QUOTE]The US won virtually every battle in Vietnam, we bombed most of the large mammal species of that country into extinction, and we withdrew in haste. It would be easy for a TL 15 culture to eradicate all life on Earth. It would be very hard to brutalize it into "loyalty".

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Thank you SGB. That's why I was asking - it seems a little far-fetched to see that occur over a long period. The Foundation only used that gimmick for a hundred years or so, IIRC.

But, I saw some interesting things when working on my Excel subsector generation file. When I got binary systems, I had to run the generation on another worksheet (without benefit of limiting information from the primary), and sometimes there were wild disparities in TL. Thought it might be interesting to try something like that in one of those systems.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Problems would arrise above TL 3. At TL 4 and above, the scientific mindset required to sustain the technology would make blind adherance to any outside "religion" difficult.

AT,

You'd think so, but as a fellow who has been to more 3rd World countries than you've had hot breakfasts I can flatly state that the situation is not as cut and dried as you would believe.

Technological assets in a majority of the regions across our world are operated and maintained by people with little more than a 'cargo cult' level of understanding. They know that if you do A, B, and C, X and Y will occur. Their understanding reaches no deeper than that. They believe that going through the motions is all it takes, just like those New Guinea highlanders who believe that using a 'radio' built of cocoanuts will produce the same results as using a radio built out of vacuum tubes.

Tech reps, ex-pats, and guest workers provide all the real know-how and they're spread pretty thin. 'Sailor-proofing' designs helps too, but it can only go so far. Eventually, this lack of understanding, this failure to grok what Rickover called the 'discipline of technology', causes major problems; i.e. Bhopal.

It only requires one "priest" who sees this system as imoral exploitation to share the knowledge and spark a revolution that ended the Foundation.

Terminus only used this tactic for less than a century and suffered a blow-back of sorts when idiots on their own world began believing the nonsense originally derived to keep the 'barbarians' in line. You also forget that 'barbarian' priests were carefully screened and monitored, any that showed an inkling of the actual state of affairs never left Terminus.

Exploitive or not, curing all cancers can lead to a powerful hold on a credulous populace. Even merely promising to cure diseases while actually having a very low 'batting average' will work. Look at Lourdes.

If starfaring people landed on Earth today with TL 15 technology, would you think that they are a holy priesthood and deserve your complete loyalty.

Right now in 2007 I can take you to Irian and introduce you to people who firmly believe part of your being is magical because of the technology you use. You can show them how everything works too, open the boxes, show them the man behind the curtain, and they'll still believe that you are partially magic

A bigger question is how does the Foundation alter basic human nature. If power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely - what prevents the entire system from degenerating into the base slavery.

But the Foundation system does slide into tyranny and corruption. What do you think the hereditary mayors like Ibran III and the revolt of the free traders(1) was all about?

Read those books again.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - Which was stillborn thanks to tthe arrival of the Mule. Remember the scene in Seldon's vault? Foundation is losing to the Mule and Hari appears only to talk about the revolt of the free traders?

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:

Technological assets in a majority of the regions across our world are operated and maintained by people with little more than a 'cargo cult' level of understanding. They know that if you do A, B, and C, X and Y will occur. Their understanding reaches no deeper than that.

Just wanted to chime in here on this observation. This description of technology use isn't limited to third world countries, but also to first world countries as well.

For example, many people own television sets. They know how to change the channel and can ensure that they are on the right channel at the right time to watch the show they want. Yet how many people can explain how the picture tube works or how the TV signal gets transmitted and converted into video to watch when compared to the number of people who merely know how to operate a TV. Better yet, use an electric lamp as an example and ask people why the light bulb emits light when you turn the switch "on" - I bet you'll get some entertaining answers (some may even be right!). This ability to operate a technological device without understanding its internal workings is common to many people in developed countries on everything from automobiles to electricity. So don't exclude the high tech worlds from this commonality.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Ahhh, this is the kind of discussion I was looking for!

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
1 - Which was stillborn thanks to tthe arrival of the Mule. Remember the scene in Seldon's vault? Foundation is losing to the Mule and Hari appears only to talk about the revolt of the free traders?

Heh, I'm just getting to that part. Don't spoil anything for me, huh? It's been many moons since I read it.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atpollard:
Problems would arrise above TL 3. At TL 4 and above, the scientific mindset required to sustain the technology would make blind adherance to any outside "religion" difficult.

AT,

You'd think so, but as a fellow who has been to more 3rd World countries than you've had hot breakfasts I can flatly state that the situation is not as cut and dried as you would believe. .</font>[/QUOTE]I do not disagree, but as a small point, TL 3 is characterized by steam power and TL 1 is characterized by muscle power as the dominant factor in peoples lives. Those 3rd World people who plow fields with oxen are probably closer to a TL 1 culture than a TL 3 culture. That was why I drew the line at TL 3/4, once you can MAKE machines and understand how they work you can recognize incomprehensible technology as a technology.

Read those books again.

It may be blasphemy among this crowd, but I only read part of the Foundation. I didn't like it (but I did like I, Robot so I am not anti Asimov). So I'll just take your word for it.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I think SGB has a point, though, about the scientific mindset. It would require a decadent culture (as the Empire is in the book), and a real effort to cut out of the herd those with any glimmer of that "mindset". Otherwise, you lose your monopoly.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

BTW, I mean decadent in a non-judgemental fashion - not morally decadent, just decaying.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

atpollard, how many folks in our society can actually make those machines, though? Or, more importantly, fix them? Everything is "black box" nowadays.

However, as you said (and I mentioned just above), we wouldn't necessarily take those TL15 aliens to be gods, as we haven't slid quite that far ... yet.

 

[sgbrown]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
BTW, I mean decadent in a non-judgemental fashion - not morally decadent, just decaying.

Actually, to buy into the false religion the moral decadence of a type is what's necessary.

 

[aramis]

Another example from the modern era:

Your VCR breaks down.

You can:
1) try to take it apart and fix it.
2) Try to find someone who is capable and willing to fix it for you
3) try to find a replacement
4) give up, and rebuy your collection on DVD, and hire the wizard to do his mumbo-jumbo on the tapes you can't repurchase.

It's getting to the point where 1 & 4 are the only viable options, and most people don't have the skill nor patience to try #1. (I repaired a VCR several times. But once the magic blue smoke left the circuitry, well, I don't have a functioning VCR anymore.)

And that's FORWARD progress on technology.

Now, given a TL4 culture, they are likely to be able to fix the mechanical issues if it's just gummed up. But, if it's an electrical issue, it's no longer surgery, but diagnostics that are needed. Any klahd can do surgery. Few can do the diagnostics (pre, mid, or post) to know if they did it right.

Oh, and as to black box... we seem to be approaching the first stages of Werner Vinge's Singularity... the point where the average person uses technology as if it were magic.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Oh man, you can't let out the smoke! Once the smoke gets out, it doesn't work anymore!

 

[sgbrown]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Oh man, you can't let out the smoke! Once the smoke gets out, it doesn't work anymore!

Now try and put the smoke back in.

And pay no attention to the guy behind the curtain - the guy replacing the smoked chip who also has a monopoly on:
1) chip manufacturing
2) the diagnostic equipment to know which chip to replace, and
3) the training of people on how to replace chips without frying the motherboard.

 

[Enoff]

[Qoute]we seem to be approaching the first stages of Werner Vinge's Singularity... the point where the average person uses technology as if it were magic.[/Quote]

I am fast approaching this stage myself