The Solomani plague

[Carlobrand]

Oh dear.

I was doing a bit of looking, came across this:

"...no animal on Vland has as close a relationship to a human as a human has to a lobster or even to an oak tree ... there were few human diseases ... even surgery was largely freed from the danger of infection. ..."

Now, stop for a minute and consider the impact of European contact on Native Americans, the Aborigine, the Pacific island populations. Now imagine: Sol Terrans first contact with the Vilani, and somebody sneezes...

So here we have the classic tale: the vibrant and innovative Terrans run into the intensely conservative and corrupt Vilani and, over the coming centuries, overwhelm and conquer their empire. Except: the Terrans by that point had certainly made strides in eliminating many of the diseases that crushed AmerInd, Aborigine, and Pacific Island populations, but there would be diseases that gave them more trouble, especially those that were inconvenient but less harmful, that therefore attracted less effort at eradication. And: the Vilani for all their advancement had little to prepare them for epidemic disease. Whatever diseases they had were whatever had been brought with them 300,000 years ago and whatever had evolved among them since - none of those with a history of bouncing back and forth between human and nonhuman hosts, rapidly mutating into new strains.

The Vilani had no experience of the flu.

One wonders that this is not mentioned in canon. One wonders whether the Vilani, with no experience of flu or other common Terran bugs and a medical system that had to be weak on epidemiology and infection control, experienced something akin to the 1918 flu epidemic, sweeping through them world-by-world and weakening them, distracting them at the moment when the Terrans were beginning their expansion. The Terran campaign to conquer Vilani space may have begun when the first Terran shook a Vilani hand.

 

[epicenter00]

The whole germs part of guns, germs, and steel is discussed in G:T's Interstellar Wars.

It's sort of a tired trope to me, but they did expand on it and it plays out exactly as you might imagine.

 

[Timerover51]

Aside from the various flu viruses, you still have a large reservoir of things like Chicken Pox, which for an adult is serious, measles, whooping cough, and diphtheria, not counting things like the Ebola virus. Those all were a factor in decimating the native populations in the New World and Oceania.

 

[aramis]

The Vilani had no experience of the flu.

One wonders that this is not mentioned in canon.

But it is. The plage of Duskir.

 

[Carlobrand]

But it is. The plage of Duskir.

Wiki says that's out of the Traveller's Digest. Sadly, I have none of those.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Except: the Terrans by that point had certainly made strides in eliminating many of the diseases...

Are they eliminated? Or are we just immune to them through vaccinations, like Polio? Some germ could be sitting on a cargo container right next to you and you would never know it and your body wouldn't care if you've been made immune.

 

[rancke]

Wiki says that's out of the Traveller's Digest. Sadly, I have none of those.

The subject is mentioned in GT:Rim of Fire and in GT:Interstellar Wars, although Duskir himself is not.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

The subject is mentioned in GT:Rim of Fire and in GT:Interstellar Wars, although Duskir himself is not.


Hans

Phuey! 0 for 3. Alas.

 

[Enoki]

I'd think this depends heavily on Vilani genetics. If their DNA was levo versus dextro (ie., left versus right handed) it could account for this. If they had what today is being called XNA (xeno nucleic acid) compounded on something other than Ribo based amino acids (there are at least six others now identified) then it would be absolutely possible that they could not suffer infection from human contact.

Have fun :devil:

 

[rancke]

I'd think this depends heavily on Vilani genetics. If their DNA was levo versus dextro (ie., left versus right handed) it could account for this. If they had what today is being called XNA (xeno nucleic acid) compounded on something other than Ribo based amino acids (there are at least six others now identified) then it would be absolutely possible that they could not suffer infection from human contact.

The Vilani are Homo sapiens. Fully interfertile with Solomani. And the whole point of the Interstellar Wars plagues is that they are vulnerable to infections carried by Terrans.

Presumably the Vilani had experienced infections before when meeting other human races, but even if they didn't understand biology very well, purely mechanical solutions like quarantine measures must have been enough to keep them under control. But quarantine measures are hard to implement when you are being invaded. And it's implied that the Terran infections were a lot more virulent than anything the Vilani had encountered before.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Now, stop for a minute and consider the impact of European contact on Native Americans, the Aborigine, the Pacific island populations. Now imagine: Sol Terrans first contact with the Vilani, and somebody sneezes...

