The Rebellion and World War One?

[jcrocker]

GDW seems to like to run game universes into the ground - Twilight:2000 and MegaTraveller's 3rd Imperium as exhibits A & B.

I'm sure that if Dulinor had put his thinking cap on, he could have come up with a plan with a better chance of success, but apparantly the goal was to shake up the game universe in a very thorough manner and expose the 'centrifugal' nature of what the 3I had become - a collection of domains.

In other words, the end result was dictated, and "Dulinor's Plan" sounds good enough to cover most of the bases.

If I were planning a coup, I'd like to have more redundancies built in for random factors like, 'what happens if today of all days some member of the Guard accidentally discharges his SMG and finds it loaded with blanks?' and 'what about that idiot cousin, Lucan?'

On the other hand, if it was meant as an accurate reflection of the absolute best coup he could come up with, I don't think Dulinor would have made a very good leader - way too many variables that, as it turns out, screwed the whole plan.

 

[jcrocker]

GDW seems to like to run game universes into the ground - Twilight:2000 and MegaTraveller's 3rd Imperium as exhibits A & B.

I'm sure that if Dulinor had put his thinking cap on, he could have come up with a plan with a better chance of success, but apparantly the goal was to shake up the game universe in a very thorough manner and expose the 'centrifugal' nature of what the 3I had become - a collection of domains.

In other words, the end result was dictated, and "Dulinor's Plan" sounds good enough to cover most of the bases.

If I were planning a coup, I'd like to have more redundancies built in for random factors like, 'what happens if today of all days some member of the Guard accidentally discharges his SMG and finds it loaded with blanks?' and 'what about that idiot cousin, Lucan?'

On the other hand, if it was meant as an accurate reflection of the absolute best coup he could come up with, I don't think Dulinor would have made a very good leader - way too many variables that, as it turns out, screwed the whole plan.

 

[jcrocker]

GDW seems to like to run game universes into the ground - Twilight:2000 and MegaTraveller's 3rd Imperium as exhibits A & B.

I'm sure that if Dulinor had put his thinking cap on, he could have come up with a plan with a better chance of success, but apparantly the goal was to shake up the game universe in a very thorough manner and expose the 'centrifugal' nature of what the 3I had become - a collection of domains.

In other words, the end result was dictated, and "Dulinor's Plan" sounds good enough to cover most of the bases.

If I were planning a coup, I'd like to have more redundancies built in for random factors like, 'what happens if today of all days some member of the Guard accidentally discharges his SMG and finds it loaded with blanks?' and 'what about that idiot cousin, Lucan?'

On the other hand, if it was meant as an accurate reflection of the absolute best coup he could come up with, I don't think Dulinor would have made a very good leader - way too many variables that, as it turns out, screwed the whole plan.

 

[kaladorn]

Although I agree with some of the comments, keep this in mind: One has to assume that, having had a few coups before (read:many), the Imperium may keep a close eye on fleet movements and a large fleet working its way into the core sector from somewhere else *without a directive from the Emperor* might well tip your hand ahead of time. My guess/rationalization is that Dulinor brought the largest amount of force he felt he could get into the area without tipping his hand.

 

[kaladorn]

Although I agree with some of the comments, keep this in mind: One has to assume that, having had a few coups before (read:many), the Imperium may keep a close eye on fleet movements and a large fleet working its way into the core sector from somewhere else *without a directive from the Emperor* might well tip your hand ahead of time. My guess/rationalization is that Dulinor brought the largest amount of force he felt he could get into the area without tipping his hand.

 

[kaladorn]

Although I agree with some of the comments, keep this in mind: One has to assume that, having had a few coups before (read:many), the Imperium may keep a close eye on fleet movements and a large fleet working its way into the core sector from somewhere else *without a directive from the Emperor* might well tip your hand ahead of time. My guess/rationalization is that Dulinor brought the largest amount of force he felt he could get into the area without tipping his hand.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
And especially if Dulinor had started on his reforms and positive changes immediately and people had started to feel he was a 'good guy' (and his spin control PR had been running since the coup). Then the 'real strephon' showing up might actually not have been viewed in such a good light by the general populace...

