The Universe, Take 2

[princelian]

I, too, was greatly enjoying the discussion about the universe, and I happily invite anyone to disagree with any of the imagining I'll be doing on this thread.

I'm not out to prove anything; I'm not out to point fingers at ANYONE; I'm not out say that one way of looking at the universe, be it quantum mechanics, Newtonian physics, or the current flavor of hyperspatial physics is better than any other.

That being said, please leave personal matters and disagreements off this version of the thread. Please.

What I want to do with this thread is to learn if there are any of you who have some ideas about what the "expanding ball o' universe" implies for hyperspatial mechanics in Traveller. Could something about this giant ball with the physical universe paper macheed (sp?) to the outside have implications for either N- or J-space maneuvering?

And what is the nature, again, in Traveller adventure terms, of the inside of that sphere? Could it lead to alternate N-space/physical dimensions that are "paper macheed" to layers of that sphere (if its structure is layers as is our planet)?

How does it interact with what we perceive as the normal three_plus_time dimensions? Are there regions where space/time curves out- or in-ward and the barrier between the outside (N-space) and the inside (J-space) is stronger (outward curvature) or weaker (inward curvature)?

Could these be plotted by sufficiently advanced technology to allow jumps in more unusual circumstances, or jumps that don't obey the normal laws of Traveller jumpspace?

 

[RainOfSteel]

From what I have read in Brian Green's The Fabric of the Cosmos, the mounting evidence is that there is no way for matter and most energy to travel faster than the speed of light. Only photons may travel the speed of light (or perhaps another massless particle).

Quantum mechanics does state that through "entaglement", information does appear to propagate infinitely and instantly across the universe, but there also appears to be no way of making use of that information.

The only impact of this on the OTU as far as I can see would be to negate the Jump Drive, but we can't have that so that Jump Drive remains intact and functional.

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I have also seen recent news articles (in the last year), about a scientist with a supposedly revolutionary idea about how to use powerful magnetic fields to create a propulsion system capable of enormous velocities (possibly FTL), but until that system gets tested, if ever, I sort of classify it off in the realm of "that would be cool but I'm not expecting anything".

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You should also check-out Jump 101, parts 1-6 and a supplement.

 

[aramis]

My preferred method is simple non-consideration. In Traveller, what lies beyond the known universe is no more knowable than in the Real World.

Y'see, even at Infinite J6 range (robot crew, AM PP and JD, TL21 or so, ala Annic Nova/MT Rules), you can only make (without some major accident) 312 Pc/year over light. ≅1017 C. That means that making inroads into astronomy is negligible (but important) for research purposes, but isn't going to do a whole lot for extragalactic studies.

I't possible for such a ship to get 6 times as far, but not bloody likely... at least in the OTU as defined in the MT rules.

Heck, at that speed, even the edge of the galaxy is a rough bit.

One could readily set up such a ship under the MT rules (No other has that high a TL set), and possibly build one capable of reaching the LMC... but we'd be talking a century-long mission, IIRC.

So, the "Beyond the edge" doesn't matter much to MTU, nor the OTU.

The other side of the coin, the inside of the "expanding shell" doesn't matter much, either, since we've already got a vague definition for it in Traveller terms... J-Space.

Now, one of the things put forth in the RW for the acceleration is not the "expansion of the universe" but random quantum-predicted particle anti-particle creation and elimination... this creates light, albeit tiny, and that light exerts a tiny pressure. But, over centuries, that can add up... the more empty space, the more random energy in between objects... hence acceleration.

 

[Icosahedron]

Originally posted by princelian:
I, too, was greatly enjoying the discussion about the universe, and I happily invite anyone to disagree with any of the imagining I'll be doing on this thread.

I'm not out to prove anything; I'm not out to point fingers at ANYONE; I'm not out say that one way of looking at the universe, be it quantum mechanics, Newtonian physics, or the current flavor of hyperspatial physics is better than any other.

