Time Traveller
- Thread starter TKalbfus
- Start date
I posted in a similar topic about alternatives to misjumps.
Basically, if a misjump propels a vessel 3.24 - 116.24 light years distance in a random direction why not in time? forward or backward?
imagine, the pc's are early new era, (virus age) and fleeing the virus that is devastating the star system, in desparation, they jump...to BEFORE the virus hits (same system )...they know whats coming, where, when but this pre-virus system has no record of their vessel or id's.....
or...
they pc's jump to just before stephens assasination, they (the pc;s) know where, when and how...but again, no one of that time has records of the ship, or them !!!
either case, do they get involved? how much? what about the paradox of saving stephen? could they delay the virus in that system long enough to mount a defense?
Basically, if a misjump propels a vessel 3.24 - 116.24 light years distance in a random direction why not in time? forward or backward?
imagine, the pc's are early new era, (virus age) and fleeing the virus that is devastating the star system, in desparation, they jump...to BEFORE the virus hits (same system )...they know whats coming, where, when but this pre-virus system has no record of their vessel or id's.....
or...
they pc's jump to just before stephens assasination, they (the pc;s) know where, when and how...but again, no one of that time has records of the ship, or them !!!
either case, do they get involved? how much? what about the paradox of saving stephen? could they delay the virus in that system long enough to mount a defense?
In book 6 Scouts they wrote up the expanded UWP for all the planets and major moons of the Terra system. It says Luna F20076C F has both a Research Lab and a Naval base. That might still be around in the New Era, and who knows what research might have been conducted there, it might be on Time Travel. A scout ship would make an excellent time machine, it might be equipped with a time jump drive. It would work just like a regular jump drive, The scout ship would have move further away than 100 planetary diameters in order to safely jump and would require a certain amount of Jump fuel. When the Jump Drive is activated the ship would enter jump space for about a week of apparent time, but when they reenter normal space they'll still be at least 100 planetary diameters or further from the planet they left but at an earlier time. The Era of Classic Traveller 1106 is 5627 AD in our dating system. The New Era 1200 would thus be 5721 AD. With the technology established we would need rules for time travel. The various tech levels are associated with time periods According to the T20 Traveller handbook they are 0: Stone Age, 1: Bronze Age, Iron Age to Early Middle Ages; 2: 1400 to 1700, 3: 1700 to 1860, 4: 1860 to 1900; 5: 1900 to 1940; 6: 1940 to 1970; 7: 1970 to 1990; 8: 1990 to 2100; 9: 2100 to 2200; (continuing the progression)10: 2200 to 2300; 11: 2300 to 2400; 12: 2400 to 2500; 13 2500 to 2600; 14: 2600 to 2700 15: 2700 to 2742 (Collapse of Rule of Man); 14: 2742 to 2800; 13: 2800 to 2850; 12: 2850 to 2900; 11: 2900 to 2950; 10: 2950 to 2992 (Interstellar Trade ceases; Long Night begins); 9: 2992 to 3050 (Terra); 8: 3050 to 3100 (Terra); 7: 3100 to 3400 (Terra); 8: 3400 to 3500 (Terra); 9: 3500 to 3600 (Terra); 10: 3600 to 3700 (Terra rediscovers the Jump Drive, Interstellar trade reestablished in Solomani Rim Area); 11: 3700 to 3800; 12: 3800 to 4000; 13: 4000 to 4600 (Third Imperium Established) 14: 4600 to 5520 (Terra conquered by Third Imperium); 15: 5520 to 5630 (Fifth Frontier War); 16: 5630 to 5648 (Time Travel Research begins at Luna, Emperor assasinated, Final War begins, AI Virus Released); 5: 5648 to 5688; 6: 5688 to 5700; 7: 5700 to 5710 (Terra launches Manned lunar mission, Astronauts discover Imperial research station on Moon's surface with dead scientists, The research was carefully protected from the Virus, but the scientists lost their lives. The information found at the Research base helps the Terrans to reestablish a 15 Tech Level.); 15 5711 to present (5717 AD) (Since there is not Imperium at this time the Terrans have fallen back on their old Solomani calendar.)
