Thoughts on a 2D T5 Mechanic

[Supplement Four]

I'm playing around with the T5 task system, looking for a good, easy way to implement a 2D, roll high mechanic in its place. I'm just thinking out loud here in case someone else has a good idea.

Throwing 1D is linear.

Throwing 2D, you get a pyramid--a straight line to the mid-point, then a declining straight line back down.

Throwing 3D, you get a nice, fat, juicy bell curve.

Throwing 4D or more, you get a bell curve, but the more dice you throw, the more narrow the curve. All of the results tend to cluster towards the middle, like gravity pulling them to the center.

In other words, the distribution on 4D or more makes it less and less likely that extremes will be thrown.

People sometimes criticize 2D systems because there are only 11 outcomes. But, all 11 of those outcomes are useful. If you throw 4D or more dice, the extremes become less and less useful.



What am I talking about?

Check out this 2D, higher is better, success outcome chart.

2     100%
3     97%
4     92%
5     83%
6     72%
7     58%
8     42%
9     28%
10    17%
11    8%
12    3%

One can argue that there's really no difference between rolling 2 or rolling 3, but you've got at least a 5% change for every other result.




Now, look at this similar chart for a 5D throw.

5     100%
6     99%
7     99%
8     99%
9     99%
10    98%
11    97%
12    94%
13    90%
14    85%
15    78%
16    69%
17    60%
18    50%
19    40%
20    31%
21    22%
22    15%
23    10%
24    6%
25    3%
26    2%
27    1%
28    1%
29    1%
30    1%

So, here, results 5-12 are all pretty much the same, and at the other end, results 25-30 are all very close, too.

That leaves about 11 results (out of the total of 25) that represent a result that is practically different from the others.



Let's compare the 11 results from both charts.

2     100%     13     90%
3     97%      14     85%
4     92%      15     78%
5     83%      16     69%
6     72%      17     60%
7     58%      18     50%
8     42%      19     40%
9     28%      20     31%
10    17%      21     22%
11    8%       22     15%
12    3%       23     10%

See where I'm going with this?

I'm interested in finding a way to easily map the 11 different outcomes from the 5D spread to the 11 available on the 2D spread. And, I want to do this in a way that would be extremely easy for the player--where he could eyeball the 5D target and instantly know what the equivalent 2D target would be.

For example, if the 5D target is 18, I want the player to know that we're talking about a 2D target number of 7. 5D targets of 1-12 would convert to a 2D target of 2 (100%). The same on the other end. 5D targets of 24-30 would convert to 2D targets of 12 (3%).




Anybody have any useful input on this?

 

[Supplement Four]

What first comes to mind is figuring a number for each T5 difficulty code. With 5D tasks, you'd subtract 11 from the target to get a 2D target.

If the T5 5D target is 22, then the 2D target is 11.

Then, you just work up a number to use for each T5 Difficulty code, 1D to 10D.

The problem with that, though, is that T5 tasks are inverted--roll under proposistions. What I put above is the higher is better chances.

Therefore, subtracting a number would not work.

And, I don't just want to convert T5 tasks to a 2D task. If that was all that was needed, then we could just look up the chance of success on the appropriate chart for the T5 task then select the closest chance matching success on the 2D higher-is-better chart.

That's a lot of work--no good. I want to avoid going through all the motions of a T5 task. I want to go straight to a 2D task equivalent.

Hell...maybe the UTP (the MT task system), or the UGM (or even the MGT system) is the way to go--that added to some common sense.

 

[Vladika]

It's a game. Why complicate Traveller? Of course, I seriously doubt you, or anyone else, could make T5 more complicated while retailing any degree of comprehension.

 

[Supplement Four]

It's a game. Why complicate Traveller? Of course, I seriously doubt you, or anyone else, could make T5 more complicated while retailing any degree of comprehension.

Just trying to come up with a T5-compatible, easy to use, intuitive, 2D based, higher-is-better task system that people can use as an alternative with the game.

The order may be too tall, though. o:

 

[Frewfrux]

Just trying to come up with a T5-compatible, easy to use, intuitive, 2D based, higher-is-better task system that people can use as an alternative with the game.