That being said, please leave personal matters and disagreements off this version of the thread. Please.

What I want to do with this thread is to learn if there are any of you who have some ideas about what the "expanding ball o' universe" implies for hyperspatial mechanics in Traveller. Could something about this giant ball with the physical universe paper macheed (sp?) to the outside have implications for either N- or J-space maneuvering?

And what is the nature, again, in Traveller adventure terms, of the inside of that sphere? Could it lead to alternate N-space/physical dimensions that are "paper macheed" to layers of that sphere (if its structure is layers as is our planet)?

How does it interact with what we perceive as the normal three_plus_time dimensions? Are there regions where space/time curves out- or in-ward and the barrier between the outside (N-space) and the inside (J-space) is stronger (outward curvature) or weaker (inward curvature)?

Could these be plotted by sufficiently advanced technology to allow jumps in more unusual circumstances, or jumps that don't obey the normal laws of Traveller jumpspace?

The picture I posted of our universe plastered on the outside of a super-sphere should not be taken literally, it is just a simple analogy that takes you just one step closer to a reality that our tiny human minds may never fully understand. There is another idea (this word is used in a layman's tems to answer a layman's question) that a saddle is a better analogy than a sphere, depending on the amount of dark matter in the universe. However, a sphere is a clearer concept for most people to grasp and it answered the original question - just don't get too hooked on it.

In that analogy, Space is the surface and Time is ALL radial directions. Inside is Past and outside is Future. different 'skins of the onion' would therefore represent different periods of the past, and I'm not sure that Jumping would be represented by 'burrowing through' the 'sphere' at all. At that point the simple analogy breaks down. I don't think you could take shortcuts through space by going back in time. Or forward. J-space would probably be a dimension that is simply not represented in this analogy.
IRL there is AFAWK no way of travelling faster than light, so whatever you decide the mechanics of Jump Space should be is entirely up to you IYTU(or the Canon, if you subscribe to the OTU).
Have fun and don't get too bogged down in reality. FTL travel works any way you say it does. It's a game - enjoy.

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi princelian !

Thats a tough question.
Actually we know the exact nature of the universe as well as the nature of jumpspace

So we have to think about the implications of one vage thing to another....

At least this provides enough room for interpretation/speculation.

Well, in MTU the implications are non, meaning the astronomical model has no impact on anything in my gaming universe. The target scales are just too different.

E.g. IMTU jumpspace is another geometrical dimension subject to a long range spacetime-effect created by the inner rotation of milkyways central super black hole (bla bla bla).
This idea was inspired by the frame-dragging effect around rotating black hole.
But even in this degree it is a rather insignificant local effect in this universe.

regards,

TE

 

[sid6.7]

what i want to know is if everyone thinks
there is an "edge" of the universe whats
beyond that? there has to be "something"
there....even if there are no stars
and planets...it would be just empty
space right?...if there is something
that you run into and go splat or rebound
off of...to me that would mean there is
something more...for the "shield" would
have to some kind of physical structure.
trying to make something finite when its
infinite is futile yes? like numbers
surely there are some that dont believe
there is a maximum number right? there
maybe a maximum number that a person can
comprehend...but that doesnt mean there
arent greater numbers....

 

[sid6.7]

Originally posted by Icosahedron:
IRL there is AFAWK no way of travelling faster than light, so whatever you decide the mechanics of Jump Space should be is entirely up to you IYTU(or the Canon, if you subscribe to the OTU).
Have fun and don't get too bogged down in reality. FTL travel works any way you say it does. It's a game - enjoy.

wow i didnt relieze you were here too!
howdy DM/GM! maybe the universe is finite..

so can thought travel faster then light?

 

[ravells]

I think the officical version about J-Drives is something along the lines of 'they work, but we don't know why they work.'

For me it's better left as a mystery. When Lucas tried to give the Force a pseudo science grounding (miclorians?)it didn't do much for the story!

