General The plants that would (probably) be taken to the stars

[Spinward Flow]

That - right there - is my point
You are riding in circles and ignoring what I have said.

For a reason.
You obviously don't like the reason ... but I at least have one.

I'm trying to stay within the confines of a conceptual framework that is backwards compatible with published CT sources.
You're saying that's foolish ... and that I should just throw the LBBs in the trash and do my own thing, regardless of the consequences.

To put it politely, I'm trying to stay ON the reservation with my homebrew rules for regenerative biome life support systems.
You want to have nothing to do with the reservation and are eager to migrate to a different continent/world/alternate reality that doesn't look like the one this is supposed to all be coming from.

I can appreciate that you say, "this is how it's done in the REAL world, so that's how it has to be done in the IMAGINARY world @ TL=9+" ... at which point I just smile ... and nod ... and leave you behind, because you obviously don't want to go where I'm going.

Your mileage may vary (indeed!).

Given there is no profit in trying to get you to recognize your error, I leave you to it

My error?
Methinks thou doth protest too much.

EDIT: Note that a skill could always be added, just as I'd expect 'Farming' to be added for a Farmer or Colonist career. However, adding such a skill to existing careers is messier, especially when it's going to dilute the skills a character has. At the very least, were I to add such a skill I'd be at giving Steward 'serves as Biolife-support -1'.

There's almost a precedent for this in Medical skill when extended to Xeno-Medicine. Take a look.

LBB1.81, p20-21:

There's also the precedent of being able to use Pilot skill at -1 as a default for Ship's Boat skill for the piloting of small craft.

So then, if we extend the Steward skill into a kind of (and I know this sounds really weird) ... some kind of Xeno-Steward ... then with a penalty (-1? -2?) you're able to apply your Steward skill to other species. That "other species" can include PLANTS (as strange as that sounds).

Obviously, people who specialize in Xeno-Steward (however you want to define that term) can use their skill on their chosen specialized species at no penalty, it's just OTHER species than the one(s) they've specialized in which apply the penalty.

For example:
A human who grew up in and is living in the Aslan Hierate would be culturally "Aslan" even though they're human.

If you put a species specialization on their Steward skill it would be something like ... Steward-1 (Aslan).

If this same human left Aslan territory and wanted to hire on as a steward onboard a starship in the Third Imperium or Solomani Rim, this human would be at a "cultural" disadvantage in their Steward skill (-1? -2?), due to the differences between Aslan and Humaniti (both physically and culturally).



Personally, I'd be inclined more in the direction of a -1 penalty for species "outside your enumerated specialization(s)" for the Steward skill, rather than a -2. However, I can easily see an argument in favor of the notion that if species are "different enough" (animal vs plant, humaniti vs hivers, etc.) then a -2 penalty to skill is warranted.



In practical terms, this would mean that a Steward hired to "tend to the regenerative biome life support" laboratory (containing plants and/or animals) would typically need to either have the "right species specializtion" OR a high enough skill level to be able to default to Xeno-Steward and still be able to meet the minimum qualification requirement of Steward-0 skill.

This would then mean that with a -2 penalty (species "too far" apart), you would need to have Steward-2 (humaniti) in order to be able to access (by in-skill default) Xeno-Steward-0 (life support biome) so as to be able to qualify for both passenger or life support service. If you want to be hired for both simultaneously (which would be 2 crew positions for 1 person), you'd need to have Steward-3 (humaniti) to sustain the -1 penalty for having 1 person work 2 crew positions AND the -2 penalty for Xeno-Steward (species "too far apart") at the same time.

Or you could do it the other way ... Steward-3 (life support biome) ... who is qualified to simultaneously be Steward-2 (life support biome)/Xeno-Steward-0 (humaniti) on a starship's payroll. Crew salary though would be calculated based on the actual Steward-3 skill level for both crew positions.



Probably a bit more trouble than it's worth to do that, but if you really want to play the game as a Life Simulator™ ... it's one way to square the circle of the issue (I guess).

 

[whartung]

Well, another point about a Steward maintaining this is, again, still, biomes on a ship will be technology and practices that are 100s of years old.

In a high information society, augmented by automation. Specifically anything remotely hydroponic will have the water quality monitored and maintained (and, as I understand it, with hydroponics, the nutrient solution ("water") and media are the keys to it all).

Its fair to say "farming is 1000 year old technology and farming is hard". I honestly don't know about that. I honestly don't know the risk of crop failure in modern, industrial, "high tech" farming. Farming is hard because the margins suck. Farming is hard if the environment turns its back on you. Environmental concerns, ideally, won't be an issue for ship board biome. "Please keep the thermostat at 75, the humidity at 60, and don't roll down the window when we're in space."

Can a Steward diagnose and fix a biome thats gone badly wrong? Infected with an alien fungus brought in on the boots of adventurers? Probably not.

But keeping an eye on a system that is largely automated, a "routine" aspect of space flight and societal technology, then, sure. Why not.