I think that Dulinor's reforms would have undermined his position, not strengthened them.

The logic of them is that the Emperor has the ability to tell the nobility what to do. This, unfortunately for Dulinor, is only true up to a point.

His reforms would be resisted. In many cases, quite legitimately. They would then be enforced. This enforcement would be resented, even if not immediately resisted.

And then Strephon comes along... If he had been clever enough, he would have Brzk on his side, at the very least.

Why Brzk? Well, (a) Dulinor had been moving in on his turf and threatening his charisma; and (b) Brzk is the natural de facto leader of the non-Vilani/Solomani population of the Imperium. In other words, he was the natural leader of the people who would be most threatened by Dulinor's Solomani style reforms.

People have already pointed out that Margaret would be another sore spot for Dulinor. She would also be Strephon's heir if it did turn out that he was alive and could take back the throne. Dulinor would have her surrounded by spies, of course, but she is still likely to join up with a Strephonist revolt if it picked up momentum.

Hmm... I thought I didn't really like "Wounded Colossus" type settings... This one would be interesting.

You could probably do the same kind of thing in the period of usurpations before the Civil War. Or just run a game in the Civil War itself. In these campaigns you would, of course, declare the future "open", that is, that the future is not pre-determined.

Milieu 1000 would work too. Just set your game around the abdication of Styryx and/or a possible attempt by him to reclaim it.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
And especially if Dulinor had started on his reforms and positive changes immediately and people had started to feel he was a 'good guy' (and his spin control PR had been running since the coup). Then the 'real strephon' showing up might actually not have been viewed in such a good light by the general populace...

I think that Dulinor's reforms would have undermined his position, not strengthened them.

The logic of them is that the Emperor has the ability to tell the nobility what to do. This, unfortunately for Dulinor, is only true up to a point.

His reforms would be resisted. In many cases, quite legitimately. They would then be enforced. This enforcement would be resented, even if not immediately resisted.

And then Strephon comes along... If he had been clever enough, he would have Brzk on his side, at the very least.

Why Brzk? Well, (a) Dulinor had been moving in on his turf and threatening his charisma; and (b) Brzk is the natural de facto leader of the non-Vilani/Solomani population of the Imperium. In other words, he was the natural leader of the people who would be most threatened by Dulinor's Solomani style reforms.

People have already pointed out that Margaret would be another sore spot for Dulinor. She would also be Strephon's heir if it did turn out that he was alive and could take back the throne. Dulinor would have her surrounded by spies, of course, but she is still likely to join up with a Strephonist revolt if it picked up momentum.

Hmm... I thought I didn't really like "Wounded Colossus" type settings... This one would be interesting.

You could probably do the same kind of thing in the period of usurpations before the Civil War. Or just run a game in the Civil War itself. In these campaigns you would, of course, declare the future "open", that is, that the future is not pre-determined.

Milieu 1000 would work too. Just set your game around the abdication of Styryx and/or a possible attempt by him to reclaim it.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
And especially if Dulinor had started on his reforms and positive changes immediately and people had started to feel he was a 'good guy' (and his spin control PR had been running since the coup). Then the 'real strephon' showing up might actually not have been viewed in such a good light by the general populace...

I think that Dulinor's reforms would have undermined his position, not strengthened them.

The logic of them is that the Emperor has the ability to tell the nobility what to do. This, unfortunately for Dulinor, is only true up to a point.

His reforms would be resisted. In many cases, quite legitimately. They would then be enforced. This enforcement would be resented, even if not immediately resisted.

And then Strephon comes along... If he had been clever enough, he would have Brzk on his side, at the very least.

Why Brzk? Well, (a) Dulinor had been moving in on his turf and threatening his charisma; and (b) Brzk is the natural de facto leader of the non-Vilani/Solomani population of the Imperium. In other words, he was the natural leader of the people who would be most threatened by Dulinor's Solomani style reforms.

People have already pointed out that Margaret would be another sore spot for Dulinor. She would also be Strephon's heir if it did turn out that he was alive and could take back the throne. Dulinor would have her surrounded by spies, of course, but she is still likely to join up with a Strephonist revolt if it picked up momentum.

