The Rebellion and World War One?

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by daryen:
My biggest problem with Dulinor is that his plan was crap. The right of assassination only works if you keep Capital. If you don't have the fleets needed to hold Capital, you shouldn't be killing the Emperor.

So, as smart as Dulinor might have been, as reasonable as his justifications may have been, his plan was flat out stupid, and doomed to catastrophe.

He should have taken his Coronation Fleet to Capital in 1116, not in 1130.

I sometimes wonder if Dulinor set his plan in motion too quickly.

Perhaps he saw an opportunity in the throne room that day and brought all his plans forward - instead of waiting the extra few years to build up his fleet strength.

I wonder if he could get black globe equipped warships?

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by daryen:
My biggest problem with Dulinor is that his plan was crap. The right of assassination only works if you keep Capital. If you don't have the fleets needed to hold Capital, you shouldn't be killing the Emperor.

So, as smart as Dulinor might have been, as reasonable as his justifications may have been, his plan was flat out stupid, and doomed to catastrophe.

He should have taken his Coronation Fleet to Capital in 1116, not in 1130.

I sometimes wonder if Dulinor set his plan in motion too quickly.

Perhaps he saw an opportunity in the throne room that day and brought all his plans forward - instead of waiting the extra few years to build up his fleet strength.

I wonder if he could get black globe equipped warships?

 

[jalberti]

I am not sure about too quickly, but what foiled his plan is three things: first, Lucan survived, second, sections of the Imperium reacted very negatively to his assasination, and third, the "real" Strephon was not killed.

Since the plan did not successfully take care of all of these, the Rebellion had to happen.

In my readings in Survial Margin, I do take Dulinor as a man with a conscious and I do think he would be disturbed by all the death that has occurred as a result of his actions. He would either let it consume him, or try to justify it. I think it would be the latter. I think the blame would be placed on Lucan.

 

[jalberti]

I am not sure about too quickly, but what foiled his plan is three things: first, Lucan survived, second, sections of the Imperium reacted very negatively to his assasination, and third, the "real" Strephon was not killed.

Since the plan did not successfully take care of all of these, the Rebellion had to happen.

In my readings in Survial Margin, I do take Dulinor as a man with a conscious and I do think he would be disturbed by all the death that has occurred as a result of his actions. He would either let it consume him, or try to justify it. I think it would be the latter. I think the blame would be placed on Lucan.

 

[jalberti]

I am not sure about too quickly, but what foiled his plan is three things: first, Lucan survived, second, sections of the Imperium reacted very negatively to his assasination, and third, the "real" Strephon was not killed.

Since the plan did not successfully take care of all of these, the Rebellion had to happen.

In my readings in Survial Margin, I do take Dulinor as a man with a conscious and I do think he would be disturbed by all the death that has occurred as a result of his actions. He would either let it consume him, or try to justify it. I think it would be the latter. I think the blame would be placed on Lucan.

 

[jcrocker]

Originally posted by Diocletian:

Since the plan did not successfully take care of all of these, the Rebellion had to happen.

...and if his plan was deficient, whose fault is that?

I think the blame would be placed on Lucan.

One thing there is never any shortage of, is blame. If Dulinor had pulled it off, he'd have been an underhanded bastard, but he'd have been emperor. Since he didn't, he and Lucan [and others] get to share the moral fault for sending tens of billions of Imperial subjects to their deaths. Not something most people want on their tombstone.

 

[jcrocker]

Originally posted by Diocletian:

Since the plan did not successfully take care of all of these, the Rebellion had to happen.

...and if his plan was deficient, whose fault is that?

I think the blame would be placed on Lucan.

One thing there is never any shortage of, is blame. If Dulinor had pulled it off, he'd have been an underhanded bastard, but he'd have been emperor. Since he didn't, he and Lucan [and others] get to share the moral fault for sending tens of billions of Imperial subjects to their deaths. Not something most people want on their tombstone.

 

[jcrocker]

Originally posted by Diocletian:

Since the plan did not successfully take care of all of these, the Rebellion had to happen.

...and if his plan was deficient, whose fault is that?

I think the blame would be placed on Lucan.

One thing there is never any shortage of, is blame. If Dulinor had pulled it off, he'd have been an underhanded bastard, but he'd have been emperor. Since he didn't, he and Lucan [and others] get to share the moral fault for sending tens of billions of Imperial subjects to their deaths. Not something most people want on their tombstone.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Diocletian:
I am not sure about too quickly, but what foiled his plan is three things: first, Lucan survived, second, sections of the Imperium reacted very negatively to his assasination, and third, the "real" Strephon was not killed.

No, the real problem was that he didn't have sufficient forces to hold Capital.

Had he killed "Stephon" (real or clone, doesn't matter) and held Capital, then the survival of Lucan is merely a setback, as that "problem" would quickly be corrected.