The order may be too tall, though. o:

Do you really think that will make it simpler? I don't know. I've played "higher is better" all my life (from 2D to D20 to D100 to #D#) and it has taken me hardly any time to get used to a lower is better system. I fail to see how trying to roll high verses trying to roll low will simplify things.

The one thing that I *have* found is that the more modifications to the die rolls the more complicated it gets, whether it's mods to the target number or mods to the dice it doesn't seem to matter - less mods = simper game.

That said, from my experience (which is all I really have to go on) the simpler the game, the less 'realistic' it is. There is a degree of complexity that I am more than willing to accept for the sake of realism. I haven't finished going through the T5 rules yet, but so far I haven't found anything so overly complex it's not playable. But, I guess that's just me.

I will say this, however: I have found that there are many places in the rules where things are worded to sound complicated when really they are very simple. It almost gives me the feeling that it's trying to sound "smart" somehow (that's not the right word, but I don't know what is.) Having said that, however, it's really just a matter of looking past the verbiage and trying to figure out what is really meant.

But like I said, that's just me.

 

[Supplement Four]

Do you really think that will make it simpler? I don't know. I've played "higher is better" all my life (from 2D to D20 to D100 to #D#) and it has taken me hardly any time to get used to a lower is better system. I fail to see how trying to roll high verses trying to roll low will simplify things.

It's not the roll high aspect that is the goal--that's just gravy on the potatoes. Besides, I've already cracked that cookie. If all I wanted to do was roll high, I'd just use HIGH FIVE.

What I'm after is a simple 2D mechanic--simple like the UTP from MegaTraveller--where I just have to roll 2D, add in mods from skill and stat, going after a difficulty target.

I want to de-complicate the T5 task system by replacing it with a simple, 2D, higher is better version of it.

And, I want something that is not only very simple to use but also reports success chance in the same ballpark as if I had used the T5 system.

It is a very tall order. Not sure if it can be done.

But, if I can crack this one, I think it will be very useful to a lot of Traveller players out there.

 

[Frewfrux]

It's not the roll high aspect that is the goal--that's just gravy on the potatoes. Besides, I've already cracked that cookie. If all I wanted to do was roll high, I'd just use HIGH FIVE.

What I'm after is a simple 2D mechanic--simple like the UTP from MegaTraveller--where I just have to roll 2D, add in mods from skill and stat, going after a difficulty target.

I want to de-complicate the T5 task system by replacing it with a simple, 2D, higher is better version of it.

And, I want something that is not only very simple to use but also reports success chance in the same ballpark as if I had used the T5 system.

It is a very tall order. Not sure if it can be done.

But, if I can crack this one, I think it will be very useful to a lot of Traveller players out there.

Never played MegaTraveller, sorry (unless you count the video games).

Are you wanting it to be 2D6? 1D100 would solve your issue (can be generated easily with 2D10). You can not only mimic whatever % range you want, but you also get finer control over mods.

In my opinion, a D100 system could easily be more complicated just because you are adding and subtracting larger numbers (it's not as easy for some to do in their heads the way single digit numbers are) but if you don't mind the mods, it would definitely be simpler.

 

[Supplement Four]

Never played MegaTraveller, sorry (unless you count the video games).

The UTP (originally created for CT by DGP, but has become known as the "MT task system") is a gift from the Traveller gods. It's simple, easy to use, intuitive.

T5's "options" are copied from the UTP (uncertain tasks, cooperative tasks, hasty tasks, opposed tasks, etc), but the core of the UTP is a thing of beauty.

You roll 2D6 (yes, D6, this is Traveller, after all), looking for a target number.

Modifiers to the throw, you just add them to your dice throw. You get +1 per skill level and +1 per 5 points of stat (so, +0, +1, +2, or +3).

Targets start at 3+ and rise 4 points each difficulty level.

3+   Easy
7+   Average
11+  Difficult
15+  Formidable
 
...and so on.

For example, Joe Average: 777777 Pilot-2 attempts a delicate landing on a small asteroid. The Ref calls this a Difficult procedure, so...

2D +3 for 11+

That's the task. Roll 2D, add +2 for skill, then add +1 for stat, looking for a total that is 11 or greater. It's a 42% chance of success.

Simple. Easy. Elegant.