Hmm... I thought I didn't really like "Wounded Colossus" type settings... This one would be interesting.

You could probably do the same kind of thing in the period of usurpations before the Civil War. Or just run a game in the Civil War itself. In these campaigns you would, of course, declare the future "open", that is, that the future is not pre-determined.

Milieu 1000 would work too. Just set your game around the abdication of Styryx and/or a possible attempt by him to reclaim it.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Jon Crocker:
If I were planning a coup, I'd like to have more redundancies built in for random factors like, 'what happens if today of all days some member of the Guard accidentally discharges his SMG and finds it loaded with blanks?' and 'what about that idiot cousin, Lucan?'

The hit on Lucan almost succeeded. Varian died, at least.

Clearly Dulinor wasn't able to seize the whole Imperial Palace complex simultaneously. The sheer size of it all, plus presence of the loyal Guard units and similar personnel ensured that.

Sending more than a single assassin would seem like a good idea, but I suppose that getting them through security would be a problem. And sending a backup force once things had come out into the open might not have been possible either. At least not if you wanted them to survive...

We would need decent maps of the Imperial Palace complex, details of the security arrangements, and a whole bunch of stuff to be able to adequately analyse Dulinor's plan. Even then we would need to remember that Dulinor himself wouldn't have had access to all this information, and would be making the best plan possible with the information he had.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Jon Crocker:
If I were planning a coup, I'd like to have more redundancies built in for random factors like, 'what happens if today of all days some member of the Guard accidentally discharges his SMG and finds it loaded with blanks?' and 'what about that idiot cousin, Lucan?'

The hit on Lucan almost succeeded. Varian died, at least.

Clearly Dulinor wasn't able to seize the whole Imperial Palace complex simultaneously. The sheer size of it all, plus presence of the loyal Guard units and similar personnel ensured that.

Sending more than a single assassin would seem like a good idea, but I suppose that getting them through security would be a problem. And sending a backup force once things had come out into the open might not have been possible either. At least not if you wanted them to survive...

We would need decent maps of the Imperial Palace complex, details of the security arrangements, and a whole bunch of stuff to be able to adequately analyse Dulinor's plan. Even then we would need to remember that Dulinor himself wouldn't have had access to all this information, and would be making the best plan possible with the information he had.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Jon Crocker:
If I were planning a coup, I'd like to have more redundancies built in for random factors like, 'what happens if today of all days some member of the Guard accidentally discharges his SMG and finds it loaded with blanks?' and 'what about that idiot cousin, Lucan?'

The hit on Lucan almost succeeded. Varian died, at least.

Clearly Dulinor wasn't able to seize the whole Imperial Palace complex simultaneously. The sheer size of it all, plus presence of the loyal Guard units and similar personnel ensured that.

Sending more than a single assassin would seem like a good idea, but I suppose that getting them through security would be a problem. And sending a backup force once things had come out into the open might not have been possible either. At least not if you wanted them to survive...

We would need decent maps of the Imperial Palace complex, details of the security arrangements, and a whole bunch of stuff to be able to adequately analyse Dulinor's plan. Even then we would need to remember that Dulinor himself wouldn't have had access to all this information, and would be making the best plan possible with the information he had.

 

[jcrocker]

Varian did die, but by his brother's hand. Not the sort of thing that a would-be usurper should be counting on. ["OK, Lucan will kill Varian, and with any luck strangle himself in his next s&m session. Margaret will see the credit coins we've placed on the slidewalk, bend over to pick them up, and then get stuck in the superglue coating until the sanitation robot comes along and sends her to the landfill..."]

GDW obviously had a story they wanted to tell, and they used crowbars to make the 3I background fit. I loved GDW's stuff - I've got shelves full of it - but some parts of it work better than others.

I agree with the point about the fleets - moving a fleet or even a squadron too far would set off a lot of alarms and get things rolling. But you wouldn't need to move fleets.