I can just about get my head around more than 4 dimensions. I still find it very difficult to get my head around the concept of 'nothing' - a (place?) where even space nor time do not exist.

Ravs

 

[TheEngineer]

Sid6.7, dont ask such questions !
They cost senity points

Seriously, space is mostly considered to be open/infinite but of limited volume.
The typical model with one dimesion less for that is that sphere surface, which has no edge but a limited area.
So, for a 3(4) dimensional being there is (perhaps) no physical border.
But honestly I have the feeling, that to believe there are just 3(4) dimensions (those which we can experience) would be quite narrow-minded.
And as the string theories openen it up to 11+ dimesions everything is possible again.

But maybe just to complicate to fit in my 3D brain

As I said, take care for senity

TE

 

[princelian]

Icosahedron posted:

The picture I posted of our universe plastered on the outside of a super-sphere should not be taken literally, it is just a simple analogy that takes you just one step closer to a reality that our tiny human minds may never fully understand.

I know that. However, I can take that analogy and make it "fact" for my Traveller campaign by handwaving, and then have it affect things if I want them to.

Just like in a fantasy campaign, if bronze is a metal mined from the bones of dead gods and not an alloy of copper and tin, then that's how it is. (That is how it is in RuneQuest, incidentally. In fact, in RQ, you CAN'T alloy copper and tin - they're both runemetals and will not combine.)

Anyhow, the hard science purists are probably all wincing, but the point is that I could create a storyline that takes advantage of the analogy by assuming that it's close enough to fact for gamemaster work.

 

[archhealer]

i thought part of the mythos of the J-Drive was that it didn't actually achieve FTL travel; nothing travelled faster than light, or even all that fast, in J-space. It was more like a prolonged teleportation. So, in theory, perhaps the FTL rules aren't being broken at all (Of course, that brings into question what laws of physics ARE being broken; J-Travel just seems too good to be true).

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by sid6.7:
what i want to know is if everyone thinks
there is an "edge" of the universe whats
beyond that? there has to be "something"
there....even if there are no stars
and planets...it would be just empty
space right

After the Big Bang, space itself was smaller than it is now.

Current thoughts are that a very short fraction of an instant after time 0, space itself grew vastly larger at titantic speeds, and this idea is called "inflation". It is an idea that revolutionized cosmological thought when Alan Guth introduced it in the late 70s.

This does not violate general relativity, as space itself is quite capable of expanding at huge multiples of the speed of light.

But that is exactly the point, space is expanding. Where that space isn't you can't go.

Most cosmologists/astrophysicists believe there is no locatable edge, and that it would be extremely difficult to locate the point of the big bang itself.

One of the reasons it is so hard to determine the exact shape of the universe (space-time shape, here) in relation to where it all started is that the entire observeable universe, all of it that we can see with the best telescope, the Hubble, is so tiny a fraction of the actual whole that studying it to find the shape of space is like staring face down at the sand on a beach and trying to determine the shape of the Earth from seeing just one grain of sand.

 

[princelian]

And we're back to the beach of my primitive tribe again.

(Just a reminder that insofar as the big bad universe is concerned, we are those ignorant savages.)

 

[sid6.7]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:


But that is exactly the point, space is expanding. Where that space isn't you can't go.

wow..i think i actually inderstand this...
i think i understand what people are trying
to say now from the sceince side anyways...
your not just talking the planets expanding
outwards your talking about the very fabric
of space itself moving outwards?...right?
at least for the "you can't go" where its
not part...i guess i didnt releize the
whole story of "big bang"...

im more of the belief that the fabric is
static but infinite, but yes planets
and such are moving "/around/outwards"...

thanks for a better clarifcation....

 

[princelian]

No, the fabric is not static, at least according to current theory. It is bent, curved, even stretched by matter and energy, the simplest analogy being that space is a big sheet of black cloth and planets and stars are balls on its surface. Whereever they are, space curves "downward," and draws other balls toward them if the curvature (the depression made by the ball) is big enough.

