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Thoughts about constructing a Traveller Universe

ffilz

SOC-12
I posted this on my blog, but I thought I'd post here also:

I've been thinking about what my Traveller universe might end up looking like.

I'm almost certain to use Paul Gazis's Eight Worlds rules for star ships (and perhaps more of his rules), though I might adjust some numbers depending on what assumptions I make for my universe.

One result of this is that ships aren't constrained to discrete jumps, nor are all jumps one week in duration. A jump 1 ship could take two weeks to travel as far as a jump 2 ship travels in one week (we don't yet know how the fuel costs change). So, rather than the universe being a hex map, each star will have coordinates to some precision (1 ly? .1 ly? .01 ly?). I'm still debating 2-d versus 3-d, and if I use real star locations or not, and if Sol/Earth is part of my universe (probably yes, but still up in the air, is it in the initial locale, or somewhere's distant).

As I have been thinking and processing the various systems for generating stars, and thinking about how to handle interstellar travel, I've come up with a few thoughts:

First, a science fiction universe with interstellar travel will have a bunch of "interesting" stars. These stars are where the main action takes place, or are home worlds, or whatever. These stars need not be occupied by earth-like worlds, but they probably have to have useful resources of some sort.

Now one could have a universe consisting just of those stars, and abstract space travel so those stars are the only ones that matter. Such a universe might even use an abstract map. But such a setup would diminish the importance of ships to the game (and one could even imagine a universe that virtually eliminates the importance of ships, to the point one might as well just have a teleporter network between the worlds of interest).

So then, to make ships and their operations interesting and important, we need to bring in other factors. A simple factor to bring in is to make logistics important. Now it matters how far apart the stars are. Additional stars might become important, not because they have an interesting world to have an adventure on, but because a ship needs to make a stopover for logistical reasons (for example, to re-fuel).

Of course, once such stars gain logistical relevance, they become a place for excitement to happen. During a war, a stopover might be blockaded. Or pirates might infest a stopover. Or some kind of natural event might take place, or there might be a systems failure in the ship.

Now it becomes interesting where you go, and what route you take.

Then the question arises of how many stopover locations are there? Too many, and they become meaningless. For example, say interesting stars are 10, 20, or even 30 light years apart, and ships can refuel by dipping into a star. Introduce hundreds or thousands of stopovers between any two interesting stars (or really even more than a few), and suddenly it becomes unlikely someone would be lying in wait for you. So probably stopovers have to be rare. So we probably can't refuel from a sun. Probably wilderness refueling has to be either slow, or unreliable. Now, we might have a refueling base at a star with nothing much more than a single icy planet where a plant can painstakingly extract hydrogen, perhaps, for a difficult route, just enough for a few small ships per week or two, and they probably charge a lot. But it might be worth it to shave off some time for a rich cargo, or important mission.

Of course, depending on how the logistics work out, tankers might be workable for refueling, but if that becomes too easy, we're back to hundreds of stopovers.

So lots to think about. And none of this particularly depends on what rules are used to generate the "interesting" systems, though they do depend on how one treats the "realistic" data.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Frank
 
I've been thinking about what my Traveller universe might end up looking like.


ffilz,

Personal TUs are always fun to discuss.

One result of this is that ships aren't constrained to discrete jumps...

What do you mean by "discrete jumps"?

... nor are all jumps one week in duration. A jump 1 ship could take two weeks to travel as far as a jump 2 ship travels in one week (we don't yet know how the fuel costs change).

Well, now your universe is no longer a Traveller universe. It's a science-fiction universe and a fun universe, but it isn't a Traveller universe.


Regards,
Bill
 
What do you mean by "discrete jumps"?
Traveller ships jump 1 parsec, 2 parsecs, 3 parsecs, etc. There aren't 1.2 parsec jumps, and stars are always an integral number of parsecs away.

Well, now your universe is no longer a Traveller universe. It's a science-fiction universe and a fun universe, but it isn't a Traveller universe.
I guess that depends on how strict a definition of Traveller one uses...

A do conceed that at some point, one isn't playing Traveller, but some other SF game. Not sure where my game will end up, but I wouldn't necessarily draw the line at alternate ship construction and universe mapping/generation techniques (especially considering how much these have changed between various versions of Traveller - well, ok, the discrete jumps and 2-d hex placement of stars has been pretty constant).

