OTU Only: Theobromine poisoning

[robject]

I have owned many dogs over the years. They have all eaten chocolate, not one has died or suffered any health problems ever related to chocolate consumption.

I think the effects on dogs are a bit overstated, and the chance of harming many Vargr with the odd chocolate bar is slim to none. Or possibly as often as an ecstasy related death in humans...

The effects as documented are correct, but it still takes a proportionately large amount of chocolate to kill a dog. As in all things, the issue is not just metabolic rate, but also amount ingested per body weight. A dog will absolutely scarf chocolate with reckless abandon, and chocolate (when it's dog-accessible) can be present in amounts unhealthy for them. So the real danger is in unintended and unattended feeding frenzies, and especially for small dogs (the kind I might jokingly describe as "worthless").

A chocolate bar will not kill a Vargr. And, presumably, Vargr have the willpower to resist eating all chocolate within reach.

 

[Drakon]

My plan is to weaponize the theobromine, make an high consentrated form of it that will be sure to mess up any vargr that ingests it. Nuke a planet, get a free chocolate cake.

Even if it does not kill, there is the potential to turn the Vargr into a kind of junkie.

 

[Timerover51]

My plan is to weaponize the theobromine, make an high consentrated form of it that will be sure to mess up any vargr that ingests it. Nuke a planet, get a free chocolate cake.

Even if it does not kill, there is the potential to turn the Vargr into a kind of junkie.

They might behave with it like the Japanese behave with eating the Puffer Fish, or Fugu, seeing if they can get away with eating something extremely deadly, or in the case of Chocolate, sufficiently deadly so that a Vargr that eats a large quantity and survives has something to brag about.

 

[Vladika]

My plan is to weaponize the theobromine, make an high consentrated form of it that will be sure to mess up any vargr that ingests it. Nuke a planet, get a free chocolate cake.

Even if it does not kill, there is the potential to turn the Vargr into a kind of junkie.

Use, not-so-hollow, hollow point bullets.

 

[Lycanorukke]

Consider your ramblings asked for.

Ishan, the main star is M1V, Ninago, the second star in Lemish's system is M2V. I still need to work out whether Lemish has a magnetic field of its own, but Lemish does orbit a gas giant, Vangon, which certainly does have a large magnetic field.

Solar flares might be problematic, considering the tight habitable zone, which means Vangon and Lemish are within .2 AUs of Ishan.

Hmm, M's do calm down a bit with age though. Will think a bit more..though I do have some more ideas I'll flesh out during the next boring meeting and post later. And how close is Lemish to the GG (and what size GG).

What color is Chlorophyll F?

At a guess... (chlorophyll F was only discovered in 2010)

Its absorption range is 690 - 760 nm (720 peak)
The red spectrum is 620 - 750 nm
The Near IR is = 2,500 - 750 nm

So it eats half the red range, and not much else, hence under white light it would probably be a blueish green. However under a M star (usually a reddish orange) it would appear a yellowish orange.

There could be an interesting side effect though - IR night vision devices use the Near IR range to operate, as do IR communicators (eg: remotes). You stick on a pair of IR goggles in a forest and you see almost nothing as the trees 'eat' the IR. Thermographs and the like still work as they use longer IR.

A nice way to catch PC's out when they try to chase a something into a forest. "What problem. We have night vision gear!". Of course the big nasty monsters in the forest have no such problems....

 

[Drakon]

Use, not-so-hollow, hollow point bullets.

Too quick and relatively painless. Nuke my planet, you will suffer. I will see to it.

 

[Drakon]

Hmm, M's do calm down a bit with age though. Will think a bit more..though I do have some more ideas I'll flesh out during the next boring meeting and post later. And how close is Lemish to the GG (and what size GG).

About Jovian size. Size T or 27, about 90,000 miles in diameter.

I am still looking at the orbits, trying to work out the energy balance, because as Vangon eclipses Lemish, AND reflects the light/heat of Ishan onto the near side of Lemish. But roughly I am looking at about 270,000 kilometers center to center for Lemish and Vangon, and about .2 AUs between Ishan and Vangon. (Lemish size 7, 12,200 kilometers diameter. Vangon, size T or 27, 145,000 Kilometers in diamter.) This may change once I get a better idea how to calculate the final temperature better.

At a guess... (chlorophyll F was only discovered in 2010)

Its absorption range is 690 - 760 nm (720 peak)
The red spectrum is 620 - 750 nm
The Near IR is = 2,500 - 750 nm

So it eats half the red range, and not much else, hence under white light it would probably be a blueish green. However under a M star (usually a reddish orange) it would appear a yellowish orange.