The expansion we've been talking about is somewhat (but not entirely) analagous to that sheet being made of elastic material and it keeps getting stretched in all directions so the balls are further and further apart.

Hmm....using that analogy... as the universe expands and the galaxies get further and further apart, does the gravitational constant get smaller because space is under more and more tension? And does this tension eventually force space to spring back inward (or rupture)?

More pondering is needed.

 

[sid6.7]

well i have heard that before that everything
will fall back to a center point(big bang spot?)
so that means even after the bang there was
still "something left" there thats still
exerting gravity of some sort on the whole shebang? right?

cuase now if there is "nothing" at the
center there would be nothing to draw
it back given the general law of gravity
or is there another law i am missing?...

 

[TheEngineer]

Really, no one knows that, but I guess You will find any possible speculation about that out there.
But anyway, your definition "something left" should be always right

In the extreme moments of a bigbang its likely, that physics as we know it today were not valid (well, its had to be different, or the whole show could not have happened as it seems to had happened).

Besides, obviously there was no center of the bigbang, just as there is no center of the known universe today.
Theoretically the pure existence of matter of energy inside a volume of space motivates its contraction (even without a contraction center), but appearently there is another unknown "force", which increases universe expansion rate and perhaps someday everything gets ripped apart....weird world.

 

[signless]

Okey dokey. Since I am now officially drunk with power and mad with success after successfully acing my GRE's, I submit the following for your mental mastication (note the use of several "second-semester" words there, eh?)

Every time a jump is made, the bubble which surrounds the ship actually lifts it above and beyond the universe itself. As the bubble "evaporates" and a ship re-appears in normal space, microcosmic bits of flotsam and jetsam are blown free into that utter void outside the borders of our current universe.

These tiny little quantum packets suddenly find themselves in a new setting...one which possesses none of the constraints of the "old" universe. No longer bound by the laws of physics, they liberate their energy in a gigantic release of information, and shazam!...the birth of a "new" universe.

This could be a cool, although heretical, explanation of how Grandfather created "pocket" universes. The utter and complete lack of any coherent information in such a vast emptiness could also explain some aspects of "jump sickness".

Anyhow....time for some more Mexican cough syrup and maraschino cherries!

 

[TheEngineer]

Sounds completely logical.....

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by sid6.7:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
But that is exactly the point, space is expanding. Where that space isn't you can't go.

your not just talking the planets expanding
outwards your talking about the very fabric
of space itself moving outwards?...right?
</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, that's exactly it.

The expansion of space is why so many objects in all directions appear to all be moving away from each other.

Only a few objects are actually headed toward each other despite the expansion of space. Current estimates show that the Milky Way and Andromeda are headed for a collision quite some distant time from now (I forget the exact number of years). Their vectors towards each other overcomes the vector of the expansion of space that is actually pushing both galaxies away from each other.

For quite some time cosmolologists have wondered if the rate at which space was expanding was declining, staying the same, or accelerating.

A few years ago, they were finally able to come to the conclusion that it was accelerating.

This means that the universe will not end in a "Big Crunch" ("as far as is currently known") because space's expansion will beat gravity in the end. This news made all the papers a few years back.

Originally posted by sid6.7:
at least for the "you can't go" where its
not part...i guess i didnt releize the
whole story of "big bang"...

If gravity was going to beat the expansion of space, then in some unimaginably distant future, when space was much smaller once more and the end of all was imminent, I personally believe that you would still have great difficulty in determining the center of the universe because of all the matter and energy collected into such a small volume would make astronomy quite difficult. This assumes you could survive the conditions of the then-largely collapsed universe. And you still couldn't find the "edges". Not even at some crazily small fraction of an instant before the end. (At that point you'd be Carl Sagan's famous space-ship of the imagination, because nothing we can conceive of today could survive in those conditions.)