We would be talking about a controlled environment. Were the Bamboo could be used for construction material, clothing, paper, and many everyday items.Pain in the _____ to control though. Local ordinance here was passed to deal with uncontrolled spread from backyard plantings that then spread. The particular focus was on property owners whose Bamboo had spread into State-owned highway right-of-way. The state came along and cleared it out last year and it is growing back this year.
General The plants that would (probably) be taken to the stars
- Thread starter Spinward Scout
- Start date
King Midas
SOC-10
We need a variant of the thumbs down. I'd like to give your post a TD, but that would mean I didn't like your post - I do. My variant would be a lighthearted "Just shoot my idea out of the sky wydoncha?"
I'm guessing that phosphorous isn't already on Mars?
I feel the same way. When I need to use a not positive emote, I use the Sad Emoji. If it isn't enough or doesn't fit, and I don't hate the Post, I'll do a reply and use the Emoji I feel best feels meets the needs of my response to the Post.
The Emoji I miss the most is the
of 
's.
Silverhawk
SOC-12
It just struck me where I had read about some of this before. It was Heinlein's Farmer in the Sky about terraforming Ganymede.
Commander Truestar
SOC-14 1K
Actually, yes.We need a variant of the thumbs down. I'd like to give your post a TD, but that would mean I didn't like your post - I do. My variant would be a lighthearted "Just shoot my idea out of the sky wydoncha?"
I'm guessing that phosphorous isn't already on Mars?
Phosphate minerals have been detected by multiple NASA rovers in locations like Gusev Crater and Jezero Crater.
But you face multiple options regarding that.
1) Ship mined and processed phosphates which can directly be added to any needed process
2) Add to the staffing of the colony an entire group of miners, haulers, processors and science staff to: A: recover the regolith, break it down to process it (requiring more machinery and sealed storage), Process the regolith to safely remove the phosphates from matrix, add properly measured and controlled phosphates to the proposed lot of soil.
As for "shoot my idea out of the sky wydoncha?"
I am sorry if you feel my comment was blunt but I expect the same treatment when my comments are off track. (And, there have been quite a few)
In the end, "currently", we are likely looking at two "Starship" passenger craft establishing a "one way" colony with (most likely) 200 colonists.
We expect they will likely arrive at a site where up to ten unmanned supply Starships have landed with a proposed 150 metric tons and even 250 metric tons each in "expendable mode".
So, we're talking ~200 people with no locally recoverable water or food, where the average Male takes in 3.7 liters and females take in 2.7 liters. So, a presumed maximum daily need would be 0.8157 metric tons.
So, 1 day's water "to survive" is almost a metric ton.
Where the supply starships pre-landed can deliver a max of 2,500 metric tons.
To last one year, that colony will demand 297.7305 metric tons - Which is "more than" the capacity of one lone supply ship.
And, that's just drinking water.
No food rations
No tools, construction supplies, etc.
So, add to the drinking water that tonnage of water additional fluids needed for the processes proposed.
Admittedly, this will not include attempts to wash Martian regolith, because all of the work must be devoted to deconstructing the starships on station for materials to create surface survival facilities.
Now, add the tonnage for food and other survival staples and the cargo space on those supply craft fall off more and more.
Considering that, many of the comments here, including yours, say "we can just do this", but don't consider that there would have to be machinery and specialists. Each ton of specialist machinery needed would have to be shipped from Earth whole or in parts. And, every specialist to operate those systems would have to be someone who either wore multiple hats or replaced a worker for habitat construction.
Yes, some proposals suggest we can just stack more and more jobs on the small population on-world. And those who suggest this should remember the rebellion of the Skylab 4 mission crew. Astronauts Gerald Carr, William Pogue, and Edward Gibson staged a "one-day" strike against their grueling, 16-hour-a-day workload. That and more recent events show that staff can't be unreasonably loaded down. So you need specialists where you have a limit how many people you can send. So, each specialist removes a general technician.
This is all logistics, and logistics can't be ignored by saying "this is easy"
Our history shows how very difficult it has been to spread across this planet. And as hard as that was, we didn't need to bring breathable air.