And once he had Capital, whether Strephon was real or not would be of no consequence. He would still have to fend off the Solomani and Vargr, and Margaret would have been a problem, but the rest of the Imperium would likely have fallen into line quickly enough.

Lucan's survival was merely a red herring. Dulinor screwed up by not making sure he could keep Capital.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Diocletian:
I am not sure about too quickly, but what foiled his plan is three things: first, Lucan survived, second, sections of the Imperium reacted very negatively to his assasination, and third, the "real" Strephon was not killed.

No, the real problem was that he didn't have sufficient forces to hold Capital.

Had he killed "Stephon" (real or clone, doesn't matter) and held Capital, then the survival of Lucan is merely a setback, as that "problem" would quickly be corrected.

And once he had Capital, whether Strephon was real or not would be of no consequence. He would still have to fend off the Solomani and Vargr, and Margaret would have been a problem, but the rest of the Imperium would likely have fallen into line quickly enough.

Lucan's survival was merely a red herring. Dulinor screwed up by not making sure he could keep Capital.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Diocletian:
I am not sure about too quickly, but what foiled his plan is three things: first, Lucan survived, second, sections of the Imperium reacted very negatively to his assasination, and third, the "real" Strephon was not killed.

No, the real problem was that he didn't have sufficient forces to hold Capital.

Had he killed "Stephon" (real or clone, doesn't matter) and held Capital, then the survival of Lucan is merely a setback, as that "problem" would quickly be corrected.

And once he had Capital, whether Strephon was real or not would be of no consequence. He would still have to fend off the Solomani and Vargr, and Margaret would have been a problem, but the rest of the Imperium would likely have fallen into line quickly enough.

Lucan's survival was merely a red herring. Dulinor screwed up by not making sure he could keep Capital.

 

[kaladorn]

The 'real' or 'unreal' Strephon issue is almost besides the point. If Dulinor had swept away Strephon, Iolanthe, the Imperial Princess, Lucan and Varian, then he'd have had the job done. Any palace revolt would have quickly died down.

Thus, he could have held Capital. I am fairly certain some amount of the rally against Dulinor and the Ilelish Gaurd was a result of the fact their *was* an Imperial Heir still alive. If Dulinor was *it*, then he'd have no one to justly claim the throne and the moot would probably also acquiesce.

OTOH, when and if the 'real strephon' turned up, that'd be a right bugger.... what do you do with the lawful emperor (the guy you've just nodded can have the job) is challenged by the lawful emperor (the guy you thought was dead, but who had the job last).... that'd give everyone a tough issue to deal with. The Moot especially.

And especially if Dulinor had started on his reforms and positive changes immediately and people had started to feel he was a 'good guy' (and his spin control PR had been running since the coup). Then the 'real strephon' showing up might actually not have been viewed in such a good light by the general populace...

Margaret would probably have fallen in line behind the Moot, even if she'd never like Dulinor. And the Solomani and Vargr wouldn't have been hard to fend off as the power transition would have been reasonably smooth, at least until 'the real guy' showed up later...

There is the interesting question: Assume Dulinor succeeded and the moot affirmed him. When Strephon shows up, what does the Moot do? It looks incompetent either way. What does Strephon do? Especially if he realizes showing up could cause a real crisis of power and confidence Empire wide? Hmmm.... (maybe he shows up in disguise and tries to 'clean up' Dulinor himself?)

 

[kaladorn]

The 'real' or 'unreal' Strephon issue is almost besides the point. If Dulinor had swept away Strephon, Iolanthe, the Imperial Princess, Lucan and Varian, then he'd have had the job done. Any palace revolt would have quickly died down.

Thus, he could have held Capital. I am fairly certain some amount of the rally against Dulinor and the Ilelish Gaurd was a result of the fact their *was* an Imperial Heir still alive. If Dulinor was *it*, then he'd have no one to justly claim the throne and the moot would probably also acquiesce.

OTOH, when and if the 'real strephon' turned up, that'd be a right bugger.... what do you do with the lawful emperor (the guy you've just nodded can have the job) is challenged by the lawful emperor (the guy you thought was dead, but who had the job last).... that'd give everyone a tough issue to deal with. The Moot especially.

And especially if Dulinor had started on his reforms and positive changes immediately and people had started to feel he was a 'good guy' (and his spin control PR had been running since the coup). Then the 'real strephon' showing up might actually not have been viewed in such a good light by the general populace...

Margaret would probably have fallen in line behind the Moot, even if she'd never like Dulinor. And the Solomani and Vargr wouldn't have been hard to fend off as the power transition would have been reasonably smooth, at least until 'the real guy' showed up later...

There is the interesting question: Assume Dulinor succeeded and the moot affirmed him. When Strephon shows up, what does the Moot do? It looks incompetent either way. What does Strephon do? Especially if he realizes showing up could cause a real crisis of power and confidence Empire wide? Hmmm.... (maybe he shows up in disguise and tries to 'clean up' Dulinor himself?)

