The Vargr CF Question

[Border Reiver]

I came across this on the SJG Forums eith regards 4e rules.

Quick question for 4e Vargr characters...

Gvegh and Ovaghoun are identified in GT Nobles (p. 96) as separate Vargr languages and "cultures." Are these different enough that they would count as separate CFs in the 4e rules? It sounds like they would, but I was wondering what people thought. Thanks.

A good question and deserving of an answer. Unfortunately the response from one of SJG's Men in Black is particularly poor. As I am permabanned from SJG's Forums (for good reasons and it was so so worth it

) I cannot counter the statements there but will raise it here.

The MiB replied;

Using the example of "Western" CF from Basic (covering Europe, Canada, USA, Australia, and NZ, I believe), I'd say that since one CF can cover multiple countries (and thus multiple Languages), that Vargr would be one CF, but separate Languages.

To me in Traveller terms is the equivalent of calling Humaniti a singular monolithic CF. Tosh and pish to paraphrase the bard. The extents in canon is divided into cultural regions based on racial/language distinctions.

As well as Gvegh and Ovaghoun there are Aekhu, Logaksu, Urzaeng, Suedzuk, Irilitok. Each could be considered in game terms as a separate CF, each region shares language similarities, ethnic similarities and cultural values.

They are not homogenous (they 're Vargr for fek sake). Writing off Gvegh as a language is just highlighting a lack of research. The Gvegh cultural region includes the related languages of Knithnour and Taeksu, not just Gvegh.

My advice is yes to separate CF's.

Anyone that wishes to quote me in the appropriate thread over there is more than welcome.

 

[tjoneslo]

I see no reason why anyone should be your proxy on a forum from which were you banned, and you got yourself banned deliberately.

That being said, There is a long thread on the Pyramid 4E boards about CFs. One of the rules lawyers there pointed out that the Cultural Adaptability (all earth cultures) advantage cost 10 points. Therefore there must be at least 10-12 earth cultures, or else the advantage is not worth it (no player would take it).

The list that was arrived at was divided along both geographic lines and language lines. That is, while language would divide some CF, it was not the only indicator. Cultures need the inidviduals to interact and on a regular basis. And are therefore linked by geography, even if they aren't by language.

For campaigns outside of modern day earth you can either take the rule lawyer approach and define 10-15 CFs for the campaign, letting the player select a few or the Cultural Adapability point hack.

In Traveller you could argue, based upon the level of trade IYTU, that each world is it's own CF, and that highly populated worlds may have several CFs. (Say Pop Code - 1d6, miniumum 1). Given the highly fragmented nature of the Vargr, that there are many, many Vargr CFs, but once you have one, the penalty for the others is only -1 or -2 rather than the default of -3.

 

[Border Reiver]

Hey I wasn't asking for a proxy, got enough sock puppets available with different IP addresses that I could post there quite happily. I won't because I'm banned and it is unfair to piss the mods around over there (they seem to have a hard enough time as it is

Back to the point, yes you could argue for each world but not because of the fragmented nature of Vargr. They are no more fragmented than Humaniti, they're fragmented nature reflects in their acceptance of change.

But as cultures like humans there are very distinct groupings. The goverments and polities within these groupings may be changable and even at odds with each other but they fit the CF framework of geographic/language family and social lines. They are listed in DGP's Vilani & Vargr along with a distribution map.

So perhaps given the nature of the Traveller universe the Cultural Adaptability advantage needs modification.

Imperial space has its own cultural regions, again based on race but the culture is not exclusive to one race alone. Yet other areas are hugely homogenous in culture, K'kree and Zhodani for example. I just think culture in Traveller needs to be re-examined for GURPS.

 

[tjoneslo]

The CF rules in GURPS are a big hammer, meant to dramatically illustrate that you are no longer in Kansas. The downside is the CF rules are very granular and it is easy to find border areas where you can have strong arguments about should group A take the CF penalty, even though you know the Culture of group B.

For Example, from real life, the Japanese and Chinese share iconography for their language, geography, and a lot of other cultural ideas. So should they share the same culture or not? Arguments can be made either way under the GURPS CF rules.

Some of this is campaign specific as well. Were I running a campaign in, say Dark Nebula sector (on the border of the Solomani and Aslan), I'd probably give a generic "Vargr" CF, but a dozen or more Aslan ones. But in the Ley sector I'd have two or three Vargr CFs, and the generic "Aslan" CF.

This discussion, and the one on the Pyramid boards, point up the fact that the CF rules in the GURPS books are lacking. They really need clearer descriptions of what constitutes a culture and at least one worked example. GURPS Banestorm may have set of examples.

 

[Border Reiver]

Thanks, big help.

I think a shoot from the hip style is needed here. As you say, location of a campaign could help derive whether an Alien CF is generic or multicultural as much as canon.

I think it may be time for a playtest. See what others think.

 

[tjoneslo]

For what it's worth, I agree with the MIB. In a generic Traveller campaign there should be only one Vargr CF. The others would be Zhodani, Solomani, Imperial, Aslan, Hiver, and K'Kree.

The discussion in GT:Nobles points up the border between cultures. As the book says: "... with the Vilani-influenced Ovaghoun than with the "wild" Gvegh." This implies that the Ovaghoun is a cross border blended culture, rather than a distinct culture like either the Vilani or the Gvegh.