And we didn't have to replace the very soil on which we built.
So, I'm not just shooting your idea out of the sky.
We can dream of castles in the sky only so long as we build the foundations to keep them there.
But, I am sorry if you feel attacked
The way folks are talking, we're going to be having autonomous robots taking over the world in 10 years, so we can just send those and eliminate those pesky food, water, disposal requirements. They can reuse the what water they need (unless they just go and dig the ice up with picks and shovels). Wash the sand on washboards in tubs.
The robots can do 10 years of prep work in 1 year, and make it ready for the tourists.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The robots will make all the water you need, again you go with the claim there is none. A manned settlement on Mars will be built around the areas where water is available.
You land factories and robots to make the water and the oxygen and the rocket fuel, it is all well within current robotic and chemical engineering capability.
Small modular reactors, RTGs, solar panels, all can be landed to power the rogots and the factories. Once the fueling station and the oxygen and water reserves have been built up then you start landing hundred of people.
Why do you think so much of Tesla et al are devoted to Optimus and AI?
Robots and automated manufacturies first, people second, then the real colonisation begins.
Have you studied what Blue Origin thinks it can build on the Moon? It is easier to get water et al on Mars than the Moon.
Musk wants Mars, not the Moon. Within 10 years Starship will be operational, there will be orbital refueling stations, there will be fuel maufactories on the Moon. Mars will follow in short order.
You land factories and robots to make the water and the oxygen and the rocket fuel, it is all well within current robotic and chemical engineering capability.
Small modular reactors, RTGs, solar panels, all can be landed to power the rogots and the factories. Once the fueling station and the oxygen and water reserves have been built up then you start landing hundred of people.
Why do you think so much of Tesla et al are devoted to Optimus and AI?
Robots and automated manufacturies first, people second, then the real colonisation begins.
Have you studied what Blue Origin thinks it can build on the Moon? It is easier to get water et al on Mars than the Moon.
Musk wants Mars, not the Moon. Within 10 years Starship will be operational, there will be orbital refueling stations, there will be fuel maufactories on the Moon. Mars will follow in short order.
Commander Truestar
SOC-14 1K
Yes,
I remember when I worked for Princeton University in the 1980's and Fusion power was ten years away. Twenty at the worst.
We don't have Fusion power yet. The closest we come is Helium 3, which we have to build a lunar mining and transport network to get.
Yes, we are making strides in robotics.
But.....
Have you been watching the Mars Rover programs? Those "Are" autonomous robots.
Still, you do not see how much management those autonomous robots need to achieve simple tasks. Very simple tasks.
One of my direct connects in NASA/JPL wears a watch specifically designed to run on Mars Time, measuring in SOLs.
When you walk into a car factory, there are hundreds of Autonomous robots throughout the facility.
Each carries out one set of actions repeatedly, but is limited to those programmed actions.
So, while you can use autonomous robots for "some things", they:
1) Are very limited and must be controlled from Earth or a localized control center on Mars....by teams of humans (so. no you are not reducing human needs)
2) Must be transported and assembled on-world, reducing cargo in everything else from colony construction supplies to survival needs.
3) The robots we can send will mostly be massive machines instead of the walking humanoid machines everyone is imagining from firms like Boston Dynamics. These are not as versatile as people believe and the most versatile (though not yet highly visible) are military support bots. They can be deployed with troops because those troops are needed to control and direct them. They can handle very limited independent missions thanks to massive amounts of programming for that one mission.
And, I have to ask, have you looked at the mission profiles?
When I say "200 people", that is because that is what is being proposed.
The 200 people NASA has in their mission profiles are there because they know this is not Star wars.
Pity about all the maintenance and parts they'll need, eh?
We just ship more, and they can cannibalize each other for local parts. It will be fun to watch to see if the AIs start becoming tribal or ritualize things like sacrificing one robot for the needs of the many.
20 year old tech with no power autonomous robots. More related to terrain following RC cars than what modern robots are doing. They're designed to not fall into chasms and drive around rocks, Mission Control does all the routing.
The ones in the factories are not autonomous at all. They have "smarts" on par with an auto-focus camera, all of those motions are programmed in.