Actually my understanding is that even though we refer to them as red stars, and it has a lower surface temperature than the sun, a 3600 degree object will still be "white hot".

But I like this idea, and it would give Lemish an other worldly look. Blue green trees, bushes and grasses would look just enough odd.

There could be an interesting side effect though - IR night vision devices use the Near IR range to operate, as do IR communicators (eg: remotes). You stick on a pair of IR goggles in a forest and you see almost nothing as the trees 'eat' the IR. Thermographs and the like still work as they use longer IR.

A nice way to catch PC's out when they try to chase a something into a forest. "What problem. We have night vision gear!". Of course the big nasty monsters in the forest have no such problems....

<insert approving manical laughter> I like how you think :devil:

 

[Drakon]

They might behave with it like the Japanese behave with eating the Puffer Fish, or Fugu, seeing if they can get away with eating something extremely deadly, or in the case of Chocolate, sufficiently deadly so that a Vargr that eats a large quantity and survives has something to brag about.

Thereby encouraging other Vargr to tempt fate. As long as they pay for the priviledge of almost dying, and do so repeatedly, I would be relatively happy with that.

It is possible that theobromine may be addictive to Vargr, like cocaine. If it is, well, that can lead to all sorts of interesting possibilities.

 

[Timerover51]

Thereby encouraging other Vargr to tempt fate. As long as they pay for the priviledge of almost dying, and do so repeatedly, I would be relatively happy with that.

It is possible that theobromine may be addictive to Vargr, like cocaine. If it is, well, that can lead to all sorts of interesting possibilities.

Since you appear to be thinking quite nasty, would you want me to get out my biological warfare stuff and see what nastiness I can come up with. The Vargr should be highly susceptible to the Canine Distemper Virus, which is quite communicable, as that is a very recent development. Depending on how meat-eating they are, seeding some planets with anthrax or the equivalent should also prove productive. I figure that for the Vargr to survive originally, the Ancients would have had to do some terraforming of the home planet and also transplant some additional animal life. Assuming that they are more omnivore than carnivore, attacking the agriculture of Vargr worlds might also be possible. I know that domestic dogs here love things like carrots and broccoli, and dog biscuits have considerable grain in them. Probably just need to seed one or two Vargr planets and let natural dispersion take its course. Hmmm, Rabies might be considered as well. There are quite a few possible vectors for that, as well as Canine Distemper.

 

[Lycanorukke]

Consider your ramblings asked for.

As you wish.....

*****
Pulled up the Lemish trade data - A79568C-C Ag Ni Cp and your notes

An ‘Ag’ world with a dense atmosphere and a taint. And with chocolate plants as well.

Primary Star: M1V, the companion M2 is a bit far away to make a difference so I’ll ignore it.
Planet is a GG (Jupe size) with Lemish in orbit around it.

M stars are flare happy when young, so well make the star an old one. This also means it rotates slower around its axis. IIRC I read anything longer than a month is a nice boring star as the magnetic fields don’t entangle so much.

GG orbits star at 0.2 au (30Mkms). Jupe size/mass planet. M1V = 50% solar mass
So GG orbits star ~ 46. days
Lemish orbits GG at 21 hours or so.

Stellar effects:

Okay, the GG rotates its magnetic field interacts with the massive sun creating ‘magnetic tornados’ (severely twisted field magnetic lines) on the solar surface (similar to the storms on Jupiter from Io). These are normally small and inconsequential as the planet moves on fairly quickly and the star is passive – though there are disturbances as the GG moves across the face of the star (like a wake). However if the magnetic tornado hits an existing sunspot the field lines of the sunspot and planet snap back and you get a small flare (about the size of the GG). These are easy deflected by the GGs magnetosphere.

Now if you have Lemish in the right spot (aka between the sun and the GG, its own magnetic field enhances the effect and you get a bigger ‘snap’. A portion of the flare can leak through the protective magnetosphere via a magnetic flux tunnel, creating spectacular auroras, an enhanced energy input (maybe even some UV), and a slight problem with satellites. The dense atmosphere shields from most of the cosmic radiation associate with the flare.

And this enhanced energy input has a booting effect on local flora. How often/long this happens is your choice.