Frank
 
Traveller ships jump 1 parsec, 2 parsecs, 3 parsecs, etc. There aren't 1.2 parsec jumps, and stars are always an integral number of parsecs away.
Not true. They jump up to 1 parsec, up to 2 parsecs, up to 3 parsecs, etc. A 1.2 parsec jump can be performed by a jump-2 drive and up.


Hans
 
Not true. They jump up to 1 parsec, up to 2 parsecs, up to 3 parsecs, etc. A 1.2 parsec jump can be performed by a jump-2 drive and up.

Sure, though my primary experience has been with Classic Traveller, I don't remember such a detail from there*. But all jumps still take one week (plus or minus small variation), right? A Jump 6 ship is no faster than a Jump 1 ship for a 1 parsec jump.

* Minor quibble, if we assume star locations are rounded to the nearest hex location, a Jump 1 ship must actually be capable of jumping just barely 2 parsecs, actually more... 2 parsecs is from edge to edge across the hexes, but you can draw a diagonal line between opposing "corners" of the two edges that must be longer than 2 parsecs. So if we (ignoring 3-d) got rid of the hexes and used actual XY coordinates for the stars of the Imperium (assuming we had a way to get such data), two stars that on the hex map would be Jump-1 distance apart might rise to Jump-2 distance, or even Jump-3 (assuming Jump 1 is really <= 1 parsec). Allowing Jump-1 to be up to 1.5 parsecs will allow most hex map Jump-1s to still be Jump-1 in XY coordinates, and none would be Jump-3.

But let's not get hung up on this factor. The point is, I am considering using XY (or XYZ) coordinates, not hexes, and allowing a Jump-2 ship to traverse whatever a Jump-1 distance is (may not be 1 parsec in my game) in half the time (and probably a Jump-1 ship to traverse a Jump-2 distance in twice the time, given enough fuel).

I'm more interested in discussing how one might lay out a universe. No matter how the math of jump drives actually works out, there are still "interesting" planets, stop-overs, and stars that may be of little to no interest.

Frank
 
I don't see a problem with describing this as a Traveller based universe.

Provided that the minimum time in jump is 1 week and there is no faster ftl comms then the basics are there.

Are you saying that a jump 1 ship can actually, if it has the fuel, just stay in jump space and travel further but take extra time?
While a jump 6 ship could jump any distance up to 6 parsecs in a week but no faster, i.e. it still takes a week for a j6 ship to jump 1 parsec.
 
My thought has two parts.

First, a Jump-1 ship with enough fuel could stay in jump space for two weeks and travel 2 parsecs.

Second, a Jump-2 ship would only take 3.5 days to make a 1 parsec jump.

Frank
 
Traveller ships jump 1 parsec, 2 parsecs, 3 parsecs, etc. There aren't 1.2 parsec jumps, and stars are always an integral number of parsecs away.


ffilz,

That's something you've not understood correctly. Traveller most certainly do not jump in exact parsec hops. A jump1 drive allows jumps up to one parsec, a jump2 drive allows jumps up to two parsecs, and so forth.

I guess that depends on how strict a definition of Traveller one uses...

Considering that you didn't understand how jump drive actually works, your "definition" of Traveller is rather suspect. ;)

A do conceed that at some point, one isn't playing Traveller, but some other SF game.

Whether it is Traveller or some other sic-fi game is of no consequence. Your setting sounds very interesting, especially the 3D aspect, sounds like it will be a helluva lot of fun, and definitely is something we all would love to hear more about! :)


Regards,
Bill
 
But the definition of Jump-1 being "up to 1 parsec" doesn't work unless every star is at the center of it's hex. If stars can be off-center in their hex, then two stars in adjacent hexes can be more than 1 parsec away (in fact, they can be more than 2 parsecs away). So either, a Jump-1 can go between stars in adjacent hexes even if they are actually more than 2 parsecs away, but can't travel to a star 2 hexes away even though it might be just barely 1 parsec away).

So really a Classic Traveller Jump-1 ship is capable of traveling exactly 1 hex, and is really independent of the actual distance between the two stars. A Jump-2 ship is capable of traveling exactly 1 hex or exactly 2 hexes.

