TL 3 Army Skills

[rancke]

In a TL3 army, what Traveller skills do the soldiers have a chance of learning? (Assume no off-world imports).

There is

Admin
Archaic Weapons (i.e. missile weapons)
Blade Combat (melee weapons)
Brawling
Bribery
Carousing
Equestrian (Assuming a suitable riding animal on the world)
Instruction
Interrogation
Leader
Medical
Recon
Recruiting
Stealth
Survival

Anything that doesn't belong on the list? Anything missing?

What skills not covered by an existing Traveller skill might be appropriate? One that i'm thinking about is Teamster, the ability to drive wagons.


Hans

 

[Jame]

If you don't mind importing skills from MGT, I would suggest the Seafarer, Animals (riding, veterinarian and farm animals, with Teamster being used for wagons and chariots plus whatever TL3 can construct) and Trade cascades, with the Trade cascade being things like fletcher, blacksmith and cook. And a question on the Archaic weapons: is it just bows and crossbows, or is it also hand cannons and very primitive muskets?

One other question: is your TL3 the Traveller TL3, where it's the period of the Renaissance, or is it the GURPS TL 3, where it's the medieval period?

 

[Whipsnade]

Hans,

Isn't there a Combat Engineering skill in LBB:4 Mercenary? And how about adding Mechanical? I'm thinking of the legions building roads, forts, walls, harbors, aqueducts, felling trees, making iron, etc. etc. The legions handled all sorts of chores internally and produced many of the supplies we'd assume would be purchased. You can make a historically valid argument for there being butchers, bakers, and candlestick makers in your TL3 army.

I'd definitely add Streetwise and the various Vice skills too. Soldiers routinely serve in "troubled" areas and easily develop the skills necessary to deal with the people living there and acquire the various "recreational resources" they might need.

Perhaps Linguistics? Recruits coming from various provinces may not grow up speaking the ruling culture's language. Learning the army's "mother tongue" would be among their first duties, just as it is in the French Foreign Legion today.

The MT skills list would provide a few more options, but I don't know how far afield you want to go or how specialized you want to get.


Regards,
Bill

 

[aramis]

legionary works are better under Civil Engineering (MGT Trade-C.Engr.) than Mechanical.

TL 3 armies can field arquebus and other smoothbore musketry.

 

[samuelvss]

I agree with almost everything posted. I would add a foraging, which would be the acquisition and use of essentially unpalletable foodstuffs for survival. Not the same as wilderness survival, and not as generally useful.

TL 3 armies can field arquebus and other smoothbore musketry.

An arquebus is a matchlock, TL2 in CT, always smoothbore. :nonono:

TL 3 is the flintlock, which could be rifled or not; early TL 3 armies thus were armed with the (unrifled) muskets with socket bayonets for the rank and file, while a few snipers / skirmishers / irregulars would have "rifles," or rifled matchlocks. In 1860, the Minie ball was invented, which had become commonplace by the civil war, aruably the dawning of TL4. The metalic cartridge (rerequisite for revolvers and shotgun close to how these are defined by CT) was available, but not widespread.

Thus at TL 3.5, or so, the standard was "rifled muskets," a bastardized term that originated with the practice of riflling existing smoothbores for the minie ball. The originally manufactured rifled musket, with a "cap lock" and firing a mine ball proliferated towards the end of TL3, but before the proper centerfire metallic/semi-metalic cartidges in revolvers and shotguns which would mark the beginning of TL4.

Thus, since any professional officer in a Napoleonic-era army (and arguably the professional armies of the latter 18th century) who did not know what a "rifle" was would have been laughed out of the mess, I would state that a TL3 soldier may well have been familiar with the "rifles" of the day, rifled flintlocks, serving as either rifled muskets or as "rifles."

Since the ballistics of these required different skills than smoothbores (i.e.: marksmanship), which is 90% of the difficulty of expertly firing a rifle (been, there, done that..), then I would say that a TL3 soldier could get "flintlock," which should function as "rifle" of one skill level less on a throw of 7+. In the alternative, the skill could either be designated as "smoothbore musket" or "rifled musket."

The real issue is whether the army is TL3 or TL3.5. Though canon makes no distinction, the reality on the ground was night and day for infantry small arms.

 

[Ranger]

I really don't think medical belongs in there at TL3. Doctors were very rare and no "field medics" (as we think of them today) in the ranks.

Also, marksmanship was not a skill that was cultivated in the ranks of European armies at that time, as units fired in mass. In fact, the fire commands for the British Army during this period were "Ready, Level, Fire" indicating that there was no exspectation for the soldier to actually pick a target in the opposing unit. Only soldiers in actual Rifle units were trained to pick specific targets when they fired. So, if someone had a marksmanship skill, it would probably be from hunting prior to entry into the Army.

Just my thoughts.

 

[samuelvss]

I really don't think medical belongs in there at TL3. Doctors were very rare and no "field medics" (as we think of them today) in the ranks..

Great catch. The medical methods even at the apex of field surgery were not worthy of the term.