Now that we've established the tech levels for each period on Earth, we need to choose what rules of time travel to follow for the campaign. Specifically how mutable is the time line or how easily can time travelers change it. Here are some options. We'll assume the Time Machine is a modified Scout Vessel.
1) Anything goes: Everything the Time travelers do has the potential to alter history. This alteration never affects the Time Travelers personal histories no matter how many times they kill their own grandfather, they simply get shifted to a parallel time line. None of the Scout Ship's historical library data is ever effected by what the time travelers do, but if the Time travelers attempt to return home, they'll find that home is not there or altered, depending on how far back in time they altered history. If they altered history only slightly, they might find their own historical doubles when they return, if they altered history a great deal they might find no one they recognize back at home. The time line can be completely altered. This sort of time travel is hard on the referee because he keeps on having to invent new timelines everytime the PCs return.
2) A conservative, somewhat mutable timeline: This option is much like the one above only that the timeline only changes as much as it has to to reflect the actions of the PCs. No reflections of these changes appear in the ship's library record and the ship is shifted to a parallel timeline, but unless there is a good reason all the characters the PCs left behind are still their upon their return although they may have different roles. There is a possibility that the PCs might still encounter their own doubles, but that only occurs if the outcome of the PCs mission negates the need for the mission to occur in the first place. Simple historical research would not normally dod this.
3) The timeline catches up to the PCs: The PCs and their ship are part of the timeline that they alter, but the effect takes a while to come into effect. These are the "Back to the Future" rules of time travel. If the characters do something to negate their own existance they can see themselves slowly fade away and they usually have time to put the timeline back on track. Historical records on the ship's computer are altered as well. Certain technological items might shield characters from this effect for a while as they could the ship's records allowing time to fix history.
4) The time stream is immutable, but only those parts of history that are already know. The PCs can never alter a known historical fact unless ther records are in error. In a time travel campaign based in the New Era, much of the historical records were erased in the virus attack. A lot of history is unknown or wrong allowing the PCs much freedom of action as they travel back in time. Many missions under taken are simply historical research to find out what happened. What happened also depends on what the PCs do as they visit the past as their own actions are also a part of history. This type of time travel is characterized by the D&D "Dragonlance Legends" Series.
1) Anything goes: Everything the Time travelers do has the potential to alter history. This alteration never affects the Time Travelers personal histories no matter how many times they kill their own grandfather, they simply get shifted to a parallel time line. None of the Scout Ship's historical library data is ever effected by what the time travelers do, but if the Time travelers attempt to return home, they'll find that home is not there or altered, depending on how far back in time they altered history. If they altered history only slightly, they might find their own historical doubles when they return, if they altered history a great deal they might find no one they recognize back at home. The time line can be completely altered. This sort of time travel is hard on the referee because he keeps on having to invent new timelines everytime the PCs return.
2) A conservative, somewhat mutable timeline: This option is much like the one above only that the timeline only changes as much as it has to to reflect the actions of the PCs. No reflections of these changes appear in the ship's library record and the ship is shifted to a parallel timeline, but unless there is a good reason all the characters the PCs left behind are still their upon their return although they may have different roles. There is a possibility that the PCs might still encounter their own doubles, but that only occurs if the outcome of the PCs mission negates the need for the mission to occur in the first place. Simple historical research would not normally dod this.
3) The timeline catches up to the PCs: The PCs and their ship are part of the timeline that they alter, but the effect takes a while to come into effect. These are the "Back to the Future" rules of time travel. If the characters do something to negate their own existance they can see themselves slowly fade away and they usually have time to put the timeline back on track. Historical records on the ship's computer are altered as well. Certain technological items might shield characters from this effect for a while as they could the ship's records allowing time to fix history.
4) The time stream is immutable, but only those parts of history that are already know. The PCs can never alter a known historical fact unless ther records are in error. In a time travel campaign based in the New Era, much of the historical records were erased in the virus attack. A lot of history is unknown or wrong allowing the PCs much freedom of action as they travel back in time. Many missions under taken are simply historical research to find out what happened. What happened also depends on what the PCs do as they visit the past as their own actions are also a part of history. This type of time travel is characterized by the D&D "Dragonlance Legends" Series.