So here we have the classic tale: the vibrant and innovative Terrans run into the intensely conservative and corrupt Vilani and, over the coming centuries, overwhelm and conquer their empire. Except: the Terrans by that point had certainly made strides in eliminating many of the diseases that crushed AmerInd, Aborigine, and Pacific Island populations, but there would be diseases that gave them more trouble, especially those that were inconvenient but less harmful, that therefore attracted less effort at eradication. And: the Vilani for all their advancement had little to prepare them for epidemic disease. Whatever diseases they had were whatever had been brought with them 300,000 years ago and whatever had evolved among them since - none of those with a history of bouncing back and forth between human and nonhuman hosts, rapidly mutating into new strains.

The Vilani had no experience of the flu.

One wonders that this is not mentioned in canon. One wonders whether the Vilani, with no experience of flu or other common Terran bugs and a medical system that had to be weak on epidemiology and infection control, experienced something akin to the 1918 flu epidemic, sweeping through them world-by-world and weakening them, distracting them at the moment when the Terrans were beginning their expansion. The Terran campaign to conquer Vilani space may have begun when the first Terran shook a Vilani hand.

It is mentioned:

From MT:V&V, page 34:

As the Vilani expanded into space, the medical therapist's role become more vital and more complex. Especially after contact with teh SOlomani, the Vilani medics were faced with microorganisms more deadly thatn anything ever faced on Vland. Vilani spacers suffered from the diseases of hundreds of wolrds, until such time as the Terran physicians aided their Vilani counterparts at the end of interstellar wars.

I also think to remember a quote about this being a major factor in Interstellar Wars, but I cannot recall where I could read it.

 

[McPerth]

Aside from the various flu viruses, you still have a large reservoir of things like Chicken Pox, which for an adult is serious, measles, whooping cough, and diphtheria, not counting things like the Ebola virus. Those all were a factor in decimating the native populations in the New World and Oceania.

I guess (hope?) most of those diseases you cite would be extint by 2087, when Terrans dicovered the Jump Drive.

Since WHO initiated its camapig for smallpox erradication, it was erradicated in 1959, it was erradicated by 1979, and Polio Erradication Initiative began in 1988, and today it has attained over 99% erradication, and is expected to be erradicated in a few years (as today, only India, Pakistan and Nigeria have wild polio virus circulating).

I expect (hope?) measles, mumps and chicken pox to be next targets, whooping cough will be a little more difficult because is a bacteria, not a virus, and so may live outside its host, but the vaccine is quite effective and may also be target for erradication.

I agree flu would be the main disease in this plagues, though others may also affect the Vilani, but few of them are aerial transmission, and so, unless deliberately spread (I don't see Terans above using biological war, as they saw themselves in iferiority conditions), few of the remaining diseases would cause severe acute outbreaks (assuming Vilani had learned, at least, the minimal hygiene mesures from previous contact with exo-vilani pathogens.

And remember many of other diseases capable of those outbreacks (as malaria or yellow fever) need some vectors I don't expect to be found in the invaded Vilani worlds.

 

[whartung]

Just seems odd, that the local fauna and wild life would be edible but immune from cross contamination, over several thousands of years of mutating viruses. As I understand it, the European diseases were mostly sourced through interaction with animals and jumped species. The close proximity through the domestication of animals provided exposure and, eventually, immunity to the citizens of Europe.

The New World wasn't doing so much animal husbandry and thus did not encounter similar organisms, thus their susceptibility to the diseases when the explorers and traders came.

The Vilani went through some domestication process of local wild life, I assume, and I'm surprised that they were compatible enough to be eaten, etc. but have nothing cross over.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Just seems odd, that the local fauna and wild life would be edible but immune from cross contamination, over several thousands of years of mutating viruses.

Remember that the only reason they are edible is because of "extreme" cooking methods. (Yes, there's a major deus ex machina there.)

I guess (hope?) most of those diseases you cite would be extint by 2087, when Terrans dicovered the Jump Drive.

Not sure they would necessarily be extinct, but perhaps below the level of awareness. Remember how many much bigger critters we have labeled "extinct" only to find some in a far-off corner of a jungle somewhere.

That would actually be an interesting scenario: Solomani plop down somewhere and find a Vilani colony. They interact, and suddenly the Vilani start dropping like flies. The Solomani can't figure out what's going on - because it's some bug that was considered "eradicated" on Sol, but was just hiding away somewhere, just waiting for its chance. The Solomani finally figure out what it is, then have to work from scratch (or *really* old historical files) to find a cure/vaccine.

 

[warwizard]

I'm surprised the Imperium game did not have any game effects from the plague of Duskir (Duskir being one of the Valani worlds in the game). But I am putting the plague into my campaign setting for my Pre interstellar wars Terran MTU, it just makes sense.