Planet Ag Rating:
The reason it’s an Ag planet so close to the star is a side effect of the moon the next obit in to the GG. Similar to Io it expels vast amounts or organic/inorganic materials in volcanic events. Due to vagarities of its orbit, gravity and magnetic this mater quietly rains down as space dust onto Lemish. Over the millennia this accumulation of volcanic material turned into very rich proto-soil. (Volcanic ash can be an excellent plant nutrient). Material still slowly rains down on Lemish so there is no immediate danger of soil depletion. This light rain of volcanic dust ocassionally comes in a 'clumps'. Not solid but a thick enough dust to have an effect on people respitatory systems (and hence the taint)

Flora:
The flora is based on chlorophyll D and F (‘red’ chlorophyll). Some terran plants have been geneered to work in this environment, but others haven’t. The Coca plant didn’t, so after experimentation they grafted the Caco pods to a local plant. This worked and had an unusual side effect – the plant produced caffeine like analogues (to fend off the local herbivores) and this input boosted the ‘flavour’ of the Caco. Hence a stronger flavored chocolate. During flares the native tree goes into overdrive (the enhanced light triggers rapid growth) and the resulting saturation of the Caco pods results in extremely yummy chocolate.


But now the dangers...

Fauna:
Lurking in the chocolate forests are creatures who you don’t want to meet. Amphibious in nature, they have a symbiotic relationship with a form of heat based cyanobacteria (blue green algae) they store in internal pouches. Their skins are a dark brown colour to better absorb heat, and excess heat not used by the bacteria is vented by their hosts breathing. About the size of a small cat people call them ‘frogs’ due to their flabby appearance and croaking vocalizations.

Normally they are quite passive, feeding on the local tree, which is processed by the algae in their interior with the resultant products providing nutrients to the ‘frog’. However when humans started grafting Caco to the trees problem happened. The theobromine compounds react badly with the cynanobacteria, and the compounds increase the aggressiveness significantly, in addition to providing a stimulant function in some ways close to a weak combat drug. These effects are enhanced during a flare event. The frogs are often harvested for this pharmaceutical quality, and ‘frog juice’ is a common narcotic. A cut open 'frog' leaks the greenish goo from its interior.

Whilst the ‘frog’ can’t hurt a human directly, the cynaobacteria in its system and on its skin cause a toxic effect in mammals. The effect hyper stimulates nerves, causing rictus and seizures. It is severe and death is usually the result. Post mortem, the victims muscles lock in place, giving them a horrified expression made only the more macabre with the ‘frogs’ nibbling on them.

What do these horrible creatures look like…?

Lemish Frogs

So sue me .
The day was almost over and I was bored. Luckily I didn't mention the forest bears

 

[rancke]

I'm not sure that initializing biological warfare against a species with technology every bit as good as your own is a long-term winner.


Hans

 

[Drakon]

I'm not sure that initializing biological warfare against a species with technology every bit as good as your own is a long-term winner.


Hans

It won't be warfare, it will be vengence. If the Vargr come down and slaughter a good chunk of the Lemishian population, that gives the government, what survives of it, the right, if not the duty, to revenge that atrocity by any means necessary.

But the problem with full out bio warfare is that we will have innocent, if not valuable, Imperial Vargrs on Lemish. Bioweapons are outlawed because they can't really be aimed well. The problem is the non-Imperial Vargr, not Vargr in general.

Besides, the thing about selling drugs to the enemy is there is a bit of satisfying irony in letting him pay for his destruction.

 

[rancke]

It won't be warfare, it will be vengence.

It's still a potentially disastrous road to start down. It's not the justification I question but the possible consequences.


Hans

 

[Drakon]

Great post clipped for brevity.

Planet Ag Rating:
The reason it’s an Ag planet so close to the star is a side effect of the moon the next obit in to the GG. Similar to Io it expels vast amounts or organic/inorganic materials in volcanic events. Due to vagarities of its orbit, gravity and magnetic this mater quietly rains down as space dust onto Lemish. Over the millennia this accumulation of volcanic material turned into very rich proto-soil. (Volcanic ash can be an excellent plant nutrient). Material still slowly rains down on Lemish so there is no immediate danger of soil depletion. This light rain of volcanic dust ocassionally comes in a 'clumps'. Not solid but a thick enough dust to have an effect on people respitatory systems (and hence the taint)

There is no inner moon of Vangon, however volcanic ash can from Lemish itself. Granted the rules specifically state that the world numbers do not include every little rock, it seems that such a body would be significant.

Other than that, I love this idea.

Normally they are quite passive, feeding on the local tree, which is processed by the algae in their interior with the resultant products providing nutrients to the ‘frog’. However when humans started grafting Caco to the trees problem happened. The theobromine compounds react badly with the cynanobacteria, and the compounds increase the aggressiveness significantly, in addition to providing a stimulant function in some ways close to a weak combat drug. These effects are enhanced during a flare event. The frogs are often harvested for this pharmaceutical quality, and ‘frog juice’ is a common narcotic. A cut open 'frog' leaks the greenish goo from its interior.