In my opinion, a D100 system could easily be more complicated just because you are adding and subtracting larger numbers (it's not as easy for some to do in their heads the way single digit numbers are) but if you don't mind the mods, it would definitely be simpler.

Nope. D6 only. This is Traveller.

 

[Frewfrux]

Modifiers to the throw, you just add them to your dice throw. You get +1 per skill level and +1 per 5 points of stat (so, +0, +1, +2, or +3).

I don't understand how adding modifiers is simpler than adding dice. If anything, due to the extra math, it's more complicated. Adding die results is far less complicated than adding and subtracting all applicable mods. If you can replace even just some of the mods by adding dice, how is that not simple?

I haven't quite finished the Task chapter yet, so maybe I've yet to come across this behemoth of complexity you keep talking about. When I'm done I'll talk more.

Nope. D6 only. This is Traveller.

Uh, nope. D6 AND D10 (for generating the spectral class of the star). Unless you use a convoluted die calculation to simulate a D10 on D6's....but for someone who is so adamant about simplicity I can't see how that would make any sense.

 

[Supplement Four]

I don't understand how adding modifiers is simpler than adding dice.

Yeah, you're definitely not understanding some of the problems with the T5 task system. Take a look at THIS POST. It does a good job of explaining my troubles with it.

Uh, nope. D6 AND D10 (for generating the spectral class of the star).

D10! Never! This is Traveller!

I'm a CT guy. Only D6 are used.

For T5, see page 23, fourth para from the top: "Only Six Sided Dice. Only D6 are used in Traveller."

 

[Frewfrux]

Yeah, you're definitely not understanding some of the problems with the T5 task system. Take a look at THIS POST. It does a good job of explaining my troubles with it.

I've already read that post. It does not show (to me, anyway) how more dice = more complicated.

What it DOES show is how adding modifiers makes a task more complicated than it might be otherwise. Basically, each of those points there are just versions of "add (or subtract) this mod (or die/dice)." In THAT sense I might agree with you, the more mods (whether #'s or dice) the more "complicated" it gets.

D10! Never! This is Traveller!

I'm a CT guy. Only D6 are used.

For T5, see page 23, fourth para from the top: "Only Six Sided Dice. Only D6 are used in Traveller."

From page 23, the full paragraph is:

Only Six Sided Dice. Only D6 dice are used in Traveller. Sometimes, in order to remain true to the D6 concept, the system contorts D6 die rolls to achieve special results (for example, even distributions from 1 to 10 or 1 to 9). While purists may object, no one else will mind if you use an available D10 or D20.

I read that as "unless you have an irrational fear of other dice, it's sometimes simpler to use a D10 or D20 on the odd occasion with these rules rather than just D6."

But maybe I'm just ambi-dice-trous

 

[rancke]

I read that as "unless you have an irrational fear of other dice, it's sometimes simpler to use a D10 or D20 on the odd occasion with these rules rather than just D6."

I think the "absolutely nothing but D6 no matter what under no circumstances whatsoever" paradigm is about 30 years out of date. There is no practical reason to stick exclusively to D6s; they're easy enough to come by unless you live somewhere that the postal service don't service. So "2D6 because that's the very bestest random distribution imaginable" is a valid argument (it's wrong, but not everybody realizes that ), but "D6 because this is TRAVELLER!!!" seems to me to be pure affectation (No offense, S4). You can use other kinds of dice if they happen to be a better match for the numbers you want to generate without risking your Traveller books spontaneously combusting.

(Incidentally, for generating a number between 1 and 9, two D6s are best. )


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

I think the "absolutely nothing but D6 no matter what under no circumstances whatsoever" paradigm is about 30 years out of date.

When I first picked up TNE, do you know what my very first disappointment was? Before setting or anything else?

That it used a base mechanic other than 2D6.

I spent a TON of time converting the rules to the UTP so that I could use 2D6.

I don't think that D&D should be anything other than d20 vs. AC for attack throws, and Traveller needs to be 2D6 (Yea CT, Yea MT, Yea MGT, Boo other Traveller versions).

I never picked up T20 at all, mainly for this reason.

I feel pretty strongly about it.

Now, other games...no restriction. Love D6 Star Wars. Love roll low percentile based FASA Star Trek. Love the interesting and unique system used in the James Bond RPG. Love Top Secret/SI's system.