Its right up there with how apparently people are unable to cook for themselves on a starship so all they can eat is Space Food Sticks.

 

[kilemall]

Shrug, to me it’s engineering for life support as part of the broad range, being the advanced techs of fusion, gravitics and drives that allows for living and moving in space. Right in there for broad based skills like electronics and mechanical, which also have operations components.

Steward as harvester/cooker/life support operator makes sense to me, just not repair in case the plants catch disease.

Take the example of sensors, something that becomes a skill or cascade in later versions. I have electronics as the primary skill for sensors.

But I have gunnery as normal sensor roll for targeting but negatives for navigation or survey. Survey gets normal on planetary sensors but negatives on navigation and gunnery, navigation normal for nav but negatives for gunnery and survey etc.

Pilot can use sensors but default gets a negative for all.

I have an additional set of skills for designing large systems, and a required EDU of A+ to be an architect. So say an engineering-3 or agriculture-3 can fix that regenerative biome, but it takes EDU A+ to design a new one.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Its right up there with how apparently people are unable to cook for themselves on a starship so all they can eat is Space Food Sticks.

Respectfully,
Those on a starship can cook food "if" you carry the supplies to do so.
But, again, those supplies cut out cargo space (or replace other systems)
That said, most ships have an autoServ type system which adds flavors and textures to something that starts out as a protein paste

Now, if you want a stateroom-sized compartment "just for" cooking, which contains space for only the cooking stove, oven, a cooling unit and a
very very limited amount of canned or dry foodstuffs - there goes ~4 dTons of space for your ship
You can then add a pantry for several weeks of canned or "Stabilized" uncooked foodstuffs and ingredients for - say - 2 dTons...

The list goes on, but if you want people to cook, you have to give up space devoted to other systems or cargo.

 

[aramis]

On Solar Power: I keep seeing people seemingly assuming solar=photovoltaic panels. That's only one of several methods. The other two that come to mind are passive solar (in other words, paint it black), and focussed thermal with a turbine based electric generator.

Focussed is easier to manufacture, and more resilient to damage; the mirrors are pretty low tech to make: make a metal or silica or glass bed, then use vacuum metal deposition on them. Nice and simple. Doable with 1880's gear; doable reliably with 1950's gear.

Note that passive can also be focussed solar... partially heat your habs with sunlight reflected onto them.

 

[McPerth]

Show me a precedent, especially in CT ...

First of all: I don't see in the thread any label of CT only... Other versions have them. Even MT had Biology among its cascade Science skill...

Second: as any game, Traveller has a limited number of skills (I guess to allow for playabilty), and it centers (logically) on those "considered useful" for PCs, but many others are assumed to exist, despite not appearing on it. The referee must treat them on case-by-case basis:

At least to my knowledge, until MgT (that had Art and Trade skills)

• there's no clothing/tailor/clothing designer skill. That does not mean people goes nude...
• there's no music/art skill, yet art apears in some adventures...
• there's no Civilian engineer/architect/mason skill, does not mean people live in caves...

I can keep going, if you want, but I guess you took the point.

 

[Commander Truestar]

First of all: I don't see in the thread any label of CT only... Other versions have them. Even MT had Biology among its cascade Science skill...

Second: as any game, Traveller has a limited number of skills (i guess to allow for playabilty), and it centers (logically) on those "considered useful" for PCs, but many others are assumed to exist, despite not appearing on it. the referee must treat them on case-by-case basis:

At leat to my knowledge, until MgT (that had Art and Trade skills)

• there's no clothing/tailor/clothing designer skill. That does not mean people goes nude...
• there's no music/art skill, yet art apears in some adventures...
• there's no Civilian engineer/architect/mason skill, doesnot mean people lives in caves...

I can keep going, if you want, but I guess you took the point.

That's been my point all along.
Just because it wasn't in the LBB does not mean Marc and the crew didn't expect Game Masters to flesh out their universes...

You can't sit there using world maps you created - which were not in the LBB - and say "there was no botanist in the LBBs"

 

[atpollard]

I managed to avoid this topic for 20 days. Now that I have read the entire topic, I have several thoughts.

1. MARS​

Some of the arguments early on about Mars and what is “possible” felt a bit pedantic. The argument that large quantity access to space is “impossible” or “uneconomical” is full of half-truths.

• How many V-2 rockets were produced in a limited time and what was the per-unit cost?

History proved that mass production and low cost is obtainable at 1940’s technology, so it is still possible. Has anyone else ever read the essay entitled “A Rocket a Day”? It was a proposal to build and launch 365 heavy lift rockets in a year to reduce the cost to orbit and jump-start space industry by determining whether a commercial model of space was economically viable. It would have created an orbital fuel depot using surplus capacity to orbit and created an orbital tug using an existing upper stage. Thus the arguments about what cannot be done on Mars were more “political unwilling” than actual technical limitations.