Now if you deviate from the Traveller rules and consider the locations of stars to more precision than 1 hex, then you also have to decide if a Jump-1 can only travel 1 parsec, in which case, many distances that in a hex mapped universe were Jump-1 now become Jump-2.

Frank
 
But the definition of Jump-1 being "up to 1 parsec" doesn't work unless every star is at the center of it's hex.


Frank,

That's the way it has worked since 1977.

If stars can be off-center in their hex...

You're reading too much into it and, because of that, making unsupported assumptions. Hex mapping is an artifact of game play and only an approximation of actual physical distance. This has been true since wargames began using hexes in the late 1960s.

So really a Classic Traveller Jump-1 ship is capable of traveling exactly 1 hex...

Bollocks.

Across 30-plus years, several rules versions, dozens of supplements, and hundreds of published adventure a jump1 drive has been capable of jumps up to one parsec in distance, a jump2 drive has been capable of jump up to two parsecs distance, and so forth.

That's the way the game works and that's the way the game has always worked, but that's not the way your setting needs to work.


Regards,
Bill
 
In system jumps are part of OTU canon too - these are much less than 1 parsec. They are used when a week in jump space is faster than making the trip using the m-drive, e.g. Earth to Jupiter.

Also remember the hex based jump map is an approximation of jump routes not true astronomy - real space is not 2d ;)

Finally allowing high jump no. ships to travel faster if they jump smaller distances definitely changes it from the standard Traveller trope.

it means much faster communication between close worlds - 2 day comm lag rather than 2 week comm lag.
 
Though an artifact of being a game, it IS interesting that System A could be at "one edge" of Hex A, and System B could be at "the other edge" of Hex B, therefore being (technically, theoretically) further apart than 3.26 light years, and yet be considered Jump-1.
 
What I think isn't being understood here is that the mechanics of jump drive in Traveller limit you to one week per jump regardless of distance (assuming your drive can go that distance). Therefore, a drive that goes Jump-2 is already faster than one that goes jump-1. But....

The limitation seems to be inherent in the physics of "The Jump" and the time/space parameters is takes place in rather than some inherent limitation of the drive beyond how far it can go in one jump. It would seem to make sense that a faster drive should go a shorter distance faster, too...but, the nature of the jump itself is the real question because that is the limiting factor - same with not being able to go beyond Jump-6...why not? I dunno, except that I explain it to players as being the same as the speed of light - that closer you get the harder it gets to go faster (much simplified here) so it is as if this is some limiting factor inherent in the nature of the universe that Man Cannot Cross. So to speak.

But then, this is the sort of thing that also makes for good adventures, like, the one of a kind alien super drive that lets the players go 1 parsec per day - at least until it blows some super-nanofuse and turns into slag...or a pirate blasts it and they can get it to work anymore without bathing the drive room with the warm glow of Cherenkov blue and horribly mutating the engineer. Or some Men In Black come take it away from the players eventually and it's never seen again (except by the Area-51 janitor who uses it to power his forklift when he's moving the Ark of the Covenant around so he can dust off the Roswell saucer).

So, is there something in an article, canon, or such that can explain that the basic physical reality of jump space mechanics to help this debate?
 
In system jumps are part of OTU canon too - these are much less than 1 parsec. They are used when a week in jump space is faster than making the trip using the m-drive, e.g. Earth to Jupiter.

I so love these...the guy playing the navigator plotting the in-system jump really sweats when he makes the roll to find out if he got all the decimal points in the right spot to avoid a misjump. Though once the players botched it and misjumped - they spent another week in jump, getting uncomfortably low on rations and power...and then fund they dropped out in the same place they started but just turned around the other direction.

They gave up and just called for a tow and some pizza.

Also remember the hex based jump map is an approximation of jump routes not true astronomy - real space is not 2d ;)

I think this is a hurdle every brighter-than-average Traveller referee has to overcome: the urge to "correct" the Traveller 2-D hex map. But the only logical conclusion is that what you point out and the same referees eventually draw as well - that there are a lot of different kinds of "maps", and they are all draw more or less abstractly in order to impart clear information. SO, the 2D hex map is not a "Astronomical Map", but an "Astrogation Map" showing the jump points relative to each jump point as opposed to stellar information and relationships.

