Nathan Brazil
SOC-14 1K
That is a philosophical debate for in-universe or IRL. As far as I am concerned, it is new playing piece for the RPG.
Time Travel in a Traveller campaign
- Thread starter Werner
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That is a philosophical debate for in-universe or IRL. As far as I am concerned, it is new playing piece for the RPG.
Proneutron
SOC-13
No, it isn't a philosophical debate. It is reality. If I create a copy of you while YOU are alive then say YOU are going to be terminated but no worries as you will be alive as your copy is alive you WILL reject that as not being the REAL situation.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Very nicely put.
Proneutron
SOC-13
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Is it ok if I borrow your quote when discussing such things with Eclipse Phase and Altered carbon fans? I will credit you as the original proponent of the argument that destroys their misconceptions 
Proneutron
SOC-13
Is it ok if I borrow your quote when discussing such things with Eclipse Phase and Altered carbon fans? I will credit you as the original proponent of the argument that destroys their misconceptions
Of course but no need to credit. BTW, you might want to rewrite as the wording is clumsy in the last sentence, using the "you" pronoun a bit too much.
Well in this case the original piece was never played, it is his back story, it has the same effect as a prior career, he gets the advantage of youth while at the same time having lots of skills with all those career terms he had or remembers he had. Since no one was playing the original character his memories were copied from,, no one has their character die.
well in this case the person who was copied died of natural causes, so copying him did not kill him, he was only dead for a short while before the froze him, if they did not freeze him, he would still be dead, he lived a full life, had children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren, so his life was not cut short, and now several thousand years later we create a new person with his memories and experiences, because he has those memories, he thinks he is the old person, he looks just the way he did during World War II, or so he remembers anyway, he is going to act and behave like that long dead person, and because of those memories, he thinks he is that person.
Proneutron
SOC-13
Irrelevant to my argument. I didn't argue what you are posting about.
So we copy you while you're unconscious... and then we wake up both of you at the same time. Neither knows who the copy is, and both believe they are the original.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Correct, they both believe they are the original, but one of them isn't. There are probably enough errors in copying that you can find the difference given enough time, but the fact remains that you now have two distinct individuals.
Kill one and their continuity of existence ceases - if you kill the clone the original continues, kill the original and the clone continues, but in this case the original you is dead so you no longer experience the universe.
If you are the one cloned will you take the risk?
Kill one and their continuity of existence ceases - if you kill the clone the original continues, kill the original and the clone continues, but in this case the original you is dead so you no longer experience the universe.
If you are the one cloned will you take the risk?
Unless you want to talk of souls, then continuity of the mental experience of self is the only definition of "me," so if I(1) and I(2) both remember the same life, they are the same... and while it might the death of I(1) certainly ends I(1), I(2) goes on, not having experienced that.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
But they are not, and never can be, the same.
The original you that is you is dead, you will never experience the universe again, the copy will, but it isn't you.
This is nothing to do with souls, it is about the continuity of existence. The day old clone may think it is you and will go on to live and experience many things, but you won't - you are dead. It may give you some peace of mind to think that you live on after your death, but you don't, the copy does, and the copy isn't you.
The original you that is you is dead, you will never experience the universe again, the copy will, but it isn't you.
This is nothing to do with souls, it is about the continuity of existence. The day old clone may think it is you and will go on to live and experience many things, but you won't - you are dead. It may give you some peace of mind to think that you live on after your death, but you don't, the copy does, and the copy isn't you.
Further:
Make two clones of an original. Which of the two copies is the continuation of the original?
I(1) is dead, and therefore doesn't know anything about it... but I(2) is alive and remembers being I(1). I(2) IS I(1) from that point, and there is no other to say otherwise.
The copy is different from the original, but the original is also different from the copy all we really know is there is a difference, we know one is the original and the other is the copy, but we don't know which one, as we measured the original to the best of our ability in making the copy. It might be just as accurate to say that one person split in two to make two people.
How are they different then? Is each atom unique? How can you tell one atom from another, there are a limited number of ways atoms can be different.
What is the probability of you existing? I assume that probability is a value between one and zero, closer to zero than to one, but with an infinite amount of space and time, you will reoccur, someone will exist that will have your memories up until the point of your death and then will continue to make new memories as your new life continues. I think we can call this "probabilistic resurrection". You are a certain arrangement of atoms, and their their is only a finite number of possible arrangements of that number and those kinds of atom. If you have an infinite amount of time to play this out, the end effect is that everyone is immortal, they only appear to die as seen by other people when their bodies expire. That is the theory anyway.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
You are missing the point - you are 'you', clone you isn't you, so you are dead.
Just because clone you thinks it is you doesn't alter the fact that you are dead, your existence is over.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
That doesn't make sense.
We know which is the original since that is the one that was copied.
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