Also, marksmanship was not a skill that was cultivated in the ranks of European armies at that time, as units fired in mass. In fact, the fire commands for the British Army during this period were "Ready, Level, Fire" indicating that there was no exspectation for the soldier to actually pick a target in the opposing unit. Only soldiers in actual Rifle units were trained to pick specific targets when they fired. So, if someone had a marksmanship skill, it would probably be from hunting prior to entry into the Army.

The key here is "what time?" The minie ball, and prolireration of rifled muskets in the letter half of TL3 made marksmanship more useful, and begining to be taught, or learned the hard way by the rank and file during the Civil War, the last TL3 war, dwarfing any European military experience during TL3 after Bonaparte's death.

 

[spank]

other skills

I would add;
Gambling
Hunting
Steward
Tactics

and Probably;
Forward observer ?? comunication would be the problem here.
Liason
Mechanical
Streetwise

And Possibly;
Trader


I would probably modify Medical to Medical (archaic) and Field artillery to Field Artillery(archaic)

 

[spank]

For some reason reminds me of this;

http://dirk.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/dsc01828.jpg

 

[Whipsnade]

I really don't think medical belongs in there at TL3. Doctors were very rare and no "field medics" (as we think of them today) in the ranks.

Ranger,

That depends on what Han is going for. Because he mentions no-world contact, it could be implied that he's working on a TL3 world in a TL15 Imperium. In that case, "advanced" medical ideas like cleanliness and the like could very well common.

TL3 equating near total medical ignorance is also an post-dark ages European conceit. Romes legions marched with doctors as did the armies raised by the various polities in China, India, Islam, and many other cultures. While they may not have had all the pharmaceuticals available to a doctor in 1900, their practice weren't that different from those of doctors during the mid-1800s.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

If you don't mind importing skills from MGT, I would suggest the Seafarer, Animals (riding, veterinarian and farm animals, with Teamster being used for wagons and chariots plus whatever TL3 can construct) and Trade cascades, with the Trade cascade being things like fletcher, blacksmith and cook.

Unfortunately, I don't have MGT, so I don't know what skills are included in those cascades.

And a question on the Archaic weapons: is it just bows and crossbows, or is it also hand cannons and very primitive muskets?

It's a cascade from MT consisting of Blowgun, Bola, Boomerang, Bow, Crossbow, and Sling. don't ask me why they named it that. Because 'Missile' might be construed to include gonpowder weapons? But 'Archaic Weapons' could be construed as including archaic non-missile weapons too, couldn't it?

One other question: is your TL3 the Traveller TL3, where it's the period of the Renaissance, or is it the GURPS TL 3, where it's the medieval period?

I was thinking of pre-gunpowder. Or possibly 'Renaissance without gunpowder'. But I confess that I did get Traveller tech levels and GT tech levels mixed up. Traveller tech levels are strangely broad down in the low end.


Hans

 

[rancke]

legionary works are better under Civil Engineering (MGT Trade-C.Engr.) than Mechanical.

The skill I'd want to include, the name I'm not so thrilled with.

TL 3 armies can field arquebus and other smoothbore musketry.

Yes. My mistake. I meant pre-gunpowder. TTL2/GTL3.


Hans

 

[rancke]

The key here is "what time?"

Any time on any world where technology is limited (for whatever reason) to pre-gunpowder weapons. This means that pure knowledge (Like the germ theory, general staffs, and semaphore[*]) may be present even if it wasn't in Europe at the time that corresponds to TTL2/GTL3.


[*] I'm thinking about a 'Signals' skill.


Hans

 

[rancke]

For some reason reminds me of this;

http://dirk.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/dsc01828.jpg

Hans

 

[spank]

Ranger,



TL3 equating near total medical ignorance is also an post-dark ages European conceit. Romes legions marched with doctors as did the armies raised by the various polities in China, India, Islam, and many other cultures. While they may not have had all the pharmaceuticals available to a doctor in 1900, their practice weren't that different from those of doctors during the mid-1800s.


Regards,
Bill

I couldn't agree more, with the medical as well as the riflery. I've often said it is important to rember that when using Earth, or Eurocentric History it is important to seperate cultural notions from TL.

By way of example, I read an article about the the founding of the NRA, and one of the things it discusses was the competing threories of accurate fire vs. mass fire. While there may have been sharpshooters in some European armies, the pervailing belief was that the "common man" was not capable of the discipline required, part of the article even detailed a proposal (circa 1870?) to remove sights from infantry weapons and replace them with a device that would only allow the rifle to be fired when elevated to the correct inclination. This was to stop the "common man" from wasting ammo.

This contrasted with the tradition of the rifleman more commmonly found in the new world. The differences here being largely cultural.

 

[Madarin Dude]

For some reason reminds me of this;

http://dirk.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/dsc01828.jpg

Pure gold they need to make it just for grins.

 

[aramis]

Semaphore towers are 1600's, but signal towers using fire signals date back to babylonia...

Doctors are likely; the TL2-3 medical skill is likely less effective (increase difficulties by 1, perhaps?), but very present. The TL3.5 US Civil War saw doctors as regimental assets. The British surgeons were a brigade or division asset, but were also present.