If Dulinor didn't have enough people on the inside to issue a few more movement orders so he'd have at least a couple clandestine ships in system with troops loyal to him [as big as the Imperial Navy must have been, you'd think a ship or two could drift through the cracks with the right guy on the inside] or send a hit *team* to shoot those pesky relatives instead of just one guy, you would have hoped that he would postpone until he had a better chance at his plan working.

It's all a handwave - Dulinor was obviously never meant to be completely successful because either [or both of]:
A. if he were, that would just put the 3I 'under new management' and not be the 'big shakeup' that the company wanted the MT system to be, or
B. GDW was demonstrating in a subtle way that Dulinor just wasn't cut out to be Emperor if he cut and run at the first sign that his plan was not going to be completely successful. [Which is consistent with his actions with the Coronation Fleet, when his nerve broke a couple of jumps from Capital and he ran back home.]

Some people just aren't cut from the right cloth to be the big cheese.

 

[jcrocker]

Varian did die, but by his brother's hand. Not the sort of thing that a would-be usurper should be counting on. ["OK, Lucan will kill Varian, and with any luck strangle himself in his next s&m session. Margaret will see the credit coins we've placed on the slidewalk, bend over to pick them up, and then get stuck in the superglue coating until the sanitation robot comes along and sends her to the landfill..."]

GDW obviously had a story they wanted to tell, and they used crowbars to make the 3I background fit. I loved GDW's stuff - I've got shelves full of it - but some parts of it work better than others.

I agree with the point about the fleets - moving a fleet or even a squadron too far would set off a lot of alarms and get things rolling. But you wouldn't need to move fleets.

If Dulinor didn't have enough people on the inside to issue a few more movement orders so he'd have at least a couple clandestine ships in system with troops loyal to him [as big as the Imperial Navy must have been, you'd think a ship or two could drift through the cracks with the right guy on the inside] or send a hit *team* to shoot those pesky relatives instead of just one guy, you would have hoped that he would postpone until he had a better chance at his plan working.

It's all a handwave - Dulinor was obviously never meant to be completely successful because either [or both of]:
A. if he were, that would just put the 3I 'under new management' and not be the 'big shakeup' that the company wanted the MT system to be, or
B. GDW was demonstrating in a subtle way that Dulinor just wasn't cut out to be Emperor if he cut and run at the first sign that his plan was not going to be completely successful. [Which is consistent with his actions with the Coronation Fleet, when his nerve broke a couple of jumps from Capital and he ran back home.]

Some people just aren't cut from the right cloth to be the big cheese.

 

[jcrocker]

Varian did die, but by his brother's hand. Not the sort of thing that a would-be usurper should be counting on. ["OK, Lucan will kill Varian, and with any luck strangle himself in his next s&m session. Margaret will see the credit coins we've placed on the slidewalk, bend over to pick them up, and then get stuck in the superglue coating until the sanitation robot comes along and sends her to the landfill..."]

GDW obviously had a story they wanted to tell, and they used crowbars to make the 3I background fit. I loved GDW's stuff - I've got shelves full of it - but some parts of it work better than others.

I agree with the point about the fleets - moving a fleet or even a squadron too far would set off a lot of alarms and get things rolling. But you wouldn't need to move fleets.

If Dulinor didn't have enough people on the inside to issue a few more movement orders so he'd have at least a couple clandestine ships in system with troops loyal to him [as big as the Imperial Navy must have been, you'd think a ship or two could drift through the cracks with the right guy on the inside] or send a hit *team* to shoot those pesky relatives instead of just one guy, you would have hoped that he would postpone until he had a better chance at his plan working.

It's all a handwave - Dulinor was obviously never meant to be completely successful because either [or both of]:
A. if he were, that would just put the 3I 'under new management' and not be the 'big shakeup' that the company wanted the MT system to be, or
B. GDW was demonstrating in a subtle way that Dulinor just wasn't cut out to be Emperor if he cut and run at the first sign that his plan was not going to be completely successful. [Which is consistent with his actions with the Coronation Fleet, when his nerve broke a couple of jumps from Capital and he ran back home.]

