The Crucis Margin Question - How did 590 BILLION inhabitants go missing?

[Grav_Moped]

Your thoughts?

Interplanetary immigration is expensive. Not horribly so, but you're looking at a few kCr per body as steerage, and you're buying a lot of bodies if you're trying to affect Pop codes.

It's also disruptive. Culture and language differences need to be accounted for. Traveller handwaves this a lot, but it should matter. It also creates a community that may be isolated from the host-world's culture, and which may form a power bloc that's at best imperfectly aligned with that of the host world. And keep in mind that the immigrants are likely intended to slot into lower-paid jobs or economic sectors, which gives them a potential grievance against the host world.

 

[GypsyComet]

What is the status of the DGP material? I have a hard copy the MGT Journal with the Gateway sector circa 1120, chock full of good stuff, but I don't see it on the Travellermap.

I would have to ask, but I think the decision was made to assume that MegaTraveller data was considered Second Survey if it was the only data available, so the MegaTraveller Journal #4 data for Gateway got lumped into the 1105 data set on Traveller Map. Also, note that its credits on Traveller Map include the authors of both MTJ#4 and Gateway to Destiny, so both versions are acknowledged.

MTJ#4 carried a GDW copyright and is under Marc's control, so it can be considered rare but official.

 

[Shadowrunner]

Could this be massive internal fraud at the IISS? A senior official manipulating the data for the entire region. Overstating the figures to commit financial fraud. The aristocracy and senior naval figures in on the crime, to bolster finance, funding and deployments.

 

[Garnfellow]

Legacy sector data was a bit of a crazy Frankenstein developed by many different people at different times using different standards and rules.

The T5 Second Survey was intended to review and normalize 1105 sector data for Charted Space. Part of that T5SS process was to review the economic clout (which is closely aligned with Pop and TL) of various sectors to make sure they were in line with canon and Marc's vision of the OTU. The results are hosted on Traveller Map.

If, say, a backwater like Magyar had a bigger economy than the Solomani Rim, then Magyar would have been reduced in size since the Rim is supposed to be an economic powerhouse. I am pretty sure that the T5SS intentionally reduced the population of Crucis to fit with the rest of the 1105 sectors. The T5SS has not yet reviewed data from other eras, and I suspect if it ever got around to 990 Crucis, that population would be similarly reduced.

So I don't think 590 billion sophonts were killed or disappeared between 990 and 1105 -- they were never really there in the first place. It was all a deeply unfortunate series of errors on the part of the IISS.

 

[Spinward Flow]

So I don't think 590 billion sophonts were killed or disappeared between 990 and 1105 -- they were never really there in the first place. It was all a deeply unfortunate series of errors on the part of the IISS.

Do not ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence ...?

 

[GypsyComet]

Sounds like an adventure/campaign hook.
"IISS records, including the First Survey, suggest this region held nearly a trillion sophonts as late as Imperial Year 400. The Second Survey reported a slight decline a century ago. A follow up five years ago found a different story. Not only do those worlds not have a trillion sophonts in residence, the 1101 report says they look like they never have had such populations. However, the region is politically unstable and fractured, so extensive ground work was not possible under the IISS banner. My office is working on an extensive records audit at the IISS Glimmerdrift offices that conducted all of the surveys. You are to proceed to the area in Crucis Margin and conduct ground level surveys as thorough as you can manage on the following worlds, and any nearby worlds your work suggests are relevant. Obviously, your work is open-ended, but I want a report, even an incomplete one, on this desk in two years time."

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

Deneb has 425 worlds and a population of 585 billion vs. 424 worlds for Crucis Margin. Once 30 worlds are "adjusted" to 1105 citizens: minus 602 billion = 67 billion in CM, the population seems "light".

@Garnfellow

T5SS process was to review the economic clout (which is closely aligned with Pop and TL) of various sectors to make sure they were in line with canon and Marc's vision of the OTU.

Thank you for providing the above insight which makes it more understandable. I'm now guessing that Crucis Margin was supposed to be an un-developed backwater, and looking at the maps, there are a lot of worlds that are 2 or 3 parsecs from another world which is not conducive to economic development or immigration.

Did the Second Survey (995-1065) ever go so far out of the Imperium that they would gather data in/on Crucis Margin worlds? Stefen (Crucis Margin 1135) is one of the nearest (formerly) high population worlds in Crucis Margin to the Imperium Ilaria (Glimmerdrift 0837) at 36 parsecs away. Abricot (Crucis 704) is only 18 parsecs from the Naval Base at Zuge (Ley 2137).

@Garnfellow So I don't think 590 billion sophonts were killed or disappeared between 990 and 1105 -- they were never really there in the first place. It was all a deeply unfortunate series of errors on the part of the IISS.​

So where did the IISS get the data? I'm not saying it was Aliens... I'm saying it was Hivers.

• Mar 23, 2022

Maybe it's a Hiver Psych operation to divert the Homicidal Herbivores (Lords of Thunder) Coreward and away from the Rimward friends of the Hand Shakers.

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

Sounds like an adventure/campaign hook.
"IISS records, including the First Survey, suggest this region held nearly a trillion sophonts as late as Imperial Year 400. The Second Survey reported a slight decline a century ago. A follow up five years ago found a different story. Not only do those worlds not have a trillion sophonts in residence, the 1101 report says they look like they never have had such populations. However, the region is politically unstable and fractured, so extensive ground work was not possible under the IISS banner. My office is working on an extensive records audit at the IISS Glimmerdrift offices that conducted all of the surveys. You are to proceed to the area in Crucis Margin and conduct ground level surveys as thorough as you can manage on the following worlds, and any nearby worlds your work suggests are relevant. Obviously, your work is open-ended, but I want a report, even an incomplete one, on this desk in two years time."