 

[Ranger]

I think people are missing the point I was trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to make about medical skill at TL3. I wasn't arguing that there were no doctors in pre-modern armies, but that they were very rare. Also, that there was no supporting medial infrastructure in ancient armies to support the doctors as there is today.

Lets take Medic skill and break it down a little in modern terms, then see what applies to TL3.

Medic 1 - I'd put this at the Combat Lifesaver/Field Medic level of medical training. This is an individual that is trained to stabalize a critical injury with basic lifesaving techniques so the wounded do not die on the battlefield, but can survive long enough to make it back to the field hospital.

Medic 2 - I'd put this at the Paramedic/PA/Certified Nurse level of training. More advanced than a basic lifesaver and able to do some minor surgery if absolutely nessessary.

Medic 3 - A full up Doctor.

Translate that to TL3. You have not combat lifesavers or field medics. You may have some trained nurses, and you have some doctors, but not nearly as many per foot soldier as you have today. Actually, given the leaps in knowledge and techniques that have taken place in just the last 150 years, I would say your doctor is actually at Medic 2 in a TL2 to TL4 world.

So, my point is, that without the medial infrastructure you start getting at TL5, your average foot soldier just doesn't have the chance to learn the combat lifesaver type skills they would pick up in a more modern army.

Also, even if this TL3 world is in contact with a much higher TL, I don't see the local powers that be spending their wealth on training medics, but on trying to get their hands on better weapons. AK-47s (or their future counterpart) will be much higher on the priority list for those supplying the army than anti-biotics and pain killers.

Just my take.

 

[rancke]

I think people are missing the point I was trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to make about medical skill at TL3. I wasn't arguing that there were no doctors in pre-modern armies, but that they were very rare. Also, that there was no supporting medial infrastructure in ancient armies to support the doctors as there is today.

And you're missing the point that we're not talking about historical TTL2 armies of Old Earth. We're talking about TTL2 armies of a future where things may be quite different from the way things were on Earth. Take surgery, for instance. Prior to TTL4, piercing the abdominal cavity resulted in gangrene and death almost every time. Only, it wasn't really prior to TTL4, it was prior to the discovery of germs... which, admittedly, was an extremely unlikely discovery for anyone to make before the invention of the microscope. But it's a perfectly easy theory to remember when your society is regressing technologically. The tenet "Boil the instruments!" require no TL4 implements to promulgate, just word of mouth. So the discovery TL of surgery is probably 4, but the application TL is only 1.

Translate that to TL3. You have not combat lifesavers or field medics. You may have some trained nurses, and you have some doctors, but not nearly as many per foot soldier as you have today. Actually, given the leaps in knowledge and techniques that have taken place in just the last 150 years, I would say your doctor is actually at Medic 2 in a TL2 to TL4 world.

But that knowledge and at least some of those techniques are not tied to the TL at which they were discovered/developed. (Some techniques, of course, do require high-tech implements).

So, my point is, that without the medical infrastructure you start getting at TL5, your average foot soldier just doesn't have the chance to learn the combat lifesaver type skills they would pick up in a more modern army.

Is there any reason why such medical infrastructure could not be applied at TTL2? I mean, you can't build a steam engine until your metallurgical skills are sufficiently advanced, but human organization is less dependent on technology.

Also, even if this TL3 world is in contact with a much higher TL, I don't see the local powers that be spending their wealth on training medics, but on trying to get their hands on better weapons. AK-47s (or their future counterpart) will be much higher on the priority list for those supplying the army than anti-biotics and pain killers.

I dare say you're right, but that's not necessarily the choice. Offworld firearms costs foreign currency, which you can only get if you produce stuff the offworlders wants, but training just costs local money.


Hans

 

[aramis]

I think people are missing the point I was trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to make about medical skill at TL3. I wasn't arguing that there were no doctors in pre-modern armies, but that they were very rare. Also, that there was no supporting medial infrastructure in ancient armies to support the doctors as there is today.
[snip]
Just my take.

and your take simply isn't supported by the historical evidence. The US Army had a surgeon per 200 men as a normative mode since 1840. The UK 3 per 1000 men. Corpsmen were part of the company structure since about 1840 in the US Army, and nurses, while not overly common, were present.

The thing is that the average surgeon of the day would probably be medic 1-2, and herbalist 1, rather than medic 3. The Corpsmen made medical 1 after a few years, rather than at start; many corpsmen went into nursing after the civil war, and a few went into practice as surgeons. (universal medical licensing in the US was 1880 or so. NY was 1820 or so.)

Given the fact that TL 3 is when the theory of infection was firmly advanced, and that many of the troops and doctors in the US CW were not fully up to TL3, let along the NE's 3.5, a lot of guys died who didn't need to. But also consider that there were a huge number of surviving amputees, far more than in prior wars.

A TL3 nation colonized originally by TL9+ civs will most likely have a theory of infection, and have FAR more survivable medical situations, plus will likely have les risk of infection simply due to biological incompatibility. Surgeons thus become more useful.