Some people just aren't cut from the right cloth to be the big cheese.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Jon Crocker:
Varian did die, but by his brother's hand. Not the sort of thing that a would-be usurper should be counting on.
...
If Dulinor didn't have enough people on the inside to issue a few more movement orders so he'd have at least a couple clandestine ships in system with troops loyal to him [as big as the Imperial Navy must have been, you'd think a ship or two could drift through the cracks with the right guy on the inside] or send a hit *team* to shoot those pesky relatives instead of just one guy, you would have hoped that he would postpone until he had a better chance at his plan working.

Ignoring that it was all handwaved anyway...

Dulinor would have been operating under significant constraints in his planning.

Of course sending a team would have been a preferable, but presumably it wasn't genuinely wasn't feasible.

Similarly, it's highly unlikely that the Capital system isn't full of ships and troops. Any force that Dulinor could have brought in, short of a major battle fleet, would have been horribly outgunned and outnumbered. Frankly, he did well getting out alive, IMHO. Presumably sheer confusion was responsible.

If he had stayed around long enough for that confusion to subside, he might well have been trapped, and I doubt that his claim to the throne would have helped him.

So he needed more force on his side than he had, and it didn't seem likely that he was going to be able to get it there without tipping off Strephon.

He could either not bother, or go ahead regardless, trying to decapitate his opposition and then seizing the throne with his fleets. He actually succeeded in the decapitation - his opponents fragmented into lots and lots of rival factions. But that was the limit of his success.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Jon Crocker:
Varian did die, but by his brother's hand. Not the sort of thing that a would-be usurper should be counting on.
...
If Dulinor didn't have enough people on the inside to issue a few more movement orders so he'd have at least a couple clandestine ships in system with troops loyal to him [as big as the Imperial Navy must have been, you'd think a ship or two could drift through the cracks with the right guy on the inside] or send a hit *team* to shoot those pesky relatives instead of just one guy, you would have hoped that he would postpone until he had a better chance at his plan working.

Ignoring that it was all handwaved anyway...

Dulinor would have been operating under significant constraints in his planning.

Of course sending a team would have been a preferable, but presumably it wasn't genuinely wasn't feasible.

Similarly, it's highly unlikely that the Capital system isn't full of ships and troops. Any force that Dulinor could have brought in, short of a major battle fleet, would have been horribly outgunned and outnumbered. Frankly, he did well getting out alive, IMHO. Presumably sheer confusion was responsible.

If he had stayed around long enough for that confusion to subside, he might well have been trapped, and I doubt that his claim to the throne would have helped him.

So he needed more force on his side than he had, and it didn't seem likely that he was going to be able to get it there without tipping off Strephon.

He could either not bother, or go ahead regardless, trying to decapitate his opposition and then seizing the throne with his fleets. He actually succeeded in the decapitation - his opponents fragmented into lots and lots of rival factions. But that was the limit of his success.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Jon Crocker:
Varian did die, but by his brother's hand. Not the sort of thing that a would-be usurper should be counting on.
...
If Dulinor didn't have enough people on the inside to issue a few more movement orders so he'd have at least a couple clandestine ships in system with troops loyal to him [as big as the Imperial Navy must have been, you'd think a ship or two could drift through the cracks with the right guy on the inside] or send a hit *team* to shoot those pesky relatives instead of just one guy, you would have hoped that he would postpone until he had a better chance at his plan working.

Ignoring that it was all handwaved anyway...

Dulinor would have been operating under significant constraints in his planning.

Of course sending a team would have been a preferable, but presumably it wasn't genuinely wasn't feasible.

Similarly, it's highly unlikely that the Capital system isn't full of ships and troops. Any force that Dulinor could have brought in, short of a major battle fleet, would have been horribly outgunned and outnumbered. Frankly, he did well getting out alive, IMHO. Presumably sheer confusion was responsible.

If he had stayed around long enough for that confusion to subside, he might well have been trapped, and I doubt that his claim to the throne would have helped him.

So he needed more force on his side than he had, and it didn't seem likely that he was going to be able to get it there without tipping off Strephon.

He could either not bother, or go ahead regardless, trying to decapitate his opposition and then seizing the throne with his fleets. He actually succeeded in the decapitation - his opponents fragmented into lots and lots of rival factions. But that was the limit of his success.