The other big question in time travel is "Who else is doing it?"
Imp Sec has a big intrest in keeping all time travel to itself.
The Zhodani would love to eliminate a troublesome Imperium.
The Hivers like to manipulate things behind the scenes, just how far back would they like to go.
The ultimate person making time travel difficult would be Grandfather. He has things just like he wants them. He would be angry with anyone who would like to make changes in his masterwork of 200,000 years.
As always, travel at your own risk.
Imp Sec has a big intrest in keeping all time travel to itself.
The Zhodani would love to eliminate a troublesome Imperium.
The Hivers like to manipulate things behind the scenes, just how far back would they like to go.
The ultimate person making time travel difficult would be Grandfather. He has things just like he wants them. He would be angry with anyone who would like to make changes in his masterwork of 200,000 years.
As always, travel at your own risk.
RabidVargr
SOC-13
Happened once in a catestrophic misjump. You could say I "jumped" on the oportunity. Har har hardyhar har.
Anyways, they were in pre-virus era, and they jumped to mid-virus era. Docked at a deserted research station where the computer enjoyed... well, research.. muhahahahaaa
RV
RV
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
GMTA, rabid Vargr! 
I did this to a travelling bunch of raccoonids (dentus/Regina/SM), on their way to terra on a science trip.("See the old homestead and pre-uplifted Raccoons"). They were attacked by Solomani advance fleet units in 1117 in Old expanses/Diaspora, and misjumped out...
They arrived 1131 (Virus well underway) and landed at raziira/Pasdaruu/Diaspora! Their ship was infected by the starport computer (unknown to them), with no gas giants landed there.
A T-Prime world, with one major hangup (raziira in Vilani means "Sixfold"): It was a hexapodal Jurassic park, former Imp hunting preserve!!! By the time they got their jump drive fixed, they discovered the hexapodalism appearing in their own race (there were 150 of them lowberthed for passage.)
They test drove a micro jump out, and all was fine, and then micro jumped back to the world from far system...and discovered themselves in 1202...and they were legends to their now completely six limbed descendants!...
RCES wasn't quite sure what to do with them...still aren't(LOL!)
I did this to a travelling bunch of raccoonids (dentus/Regina/SM), on their way to terra on a science trip.("See the old homestead and pre-uplifted Raccoons"). They were attacked by Solomani advance fleet units in 1117 in Old expanses/Diaspora, and misjumped out...
They arrived 1131 (Virus well underway) and landed at raziira/Pasdaruu/Diaspora! Their ship was infected by the starport computer (unknown to them), with no gas giants landed there.
A T-Prime world, with one major hangup (raziira in Vilani means "Sixfold"): It was a hexapodal Jurassic park, former Imp hunting preserve!!! By the time they got their jump drive fixed, they discovered the hexapodalism appearing in their own race (there were 150 of them lowberthed for passage.)
They test drove a micro jump out, and all was fine, and then micro jumped back to the world from far system...and discovered themselves in 1202...and they were legends to their now completely six limbed descendants!...
RCES wasn't quite sure what to do with them...still aren't(LOL!)
I've always wondered if TT could work using Jump Space if you used a J6 drive to travel J1 but put the full power of the drives to it the power that lets you travel 6pc in a week would be chanelled to only travel 1pc where would the rest of the power go?
It is an universal law that a jump will always take about a week sooooo how about that excess energy moving you sideways in jumpspace and either back or forward in time?
Not quite sure about controlling direction of travel unless you use a J1 worth of fuel to travel J6 and therefore
are pulled 5pc back in in time.
Any takers...
"All Aboard the Skylark"
Vidmar
It is an universal law that a jump will always take about a week sooooo how about that excess energy moving you sideways in jumpspace and either back or forward in time?
Not quite sure about controlling direction of travel unless you use a J1 worth of fuel to travel J6 and therefore
are pulled 5pc back in in time.Any takers...
"All Aboard the Skylark"
Vidmar
The other big question in time travel is "Who else is doing it?"
Imp Sec has a big intrest in keeping all time travel to itself.
