The Great Fire thread fork

[kafka47]

In the thread...how Roman is your Imperium...I posted:

[FONT=arial,helvetica]This thread had me thinking most cities (including Rome) before the advent of brick and concrete had Great Fires which allowed for all sorts of new developments...now, there would not be a Fire per se in the Imperium that would wipe things out...but other than the Psionic Suppressions what events could we say fundamentally altered the nature of the Imperium akin to the Great Fire.
[/FONT]

Seems like nobody is interested there but maybe a new thread might help. Certainly, we have Long Nights, Data crashes and Plagues in Traveller. But none of these seem to really fundamentally alter the social structure of the game. What could we see burning through the Imperium needing to be suppressed - the Solomani Cause? An Ancient War machine appearing to orbit the Hinterworlds Ringworld? Jump Baffles? Deadspace?

These causing a paralysis and reorganization of leadership...when and how did things change?

 

[jatay3]

Something caused the Civil Wars.

 

[kafka47]

The Civil War was caused by the anger of the Frontier being ignored by the Core...especially after the Zhodani attacked. However, canon make it quite clear that it was rich admiral's game...the bureaucracy kept the Imperium running smoothly even as warships traded blows over Capital installing Yet Another Emperor. The only long term consequence was to remove some of the powers of the Archduke and centralize some & reward some other Sector dukes with more power...so no great change...

 

[jatay3]

Presumably the planets that got wasted by the Civil Wars considered it a great change.

 

[aramis]

Presumably the planets that got wasted by the Civil Wars considered it a great change.

the first Civil War didn't have much of that. The second did, but the second didn't shake out back into a singular Imperium, either.

 

[jatay3]

the first Civil War didn't have much of that. The second did, but the second didn't shake out back into a singular Imperium, either.

The definition of "much" when one talks of intersteller chaos is rather eccentric. But all that is unnecessary snarking I suppose.

One VERY great damage it did to the Imperium is that it devalued faith in it's internal cohesion. Faith in a state's cohesion is rather like faith in it's currency and once devalued it is hard to get it back up. After the civil wars it was now known that it was no longer unthinkable for an ambitious noble to refuse to attempt to use the Imperium's military resources for his own gain and against the interest of the Imperium. Whether it was unthinkable before is irrelevant. It was thought to be unthinkable and the thought itself reinforced the Imperium.

 

[rancke]

One VERY great damage it did to the Imperium is that it devalued faith in it's internal cohesion. Faith in a state's cohesion is rather like faith in it's currency and once devalued it is hard to get it back up. After the civil wars it was now known that it was no longer unthinkable for an ambitious noble to refuse to attempt to use the Imperium's military resources for his own gain and against the interest of the Imperium. Whether it was unthinkable before is irrelevant. It was thought to be unthinkable and the thought itself reinforced the Imperium.

But 500 years of Alkhalikoi rule restored that faith. If it hadn't been unthinkable that Dulinor would assassinate Strephon, he never would have gotten away with it with half the bodyguards in the room poised to gun him down at a second's notice. Sure, he'd suborned the Ilelish Guard bodyguards, but not the Scout guards. And let's not forget that Dulinor was expected (presumably required) to carry his ceremonial automatic in Strephon's presence.


Hans

 

[kafka47]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]But 500 years of Alkhalikoi rule restored that faith. If it hadn't been unthinkable that Dulinor would assassinate Strephon, he never would have gotten away with it with half the bodyguards in the room poised to gun him down at a second's notice. Sure, he'd suborned the Ilelish Guard bodyguards, but not the Scout guards. And let's not forget that Dulinor was expected (presumably required) to carry his ceremonial automatic in Strephon's presence. [/FONT]

Gotta agree with Hans, save, one point...it would seem that created multiple Cores and Peripheries within each Domain. Prior to the Civil War, one could see vast fleets moving across the Imperium...whereas, after, it somewhat cemented fleets to a particular sector. But, that is less epoch changing but it did confine the guards to the barracks which perhaps is quite significant later on with the rise of Domain and Sector loyalties.

 

[jatay3]

But 500 years of Alkhalikoi rule restored that faith. If it hadn't been unthinkable that Dulinor would assassinate Strephon, he never would have gotten away with it with half the bodyguards in the room poised to gun him down at a second's notice. Sure, he'd suborned the Ilelish Guard bodyguards, but not the Scout guards. And let's not forget that Dulinor was expected (presumably required) to carry his ceremonial automatic in Strephon's presence.


Hans

True. But the question asked was whether there had been "a great change", not whether there had been an unrecoverable change.

In any case one change there has been is a considerable slowing of Imperial expansionism. I can't remember when that started, but it has taken place.

 

[aramis]

The definition of "much" when one talks of intersteller chaos is rather eccentric. But all that is unnecessary snarking I suppose.

One VERY great damage it did to the Imperium is that it devalued faith in it's internal cohesion. Faith in a state's cohesion is rather like faith in it's currency and once devalued it is hard to get it back up. After the civil wars it was now known that it was no longer unthinkable for an ambitious noble to refuse to attempt to use the Imperium's military resources for his own gain and against the interest of the Imperium. Whether it was unthinkable before is irrelevant. It was thought to be unthinkable and the thought itself reinforced the Imperium.

It's very doubtful that most of the people of the Imperium even noticed until it was all over and done with. The "faith in the Imperium" might actually have been strengthened by the 1CW... because the infighting for the throne didn't disrupt the bureaucracy... at least, outside those places where it was actually fought. Most of which was the Core sector and subsector.

 

[rancke]

In any case one change there has been is a considerable slowing of Imperial expansionism. I can't remember when that started, but it has taken place.

"Considerable slowing" is right. Following the Civil War expansion has been glacial. Well... it has probably been glacial. Except for the Spinward Marches we don't know the exact borders of the Imperium in 630, but it can't have been very much smaller than it is today. There may have been limited expnasion in a few regions, but I think that mostly the borders have been quite stable.


Hans

 

[RandyB]

Not to mention the long-term success of the Zhodani in the series of Frontier Wars - not only have they slowed Imperial expansion in that region, they have A. forced the Imperial borders back and B. disrupted the internal development of the Spinward Marches sector. Only the 5FW can really be considered a draw, and I would give a Marginal Strategic Victory to the Zhodani, because Imperial attention in the region now centers on the Border Worlds, such that the development of District 268 is probably stagnating. And that is *before* the Rebellion, for those who use it...

 

[jatay3]

Empires that cannot expand farther often turn on themselves; when ambition can no longer be satisfied by cooperation, powerful people will start fighting over shares of the pie.

The Imperium may be different from previous Terran and Vilani empires, simply because there are so many venues in which to compete. Other empires were often limited by rigid social and economic structures to competing for territory. In the Third Imperium it is possible to compete for efficiency as well.