Hmmmm, this could be a whole other product. Is this mostly consentrated theobromine?

Frog Juice.

Lemish Frogs

So sue me .

Suing just feeds lawyers. Want some chocolate?

 

[Lycanorukke]

There is no inner moon of Vangon, however volcanic ash can from Lemish itself. Granted the rules specifically state that the world numbers do not include every little rock, it seems that such a body would be significant.

Hmm, how about a thin ring system? Around the GG - given it is an old system the rock would have been well ground up by now making a 'dust ring'

Hmmmm, this could be a whole other product. Is this mostly consentrated theobromine?

A mix of various '-ine' compunds (benzene rings with nitrogen substitution). In addition to theobromine, throw in some dextroamphetamine (go pills), Mescaline (similiar effects to LSD), Theophylline (similiar to caffiene), and Phencyclidine (PCP). So you take raw 'frog juice' and become strong, immune to pain, hyperactive, very aggressive, and completely loopy. The drawback is the effect of a very good chance of experienceing the effect of 'dead' at the end of your binge. Wether death is because you got a bad batch (that contained cyanide from the bacteria), suffered a heart siezure (stimulant OD), or got shot by your friends after you mistook them for man eating toadstools doesn't overly matter. Good "Juicers" (those who refine the product to make it moderately safer to use) are in high demand - by both legal and illegal producers.

On edit: I am of course making this up on the fly. Not a chemist or astrophysicist so there are probablly a million things wrong with it.

 

[Timerover51]

It won't be warfare, it will be vengence. If the Vargr come down and slaughter a good chunk of the Lemishian population, that gives the government, what survives of it, the right, if not the duty, to revenge that atrocity by any means necessary.

But the problem with full out bio warfare is that we will have innocent, if not valuable, Imperial Vargrs on Lemish. Bioweapons are outlawed because they can't really be aimed well. The problem is the non-Imperial Vargr, not Vargr in general.

Besides, the thing about selling drugs to the enemy is there is a bit of satisfying irony in letting him pay for his destruction.

Hmm, 'tis a pity. For the Canine Distemper Virus you could inoculate the Imperial Vargr, but that sort of gives away who set off the virus elsewhere.

Okay to make up some Butyl Mercaptan bombs then? That is similar to Skunk Spray, and would be very effective on making any Vargr that smells it want to run the other way. Be great to contaminate their equipment, as if we humans think that it smells bad, to a canine it is about 10,000 times worse.

 

[SpaceBadger]

Okay to make up some Butyl Mercaptan bombs then? That is similar to Skunk Spray, and would be very effective on making any Vargr that smells it want to run the other way. Be great to contaminate their equipment, as if we humans think that it smells bad, to a canine it is about 10,000 times worse.

Ah, but what smells good or bad to a canine may vary from human judgment. Note the habit of dogs rolling around on dead animals or other smelly substances they find in the woods, and seeming to be less affected by actual skunk spray than the humans who must wash them with tomato juice.

 

[esampson]

Why does this thread cause me to imagine a specialist unit of the Lemish Royal Marines?

Tasked with handling operations of vengeance and retribution against non-Imperial Vargr their standard equipment consists of TL-12 body armor decorated with the Baronial crest of Lemish and a rolled up newspaper. The motto for their unit states "Non! Malum Canis! Malum Malum Canis!"

 

[mike wightman]

Vargr are not dogs.

They are genetically uplifted dire wolves - think crinos form werewolf with TL15.

They have had 300,000 years of divergent evolution from terrestrial canine stock.

While I do not doubt you could tailor bio-weapons, chemical weapons or the like, the TL15 Vargr scientists are perfectly capable of doing the same to humans.

Do you really want to start a no holds bared, no rules of war conflict with such opponents?

Just send a fleet to blanket bomb a few of their worlds with nukes, or launch a few near c rocks and be done with it.

But be prepared for the reprisals.

 

[esampson]

Vargr are not dogs.

They are genetically uplifted dire wolves - think crinos form werewolf with TL15. . .

While Vargr are not descended from dogs they aren't anything like Crinos form Garou, either. Your typical Vargr is just a hair's breadth over 5' tall and a little bit over 130 lbs (Alien Module 3, pg. 2). While it is true that dire wolves were larger than regular wolves they weren't that much larger and regular wolves are significantly smaller than modern people. Dire wolves typically ranged from 50-80 kg, so on the large end of the scale they were only the size of an average modern day man.

In short, while they lived during the period of megafauna there was nothing truly 'mega' about them and the images that people have of pony sized dire wolves is just Hollywood hyperbole.