The Zhodani would love to eliminate a troublesome Imperium.
The Hivers like to manipulate things behind the scenes, just how far back would they like to go.
The ultimate person making time travel difficult would be Grandfather. He has things just like he wants them. He would be angry with anyone who would like to make changes in his masterwork of 200,000 years.
As always, travel at your own risk.
Time travel might be of no use in changing history. You might only be able to fill in the unrecorded details. For example Traveller characters might be able to save the lives of minor characters in the past whose lives might be in jeapardy, but to say an Emperor who history says is going to be assasinated might be impossible. This is called the observer effect of time travel. This could be whats in effect for those people left in the present. Every time traveller the send into the past fails to make observable changes in history. A time traveller could bury a time capsule for later recovery in the present, but whatever they do is always consistent with history. This is true time travel, actual changes in history is really about travel to parallel universes.
Imp Sec has a big intrest in keeping all time travel to itself.
The Zhodani would love to eliminate a troublesome Imperium.
The Hivers like to manipulate things behind the scenes, just how far back would they like to go.
The ultimate person making time travel difficult would be Grandfather. He has things just like he wants them. He would be angry with anyone who would like to make changes in his masterwork of 200,000 years.
As always, travel at your own risk.
Time travel might be of no use in changing history. You might only be able to fill in the unrecorded details. For example Traveller characters might be able to save the lives of minor characters in the past whose lives might be in jeapardy, but to say an Emperor who history says is going to be assasinated might be impossible. This is called the observer effect of time travel. This could be whats in effect for those people left in the present. Every time traveller the send into the past fails to make observable changes in history. A time traveller could bury a time capsule for later recovery in the present, but whatever they do is always consistent with history. This is true time travel, actual changes in history is really about travel to parallel universes.
Time travel is not only about the possibility of changing history, its also about travel and exploration. Generally in prehistoric settings the Traveller characters would have much greater freedom of action. I have a book called the Atlas of the Prehistoric world, it includes maps of prehistoric Earth at different geologic eras. Each of these settings is like a separate world and many of the creatures in them look quite alien. I also have the Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs and the Illustrated directory of Dinosaurs and other Prehistoric Creatures. These creatures could be stated up according to their size category and their natural weapondry and be ready to go. Prehistoric worlds are already well developed with their own ecologies. If you visit an alien planet you might get attacked by a bunch of combat statistics that is capable of doing damage to you characters, but the Traveller creature generation system is very general. Its easier to imagine the fight if you have some idea what these creatures look like. I think a Time Jump drive should be unrestricted as far as how far back in time you could go. What is hard is travelling back into recent history. the hardest of all is travelling into a characters own personal history. The success of the time travel mission depends in part on how well the time traveling characters can blend it. Killing Dinosaurs with Fusion Rifles is OK since they don't write history, but trying to assasinate Adolf Hitler with one will automatically fail, and it must fail so spectaculary that the attempt never gets recorded in the history books. That is known history. Unknown history is a different ball game. The Traveller Historic timeline is relatively vague. Travellers based in the New Era setting are free to do whatever they want short of stopping or starting major wars or saving or assasinating major characters, but because of the virus, much of that recorded history has been erased. Generally if player characters looks up a specific event and find no references to it, they are free to do whatever they want. If they want to save a specific damsel in distress, it probably best not to look up that character in the historical database to find out whether she lives or dies, because once they find out what happens to her, they can't do anything to prevent it. They will always fail the skill check or miss in the attack when trying to save her. Likewise if a character travels into his own future to find out how he solved a specific problem, be becomes a part of that future and he is unable to alter the course of events that lead to that future. In other words its impossible for a character to travel into the future and visit his older self, if he does he'll find that he has been gone for the same amount of time that he has traveled into the future. (That is if he checks) If he does not and does not attempt to contact any of his aquaintences in the future he will never know and so will be free to travel back to the present.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Isn't the Galaxy big enough, then? </font>[/QUOTE]Its not so much that the world/galaxy/universe/etc. isn't big enough as its human nature to look beyond, wherever that may be. We began exploring the solar system long before we knew more than a small fraction of our own world. In fact it was the exploration of the solar system (by observation) that led us to discover that our home rock was in fact a globe and not the center of creation (physically anyway). Who knows what we could learn about the here and now by exploring the there and when?