It's entirely possible to have an accurate star map of a subsector (though I'd go insane drawing it) as well as a "cleaner" jump map. The two compliment each other and are not exclusive - they are just illustrating the same info differently because the emphasis for each is different.

A road map is simpler than a geological map of the same area, but they are still covering the same area, and neither is "less realistic".
 
What I think isn't being understood here is that the mechanics of jump drive in Traveller limit you to one week per jump regardless of distance (assuming your drive can go that distance).


Sabre,

Yes, that's one of things Frank didn't understand. He got hung up on the unspoken assumptions regarding the way "time", "speed", and "distance" normally intersect in the real world. Jump dimensions aren't the real world however. ;)

Therefore, a drive that goes Jump-2 is already faster than one that goes jump-1.

Yes. Jump2 is faster than jump1 IF you jump more than one parsec.

It would seem to make sense that a faster drive should go a shorter distance faster, too...

It would make sense if ships using jump drive remained in our dimension. They don't so all the assumptions based on out dimension don't apply.

But then, this is the sort of thing that also makes for good adventures...

They would make for an excellent mcguffins in someone's personal Traveller universe.

So, is there something in an article, canon, or such that can explain that the basic physical reality of jump space mechanics to help this debate?

There is no debate here, Sabre. Frank's assumptions regarding jump drive in Traveller's official setting and jump drive as presented in the Traveller rules are wrong.

Frank is also quite free to adjust, tweak, and otherwise change how jump drive works in his own settings.

Mr. Miller laid out all the basics of jump drive in his essay in GDW's JTAS.


Regards,
Bill
 
Yeah, I know...but I was trying to help the guy out a little. It took a while because I kept getting sidetracked reading the articles and adventures - I loved the Journal almost more than the rules!

So...I found that JTAS #24 (the last one) has the Miller article on jumpspace.

And Challenge #33 has a really interesting article/adventure on alternate drive tech experiments and other ways the Imperium has tried to get around the inherent jump-6/1 week limits to the phenomenon. Some company has worked up an experimental drive that induces a semi-"controlled misjump that might go as far as 36 parsecs in one jump....or off in some random direction x-number of parsecs and they want some guinea pigs, I mean adventurers, to try it out.

Sounds like fun and it was one I'd forgotten about so now I might introduce it into my game.
 
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...same with not being able to go beyond Jump-6...why not?
The answer to that is "Because GDW said so". I must say, however, that I never understood why they said so. It seems to me that the ship construction rules contained all the limitations you'd need: a) You can't build jump-7+ with TL 15, and TL15 is the highest available in the game universe, barring referee fiat. b) Even if you do have access to TL16, 10% per jump number jump fuel imposes a limit. You might be able to squeeze a pilot and very little else into a jump-7 ship (perhaps if you left out the maneuver drive...? Nah, that's a silly idea... ;)), but jump-8 is right out.

And if the referee did introduce an Ancient TL25 ship with extra-dimensional fuel tanks and jump-16, you'd have one doozy of a plot device!


Hans
 
Well, I was pointing out the same thing: that while the Jump-6 limit was an arbitrary device by the game designers it could be rationalized within the game as a possible physical limit imposed by the universe for some reason or another - like the FTL problem.

That's why I was looking for that adventure I found in Challenge about how the drive researchers were looking to overcome what was described as a physical limit somehow due to the physics of the jump could be overcome by trying to deliberately create and somehow control (though just barely) a misjump.

Since misjumping was the only repeatable way the researchers have been able to go beyond the 6-parsec jump limit then it got me thinking along the above lines.

If power (as in fuel) was the only limiting factor then just find an alternate power source (like anti-matter) that doesn't require so much bulk. If the drive capability was the only limit then that would require more work, but it would at least require a lot of work that has already been done as opposed to coming up with some entirely new concept - so it wouldn't be impossible.
 
Wrong, Hans, Given Bk5 rates, J7 is buildable with extrapolation of the JD progression:

1000Td
0020 Bridge
0009 Model 7
0080 JD7
0020 MD1
0070 PP7 (TL15-16)
0070 Fuel P7 x 4wk
0700 Fuel J7
0028 7 Lg SR, crew PNMEEEE
0003 Cargo
========

Worthless, but buildable. Swap for 14 Sm SR, and slap another 14 tons cargo.

Well, actually, makes a great fleet courier.
 
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