If we're on the brink of general purpose, autonomous robots, it would be absolutely foolish to "rush to Mars" with people. Why kill 200 people (even volunteers) if we can send 1000 robots in 10-20 years to better prep the site for eventual human researchers. Lets stand up a human biome with disposable bots to test the "unknown unknowns" that can wipe out the colony because the front door jammed one day.
Commander Truestar
SOC-14 1K
That's it, "We'll just ship more"
Have you looked at the logistics??
The point I made by quoting the tonnage and capacity is that we "Can't" just ship more.
Especially during the lift phase of the colonial effort.
And as for "They're designed to not fall into chasms and drive around rocks, Mission Control does all the routing"
That's entirely incorrect
They are designed to recognize hazards and call home for instruction.
While you are 100% correct Mission control sends instruction when either:
1) they see something interesting in the data returned by the rover -or-
2) There is a hazard and the rover called home for instructions
And that's one of the key points.
1) We are nowhere near robots capable of the self-awareness you suggest
2) As you describe, there would have to be large teams operating control centers here on Earth, or on Mars. And that limits what any robot can do without instruction and with delays from Earth. Or without delays on Mars, but that means you are not reducing the Human staff or support needs.
Now, I know you will push your expectation of advanced robots in the short term, but that is just your fantasies.
There are literally two applications into which money is flowing for that. The first is Military support - which are hard wired to carry out specific mission parameters and not versatile at all. And the other application is for "Human Companionship", and won't advance the mission classifications we're talking about.
I know you want to believe we'll have the robots you imagine, but each of us has an imagination.
Commander Truestar
SOC-14 1K
Look at those shelters....so vulnerable to falling rocks and such.
It would be a pity if anything happened to them.
Though, maintenance is yet another consideration when discussing the logistics in question
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The lifting capacity of an operational Starship could handle it.
King Midas
SOC-10
Not in the least. I'm fine with your excellent reply, sorry if that wasn't clear.
And yeah, mining raw phosphates isn't that easy. (No Martian bats or sea gulls*
) so the difficulty between mining and shipping would be a wash?*However, in the wider discussion of plants going into space, some extra solar planet might have such critters.
Yea, look at all the food, water, booze, and band aids that you don't have to ship. Look at all the oxygen and insulation you don't need because the robots can be "shipped cold". And look at all the robots merrily working along when the biodome ruptures for some reason. Set back? Sure. 200 dead colonists? No.
Having the bots able to scavenge their own for maintenance extends the lifespan of the initial effort. If bot A gets a bum arm, and bot B gets a bum leg, better to sacrafice Bot C and get 2 out of 3 vs 1 out of 3 working bots out of it. Hard to swap limbs on human colonists, and I'm pretty sure they're not going to let folks make replacements there in the initial forays.
Are those bots "that close"? I'm skeptical. Others not so much. If they are that close, its reckless to send folks up there. I don't know if anyone has an N year plan for shipping folks to stay on Mars, or what that N is. I know folks yammer about it, dunno if they're actually working a schedule.
The cynical plan:
Send a small server farm and nuclear power plant to support an AI, and a whole slew of software-defined radios and their antennae.
Direct the AI to simulate a Mars colony under construction.
Send a small server farm and nuclear power plant to support an AI, and a whole slew of software-defined radios and their antennae.
Direct the AI to simulate a Mars colony under construction.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Have Ender Wiggins play SimCity.
Lunar Astronauts Could Grow Their Own Tea
A team of researchers from Kent have demonstrated that it is possible to grow tea in lunar soil as part of a wider field of work to explore how future astronauts living and working on the moon can grow their own food.
The question then becomes how representative Lunar & Martian soil is to other moons & planets around other stars. I know we wont really know until we send probes or go ourselves, but will it be more like Traveller, a worse case scenario, or something in between?Lunar Astronauts Could Grow Their Own Tea
A team of researchers from Kent have demonstrated that it is possible to grow tea in lunar soil as part of a wider field of work to explore how future astronauts living and working on the moon can grow their own food.www.universetoday.com
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