 

[kaladorn]

The 'real' or 'unreal' Strephon issue is almost besides the point. If Dulinor had swept away Strephon, Iolanthe, the Imperial Princess, Lucan and Varian, then he'd have had the job done. Any palace revolt would have quickly died down.

Thus, he could have held Capital. I am fairly certain some amount of the rally against Dulinor and the Ilelish Gaurd was a result of the fact their *was* an Imperial Heir still alive. If Dulinor was *it*, then he'd have no one to justly claim the throne and the moot would probably also acquiesce.

OTOH, when and if the 'real strephon' turned up, that'd be a right bugger.... what do you do with the lawful emperor (the guy you've just nodded can have the job) is challenged by the lawful emperor (the guy you thought was dead, but who had the job last).... that'd give everyone a tough issue to deal with. The Moot especially.

And especially if Dulinor had started on his reforms and positive changes immediately and people had started to feel he was a 'good guy' (and his spin control PR had been running since the coup). Then the 'real strephon' showing up might actually not have been viewed in such a good light by the general populace...

Margaret would probably have fallen in line behind the Moot, even if she'd never like Dulinor. And the Solomani and Vargr wouldn't have been hard to fend off as the power transition would have been reasonably smooth, at least until 'the real guy' showed up later...

There is the interesting question: Assume Dulinor succeeded and the moot affirmed him. When Strephon shows up, what does the Moot do? It looks incompetent either way. What does Strephon do? Especially if he realizes showing up could cause a real crisis of power and confidence Empire wide? Hmmm.... (maybe he shows up in disguise and tries to 'clean up' Dulinor himself?)

 

[jcrocker]

Originally posted by kaladorn:

There is the interesting question: Assume Dulinor succeeded and the moot affirmed him. When Strephon shows up, what does the Moot do? It looks incompetent either way. What does Strephon do? Especially if he realizes showing up could cause a real crisis of power and confidence Empire wide? Hmmm.... (maybe he shows up in disguise and tries to 'clean up' Dulinor himself?)

That situation would be a lot closer to the series of coups that the Barracks Emperors used to get to power - the Imperium kept running, and the subject on the street swore fealty to whomever was on the throne that day.

 

[jcrocker]

Originally posted by kaladorn:

There is the interesting question: Assume Dulinor succeeded and the moot affirmed him. When Strephon shows up, what does the Moot do? It looks incompetent either way. What does Strephon do? Especially if he realizes showing up could cause a real crisis of power and confidence Empire wide? Hmmm.... (maybe he shows up in disguise and tries to 'clean up' Dulinor himself?)

That situation would be a lot closer to the series of coups that the Barracks Emperors used to get to power - the Imperium kept running, and the subject on the street swore fealty to whomever was on the throne that day.

 

[jcrocker]

Originally posted by kaladorn:

There is the interesting question: Assume Dulinor succeeded and the moot affirmed him. When Strephon shows up, what does the Moot do? It looks incompetent either way. What does Strephon do? Especially if he realizes showing up could cause a real crisis of power and confidence Empire wide? Hmmm.... (maybe he shows up in disguise and tries to 'clean up' Dulinor himself?)

That situation would be a lot closer to the series of coups that the Barracks Emperors used to get to power - the Imperium kept running, and the subject on the street swore fealty to whomever was on the throne that day.

 

[kafka47]

The one premise about the Rebellion that still has me questioning it...why did Dulinor have to jump all the way back to Dlan. Would it not have been logical to make a stand with a massed fleet somewhere else ie closer to Core?

Dulinor by going back to Dlan, IMTU, was a sign of the different regional loyalities that each Archduke builds...if another Archduke moves fleets without the permission of the residing duke/archduke, it just isn't cricket (at least, not since the Civil War).

Furthermore, if Verge had not separated would Dulinor been in a stronger position?

 

[kafka47]

The one premise about the Rebellion that still has me questioning it...why did Dulinor have to jump all the way back to Dlan. Would it not have been logical to make a stand with a massed fleet somewhere else ie closer to Core?

Dulinor by going back to Dlan, IMTU, was a sign of the different regional loyalities that each Archduke builds...if another Archduke moves fleets without the permission of the residing duke/archduke, it just isn't cricket (at least, not since the Civil War).

Furthermore, if Verge had not separated would Dulinor been in a stronger position?

 

[kafka47]

The one premise about the Rebellion that still has me questioning it...why did Dulinor have to jump all the way back to Dlan. Would it not have been logical to make a stand with a massed fleet somewhere else ie closer to Core?

Dulinor by going back to Dlan, IMTU, was a sign of the different regional loyalities that each Archduke builds...if another Archduke moves fleets without the permission of the residing duke/archduke, it just isn't cricket (at least, not since the Civil War).

Furthermore, if Verge had not separated would Dulinor been in a stronger position?