But Traveller? D6 only.

There is no practical reason to stick exclusively to D6s; they're easy enough to come by unless you live somewhere that the postal service don't service. So "2D6 because that's the very bestest random distribution imaginable" is a valid argument (it's wrong, but not everybody realizes that ), but "D6 because this is TRAVELLER!!!" seems to me to be pure affectation (No offense, S4)

No offense taken. I admit it. It's pure preference for the style of the game.

My UGM is popular among some Traveller fans, but I doubt it would be even looked at if it used, say, a d20, instead of 2D6.

I'm not the only one that feels this way.

 

[Supplement Four]

I've already read that post. It does not show (to me, anyway) how more dice = more complicated.

It's not about any single aspect of the T5 system. It's, as a whole, how slowly the T5 system works. You've got to figure targets (C+S) instead of instantly know them (as with Averge Difficulty equals 7+ throw). You've got to figure modifiers (S-R) instead of just adding them to a throw. You've got to throw several dice, then add, which can be slow. All of this, together, makes the T5 task system very slow and fiddly.

Not all multi-dice systems are slow and fiddly, though. D6 Star Wars is brilliant. But, then again, D6 Star Wars is intuitive and very quick, without requiring all the figuring that T5 requires.

In other words, if a different system were chosen for T5, most sections of the game, like sensor tasks, would be much easier (and quicker) to use.

 

[daltoncalford]

Hey SF,

I followed a similar path as you did, going down various statistical routes until I started to use the following system, that seems to work well for us (I have had two sessions so far and it worked well).

I am not going to attack other systems, just state my house rule system.

I went with a 3D6 system for a nice bell curve, but, otherwise it is a simple fixed number of dice, roll high system.

Base Method : Roll higher than target number on 3D6 + Modifiers

Referee will roll 1-3 of the dice depending upon the level of obscuration involved.

Difficulty	Roll # to Succeed	Spectacular Failure if Roll is	Spectacular Success if Roll is
Easy	5+	--	15+
Average	10+	2-	20+
Difficult	15+	3-	25+
Formidable	20+	3-	30+
Staggering	25+	5-	35+
Hopeless	30+	7-	40+
Impossible	35+	9-	--
Beyond Impossible	40+	11-	--

Task Level of Effect = absolute value of the difference between the target number and the final result.

Example Modifiers (I am not listing them all, but these give a good idea)

Attributes

Some tasks will allow for multiple attributes to modify the task. Unless stated otherwise, the player may choose which attribute to use as the primary and which to use as the secondary or even tertiary.
+ Primary Attribute/3
+ Secondary Attribute/5
+ Tertiary Attribute/10
round down
​

Skill

If the skill is a default skill, treat it as skill level 0
If the skill is required, but missing, subtract 5.
Some tasks will allow for multiple skills to modify the task. Unless stated otherwise, the player may choose which skill to use as the primary and which to use as the secondary.
+ Primary Skill Level
+ 1/2 Secondary Skill Level
+ 1/5 Tertiary Skill Level
Missing Required Skill = -5
Round up​

Knowledge

If more than one knowledge could apply, select the best one. Only one knowledge may be applied to a task.
+ Knowledge Level​

Time

The penalty for rushing a job is greater than the benefit for taking extra time.
Triple Time +5
Double Time +3
Half TimeSkill -4
Quarter Time -8​

Technology

Reduce TL modifier by characters level of JOT.
Baseline assumptions about how things work change as the underlying technology changes.
Jack of All Trades shows a level of cross training in the underlying concepts so may be applied as a dice modifier.
1 Level Difference -1
2 Levels Difference -2
3 Levels Difference -4
4 Levels Difference -8
5 Levels Difference -16
etc......​

Equipment

Some equipment is designed to reduce the required skill level of the user, some even going so far as to remove any penalty for the users total lack of skill. This is reflected in the ergnomic bonus.
Some bonuses assume a level of skill of the user and you may only get an equipment bonus to the maximum of your skill level. So a skill level 2 user would only get a maximum skill modifier of +2 even if the equipment has a higher skill bonus.
+ Ergonomics bonus
+ Skill Modifier​

 

[Supplement Four]

Interesting system, there, Dalton. Some interesting choices you made. Thanks for posting.