That said, as a time-traveller (
stuck in forward at 1 to 1 for the moment), I doubt I'd use it in a game. Using time travel as a story element is fraught with pitfalls. It is rarely done well, perhaps because those who attempt to use it (the literary device) are not well versed in the mechanics of time. I'd say at the least think it out very carefully, then think like a player given the ability and you should find at least one very good reason to not do it, or make it a one way trip for the player(s) 
Just my opinion of course
That said, as a time-traveller ( stuck in forward at 1 to 1 for the moment), I doubt I'd use it in a game. Using time travel as a story element is fraught with pitfalls. It is rarely done well, perhaps because those who attempt to use it (the literary device) are not well versed in the mechanics of time. I'd say at the least think it out very carefully, then think like a player given the ability and you should find at least one very good reason to not do it, or make it a one way trip for the player(s)
Oh why not? Is time travel all about creating paradoxes and killing your grandfather? That stuff gets old really fast. You simply disallow paradoxes from occuring. Just say, "Sorry your character can't do that, it is inconsistent with your characters history and existance, or if you accomplished this you would have no reason to under take this mission."
Isn't the Galaxy big enough, then?
No its not. the galaxy is not really big enough to discover a planet with humans on it. Any animal life you find will have to be completely made up most likely on the fly. History and prehistory have ready-made ecosystems and cultures that you can use with little adjustment.
Also the galaxy is too big. There is no realistic way to have a star hopping campaign unless you have FTL travel. If you have FTL travel though time travel then becomes possible. Since time travel might involve things such as paradoxes, then most scientists simply say FTL is impossible as the simplest way of resolving them. If you have time travel, then the most habitable planet you can reach is Earth's past. A realistic alien planet would have plant and animal life that is incompatible with humans. The meat and plant fibers would not contains, proteins, fats, and fibers that we can digest. Our stomachs have evolved to digest Earth life. Alien meat would most likely make us sick. Alien life might also exist under conditions that we would find intolerable such as 50 degrees centigrade in an atmosphere that's 30% Carbon Dioxide in a 10 bar atmosphere. These conditions might be perfectly suitable for the plant and animal life that exists there, but not for us. Past Earth's on the otherhand are habitable for humans, that is unless you go too far into the past. One gets around paradoxes by contraining the characters freedom to create them. You just got to have an understanding between the Referee and the players.
Oh why not? Is time travel all about creating paradoxes and killing your grandfather? That stuff gets old really fast. You simply disallow paradoxes from occuring. Just say, "Sorry your character can't do that, it is inconsistent with your characters history and existance, or if you accomplished this you would have no reason to under take this mission."
Isn't the Galaxy big enough, then?
No its not. the galaxy is not really big enough to discover a planet with humans on it. Any animal life you find will have to be completely made up most likely on the fly. History and prehistory have ready-made ecosystems and cultures that you can use with little adjustment.
Also the galaxy is too big. There is no realistic way to have a star hopping campaign unless you have FTL travel. If you have FTL travel though time travel then becomes possible. Since time travel might involve things such as paradoxes, then most scientists simply say FTL is impossible as the simplest way of resolving them. If you have time travel, then the most habitable planet you can reach is Earth's past. A realistic alien planet would have plant and animal life that is incompatible with humans. The meat and plant fibers would not contains, proteins, fats, and fibers that we can digest. Our stomachs have evolved to digest Earth life. Alien meat would most likely make us sick. Alien life might also exist under conditions that we would find intolerable such as 50 degrees centigrade in an atmosphere that's 30% Carbon Dioxide in a 10 bar atmosphere. These conditions might be perfectly suitable for the plant and animal life that exists there, but not for us. Past Earth's on the otherhand are habitable for humans, that is unless you go too far into the past. One gets around paradoxes by contraining the characters freedom to create them. You just got to have an understanding between the Referee and the players.
Ok, heres a big WHAT IF?