HOWEVER …
The entire discussion sort of missed the most fundamental point: This is TRAVELLER … a game … the goal is not to simulate reality but to extrapolate from reality to create Science Fiction or Space Opera (as the taste of the individuals lean). Thus my general lack of interest in participating back then.

2. STEWARD vs BIOLOGIST​

Moving on to the most current discussion. A little “CHILL” might go a long way in the recent exchange. Both positions are perfectly valid given their drastically different initial assumptions.

• STEWARD: Using the standard crew positions, Basic Careers and skill lists from Classic Traveller as a starting point (which is fairly representative of a typical Traveller Starship Crew in any version of the game) … the Steward is a reasonable choice to operate a Hydroponic Garden. Technically, an argument could be made for several of the other positions as well - I like MEDICAL for “life support” and might argue that Hydroponics are a specialized Life Support System. A case could also be made for ENGINEER as maintaining just another ship system with Hydroponics using Mechanical and Electronics.
• BIOLOGIST (SCIENTIST): Starting from the assumption of all the non-starship crew positions that exist in any society, creating a new “career” or adding a new skill (or using a skill already added in one of the post CT versions) is certainly reasonable. It is just different.

It was the debate over whose “hand-wave” was better that seemed silly (to me).

 

[Spinward Flow]

2. STEWARD vs BIOLOGIST
Moving on to the most current discussion. A little “CHILL” might go a long way in the recent exchange. Both positions are perfectly valid given their drastically different initial assumptions.

• STEWARD: Using the standard crew positions, Basic Careers and skill lists from Classic Traveller as a starting point (which is fairly representative of a typical Traveller Starship Crew in any version of the game) … the Steward is a reasonable choice to operate a Hydroponic Garden. Technically, an argument could be made for several of the other positions as well - I like MEDICAL for “life support” and might argue that Hydroponics are a specialized Life Support System. A case could also be made for ENGINEER as maintaining just another ship system with Hydroponics using Mechanical and Electronics.
• BIOLOGIST (SCIENTIST): Starting from the assumption of all the non-starship crew positions that exist in any society, creating a new “career” or adding a new skill (or using a skill already added in one of the post CT versions) is certainly reasonable. It is just different.

This actually circles back to point which was made previously, specifically in reference to Low Berths.

In Traveller, the skill needed to "operate/use" a Low Berth is Medical skill, presumably for someone who is attending to the operation of the Low Berth and ensuring that variances do not cascade into life threatening results. However, presumably, in order to "create" the Low Berth technology would require multiple disciplines (computer, electronics, mechanical, medical, possibly more depending on how "involved" you want the tech to be, up to and including specializations into the field of low berth technologies).

Point being that there's a difference between the skill set needed to "operate" a Low Berth (medical) and the skills set need to "craft" a Low Berth (multi-disciplinary). However, from a Traveller starship crew positions perspective, all you really need is medical skill and you're good to go for routine operations and maintenance between annual overhaul cycles. However, a shipyard doing the annual overhaul maintenance work WOULD need those multiple disciplines (computer, electronics, mechanical, medical, et al.) in order to perform the annual overhaul work on low berths to an acceptable standard (warranty good for 1 year?).

A similar point of view can be taken with respect to the skills requirements for any sort of regenerative biome life support system installed onboard a starship.

Steward and Medical skills ought to be necessary for the "ordinary everyday" operation and upkeep of the systems involved, but an annual overhaul at a shipyard would need additional skills to be brought into the mix (computer, electronics, gravitics, mechanical, plus any others that might seem appropriate) by overhaul crews. Same deal with the "engineering/crafting" of a regenerative biome life support system for use on a starship that needs to be designed into a new class of starship. The shipyard will need to have specialists in a wider variety of skill disciplines to make the regenerative biome life support system "work right" when installed, but once the starship rolls off the line and is turned over to the customer/buyer, a more limited set of skills (steward plus medical) is all that is needed to keep the regenerative biome life support system "balanced and operating nominally" in between annual overhaul maintenance cycles.

Likewise a similar point can be made with regards to computer technologies.
I don't need to be a programmer in order to be able to "use" a computer.
I don't need to be a hardware designer/fabricator in order to use a computer either.
Case in point, the computer I'm typing this on is something that I can neither craft nor "repair" myself, but I'm perfectly capable of making use of it just the same. I have a limited ability to swap out components that fail (I needed to buy a new keyboard recently), but it's not like I need to have a "keyboard maintenance" skill in order to know how to touch type.

Point being that the skills needed to operate a technology "safely" as an end user will often times be a very limited subset of the skills needed to craft/make a technology available as a commercial product offering. Engineering and design will usually be the hard part, with the intention of making ease of use a priority for the customer who has to live with the product on the daily.

So in that respect, the skills needed to MAKE a technology are almost always going to be far more involved and specialized than the skills needed to USE (and operate) a technology. However, from a Traveller standpoint with respect to starship crew requirements, things are going to tend to land more in the direction of USE rather than MAKE under most (nominal) circumstances.
Recovery from battle damage is a different story, though.