• 
  300,000 years ago some genus of Homo, and Canis Lupis are collected by very high tech aliens.

• 
  The population samples from these visits were small and did not include the supporting ecology.

• 
  These populations continued to have access to high tech facilities, soap, and seperation from being immersed into a compatible ecology for thousands of years before the effects of war freed them from such conditions.

Given these conditions it is reasonable that they would have very limited exposure to pathogens, and almost none of these pathogens would be surviving from the limited samples from the initial collections.
They will still have the bacteria populations that are in symbosis with Homo, however after 300,000 years these bacteria may have lost some genes that allowed them to out compete other bacterial species for their niches.

Terran Kisses a Valani... transferrance of gut bacteria happens and guess who gets sick?
Terran natural foods such as live yogurt, blue cheese, and other examples are very dangerous to the valani.

 

[GypsyComet]

I'm surprised the Imperium game did not have any game effects from the plague of Duskir (Duskir being one of the Valani worlds in the game). But I am putting the plague into my campaign setting for my Pre interstellar wars Terran MTU, it just makes sense.

...

Terran Kisses a Valani... transferrance of gut bacteria happens and guess who gets sick?
Terran natural foods such as live yogurt, blue cheese, and other examples are very dangerous to the valani.

The first is, somewhat ironically, due to the Vilani treating the Terrans just like an infection. Resources overwhelmingly moved toward the warzone, and very little moved away from it. The cold war periods would see mixing, but those populations weren't going anywhere either. The spacefaring percentage of the existing Vilani population is more akin to the percentage of modern humans who have been to orbit than to those who use ships or airplanes to travel.

You also have the success of the early Terran incursions to take into account. Until the end of the IW period, Terrans were typically trading under an almost military set of contact rules (with little to no "fraternization") or they were taking over conquered worlds which would then get the medical knowledge to respond to and contain issues. Not until the end of the wars does the wild expansion of Terran occupation forces spread our native diseases widely with little to no medical backup.

On the second point, I doubt that active cultures of Terran digestive bacteria would be "dangerous" as such, and certainly not the same as a flu bug, but the cases of "food poisoning" are going to be troublesome on top of the other bugs.

 

[McPerth]

Not sure they would necessarily be extinct, but perhaps below the level of awareness. Remember how many much bigger critters we have labeled "extinct" only to find some in a far-off corner of a jungle somewhere.

As now, the only infectious disease ever considered erradicated is smllpox, and, as now ,n ocases have been since 1977 ther have been no naturaly cases (the last cases were in 1978, due to a laboratory accident).

 

[McPerth]

On the second point, I doubt that active cultures of Terran digestive bacteria would be "dangerous" as such, and certainly not the same as a flu bug, but the cases of "food poisoning" are going to be troublesome on top of the other bugs.

Well, Escherichia Coli is a digestive flora bacteria naturally exisiting in (terran) human intestine, and yet they are the main pathogen in urinary tract infections, and some variants (mostly enterohemorrhagic ones) of it are quite letal even to (terran) humans.

I guess we cannot imagine what will it do to unused (non terran) humans...

 

[GypsyComet]

Well, Escherichia Coli is a digestive flora bacteria naturally exisiting in (terran) human intestine, and yet they are the main pathogen in urinary tract infections, and some variants (mostly enterohemorrhagic ones) of it are quite letal even to (terran) humans.

I guess we cannot imagine what will it do to unused (non terran) humans...

E. coli is dangerous when it escapes the gut, certainly. If the Vilani somehow lack the biochemical controls to keep a Terran strain where it belongs, then they'll have problems, certainly.

My answer was aimed at the dairy digesters found in "live" yogurt: Lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus. Modern populations that lack sufficient gut populations of these suffer when consuming dairy products, but only until those gut populations grow to accommodate the diet change.

Blue cheese is a two-sided coin, being a combination of the mold Penicillium (source of penicillin) and bacterial populations. If the Vilani can handle cheese at all, and especially a cheese that smells like feet, they may benefit in the longer term.

 

[rancke]

The plagues were caused by pathogens to which the Terrans had immunity, making them carriers, while the Vilani did not.

There's nothing implausible in that. The big problem is the notion, implied or stated outright, I forget which, that the Vilani had never encountered diseases before even though they had contacted dozens of minor human races already. The usual explanation is that they had encountered diseases, but that the Terran ones were much more virulent than anything they had encountered before.


Hans