I put forth the following proposition:
Jump Drives are incorrectly operating Time Machines.
Let's look at some facts we can use to work into this hypothesis:
1) No one truly understands how the whole Jump Space thing works.
2) Jump Drives are not really FTL travel - you "vanish" from one location and reappear at another.
3) Jumps always take 168 hrs, +/-.
Now for the WHAT IF:
1) What if the drive was supposed to move you through time instead of space?
2) What if everything we know about the jump calculation mathematic is incorrect? What if it was in fact supposed to be the distance traveled that is the constant factor instead of the time?
3) What if the 1 week "subjective time" was really an error produced by faulty calculations?
4) In theory, a micro-jump is already a time machine. It moves you 1 week into the future without moving you any distance while you experience a 1 week "subjective time" travel condition.
5) What if the power that was applied to move your spacial coordinates could in fact be channeled to move your temporal coordinates?
6) What if the "subjective time" calculation could be refined, producing less "subjective time" for less parsecs moved? In other words, a J6 drive calculated for a full power micro jump that took 1 day instead of a week. Think of the ramifications of that.
7) What sort of power/jump ratio would you need before you started to be able to arrive before you left?
8) Would channeling more power enable you to move further into the past? Drives may be developed that could be rated at T-factors. T1 (+/-1 year), T2 (+/-2 years), T3 (+/-4 years), T4 (+/-16 years), T5 (+/-256 years), T6 (+/-65, 536 years), etc.
9) Power required would be immense. Imagine, if you will, a planetoid size Time vessel with the fuel capacity, power plant and drive capability for this. If anyone could build it, it would be the Ancients.
10) This explains misjumps. Obviously, those who have misjumped are traveling into the future, but their "subjective time" calculations are off, unfortunately subjecting them to the trip at 1:1 time. Or perhaps they jumped into the past?
How's that for some big WHAT IF'S? Think it's a good research problem for an Imperial Research Station? How about a whacked out idea for a jump sickness crazed engineer or scientist? How 'bout for a leftover Ancients device? The last could be a one way trip unless the PC's figure it out...
I put forth the following proposition:
Jump Drives are incorrectly operating Time Machines.
Let's look at some facts we can use to work into this hypothesis:
1) No one truly understands how the whole Jump Space thing works.
2) Jump Drives are not really FTL travel - you "vanish" from one location and reappear at another.
3) Jumps always take 168 hrs, +/-.
Now for the WHAT IF:
1) What if the drive was supposed to move you through time instead of space?
2) What if everything we know about the jump calculation mathematic is incorrect? What if it was in fact supposed to be the distance traveled that is the constant factor instead of the time?
3) What if the 1 week "subjective time" was really an error produced by faulty calculations?
4) In theory, a micro-jump is already a time machine. It moves you 1 week into the future without moving you any distance while you experience a 1 week "subjective time" travel condition.
5) What if the power that was applied to move your spacial coordinates could in fact be channeled to move your temporal coordinates?
6) What if the "subjective time" calculation could be refined, producing less "subjective time" for less parsecs moved? In other words, a J6 drive calculated for a full power micro jump that took 1 day instead of a week. Think of the ramifications of that.
7) What sort of power/jump ratio would you need before you started to be able to arrive before you left?
8) Would channeling more power enable you to move further into the past? Drives may be developed that could be rated at T-factors. T1 (+/-1 year), T2 (+/-2 years), T3 (+/-4 years), T4 (+/-16 years), T5 (+/-256 years), T6 (+/-65, 536 years), etc.
9) Power required would be immense. Imagine, if you will, a planetoid size Time vessel with the fuel capacity, power plant and drive capability for this. If anyone could build it, it would be the Ancients.
10) This explains misjumps. Obviously, those who have misjumped are traveling into the future, but their "subjective time" calculations are off, unfortunately subjecting them to the trip at 1:1 time. Or perhaps they jumped into the past?
How's that for some big WHAT IF'S? Think it's a good research problem for an Imperial Research Station? How about a whacked out idea for a jump sickness crazed engineer or scientist? How 'bout for a leftover Ancients device? The last could be a one way trip unless the PC's figure it out...
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