 

[kaladorn]

I'm afraid, Alan, that you are too modern in your thinking. If Dulinor had offed the others, and made claim, he has a *legitemate* legal right to the throne (thank you very much, world's stupidest policy on leader removal). I don't think the fleets would have turned against him, because many of the nobles would have recognized his legal rights and he could justly have called on them to bring the local Imperial forces to heel.

Further, an interesting twist on the story could be this, and we don't know: How many of the nobles on Capital were Dulinor sympathizers? Or just hated Strephon? Historically, many Kings were disliked by their closest rivals for power and those sometimes geographically closest to them (sometimes this was a Machiavellian decision to keep them under the leader's thumb). Having said that, if there were enough people who were sympathizers or just wanted *any* change in management, and if he had managed the 'clean broom' move, even Strephon loyalists would have had no one to be loyal to. At that point, Dulinor looks like the only viable option.

Of course, this won't preclude a few IG die hards taking a shot at the assassin. But that's why Dulinor has his IG. In addition to smuggling in dud weapons for the other gaurd, his gaurd should have brought in some nukes or some other mechanism to inflict significant damage to the local non-Ilelish IG units. They're his most likely threat vector. Smash them, and you're localized threat is gone. By the time an external response can be mounted, you're done and the deal is fait accomplit.

Keep in mind about Capital: Ships are coming and going. But ask yourself this - How much of US military force is present in Washington? Lots of its administration, and some significant force, but relative to the overall force, very little and very little of it the heavy stuff. Similarly, Ottawa, London, Bonn, etc. I think you'll find that in many cases, the core system might well have a lot of police, a lot of military administration, but actual front line combat units might be few and far between. So you shatter the nearby threats, a real response might be hard to muster. Sure, they can call for help... at the speed of jump...

You don't keep good combat units sitting on their hands a Capital. They don't get much combat experience within a few parsecs of your administrative center (or at least not pre-Rebellion!). So you'll tend to have 'security' but the 3I has been so stagnant for several hundred years that it wouldn't surprise me if even that was lax.

 

[kaladorn]

I'm afraid, Alan, that you are too modern in your thinking. If Dulinor had offed the others, and made claim, he has a *legitemate* legal right to the throne (thank you very much, world's stupidest policy on leader removal). I don't think the fleets would have turned against him, because many of the nobles would have recognized his legal rights and he could justly have called on them to bring the local Imperial forces to heel.

Further, an interesting twist on the story could be this, and we don't know: How many of the nobles on Capital were Dulinor sympathizers? Or just hated Strephon? Historically, many Kings were disliked by their closest rivals for power and those sometimes geographically closest to them (sometimes this was a Machiavellian decision to keep them under the leader's thumb). Having said that, if there were enough people who were sympathizers or just wanted *any* change in management, and if he had managed the 'clean broom' move, even Strephon loyalists would have had no one to be loyal to. At that point, Dulinor looks like the only viable option.

Of course, this won't preclude a few IG die hards taking a shot at the assassin. But that's why Dulinor has his IG. In addition to smuggling in dud weapons for the other gaurd, his gaurd should have brought in some nukes or some other mechanism to inflict significant damage to the local non-Ilelish IG units. They're his most likely threat vector. Smash them, and you're localized threat is gone. By the time an external response can be mounted, you're done and the deal is fait accomplit.

Keep in mind about Capital: Ships are coming and going. But ask yourself this - How much of US military force is present in Washington? Lots of its administration, and some significant force, but relative to the overall force, very little and very little of it the heavy stuff. Similarly, Ottawa, London, Bonn, etc. I think you'll find that in many cases, the core system might well have a lot of police, a lot of military administration, but actual front line combat units might be few and far between. So you shatter the nearby threats, a real response might be hard to muster. Sure, they can call for help... at the speed of jump...

You don't keep good combat units sitting on their hands a Capital. They don't get much combat experience within a few parsecs of your administrative center (or at least not pre-Rebellion!). So you'll tend to have 'security' but the 3I has been so stagnant for several hundred years that it wouldn't surprise me if even that was lax.