Wait a minute Chief, I'm on DETACHED DUTY.
Yes, and you have two years to show me why you deserve to drive this Type S Courier "Where Angels Fear to Tread". I expect occasional reports, too.

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

I would have to ask, but I think the decision was made to assume that MegaTraveller data was considered Second Survey if it was the only data available, so the MegaTraveller Journal #4 data for Gateway got lumped into the 1105 data set on Traveller Map. Also, note that its credits on Traveller Map include the authors of both MTJ#4 and Gateway to Destiny, so both versions are acknowledged.

MTJ#4 carried a GDW copyright and is under Marc's control, so it can be considered rare but official.

I haven't compared that MTJ #4 data to the 990 or 1105 UWP data to see what changes, if any, were made, because I'd either have to scan it and OCR it or input it myself.

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

Legacy sector data was a bit of a crazy Frankenstein developed by many different people at different times using different standards and rules.

The T5 Second Survey was intended to review and normalize 1105 sector data for Charted Space. Part of that T5SS process was to review the economic clout (which is closely aligned with Pop and TL) of various sectors to make sure they were in line with canon and Marc's vision of the OTU. The results are hosted on Traveller Map.

If, say, a backwater like Magyar had a bigger economy than the Solomani Rim, then Magyar would have been reduced in size since the Rim is supposed to be an economic powerhouse. I am pretty sure that the T5SS intentionally reduced the population of Crucis to fit with the rest of the 1105 sectors. The T5SS has not yet reviewed data from other eras, and I suspect if it ever got around to 990 Crucis, that population would be similarly reduced.

So I don't think 590 billion sophonts were killed or disappeared between 990 and 1105 -- they were never really there in the first place. It was all a deeply unfortunate series of errors on the part of the IISS.

Working through this, there are only 7 Sectors on Traveler Map that have Legacy 990 data and 1105 data. It sounds like only Crucis Margin is completely out of whack, Ley and Glimmerdrift having evolved through Sunbane and HIWG, and perhaps Gateway was somewhat normalized in the DGP MegaTraveller data that was retrofitted into the 1105 dataset.

 

[GypsyComet]

The eighth with political data for 990 is Lure, but it is still in development in all eras.

Gateway has 990 and 1120 legacy data (and the replaced JG stuff, of course), but no Atlas for 1105. The 1105 data is really just the 1120 data out of place. Not that Gateway changes very quickly until the Thunder come rolling in to shake up centuries of odd frontier stability.

Magyar's Sunbane data was lost, as far as I know, so pretty much everything for Magyar is a rebuild from the Atlas.

Crucis Margin is the odd duck. 990 is the only published data set. Glimmerdrift would be in the same condition, but it was within the boundaries of the Atlas.

 

[kilemall]

I can only assume the Imperial psychohistorians are “losing” the data for the realm’s good.

 

[GypsyComet]

The so-called Sunbane data had issues in some sectors, but a couple of them just didn't even make it into the early archives at all. Either Magyar or Daibei was one of the lost, IIRC.

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

The eighth with political data for 990 is Lure, but it is still in development in all eras.

Gateway has 990 and 1120 legacy data (and the replaced JG stuff, of course), but no Atlas for 1105. The 1105 data is really just the 1120 data out of place. Not that Gateway changes very quickly until the Thunder come rolling in to shake up centuries of odd frontier stability.

Magyar's Sunbane data was lost, as far as I know, so pretty much everything for Magyar is a rebuild from the Atlas.

Crucis Margin is the odd duck. 990 is the only published data set. Glimmerdrift would be in the same condition, but it was within the boundaries of the Atlas.

It sounds like the Gateway Domain project outline is (in order of effort required):
1) Ley Sector: Review 1105 Atlas data and update. Review and revise Ley Sector 990 QLI data to retcon it to fit the official 1105 Atlas data.
2) Glimmerdrift Sector: Review 1105 Atlas data and update. Review and revise Glimmer 990 QLI data to retcon it to fit the official 1105 Atlas data.
3) Gateway Sector: Review and adjust 1120 MT data by -15 years. Roll back the Lords of Thunder. Create 1105 baseline. Review and revise the 990 QLI data to retcon it to fit the fresh 1105 data.
4) Crucis Margin Sector: 1105 It looks like someone already built an almost new set of UWPs, but retained political boundaries. 990 QLI data UWP becomes almost irrelevant... there are no 590 Billion habitants to find. It seems like it would be easier take the 1105 data as a baseline and rebuild 990. I think the flavor could be saved, but maybe not the political power relationships.

#4 may actually be the easiest if 1105 data is canon.

 

[GypsyComet]

A fair assessment, though Ley may not need even that much.

The Lords of Thunder aren't holding territory in 1120 Gateway aside from occupied Renkard. They've already been benchmarked in Lure for 1105 and 990, and their one holding in Crucis Margin is an outpost that comes and goes. There shouldn't be any Thunder worlds in 1105 Gateway unless we replicate the outpost in Crucis Margin, and there isn't much need for that.

 

[atpollard]

590 billion ‘preppers’ hid from the Census takers.

 

[GypsyComet]

"Rough terrain" doesn't even start to describe those worlds...

 

[Kilgs]

I've been mucking around in 993 Crucis for a long time and was disappointed to see what they did with the sector but... I was not disappointed to see the population changes made.

Yes, as far as my excel sheets show, much of the GTD 993 data for CM was ported directly from Judges Guild UPPs. Although I always thought it might be amusing that someone rolled that up... looked at the paper... looked at the dice, smiled and then rolled for the next one.

"Let the GM figure out how they fit 80 billion people on one plant... I got dice to roll!"
>>>>>>>
Sidenote, I have on my "list of things to do" to retcon the 993 Crucis Margin using the new data as a guide! So wheee...!

EDIT--I should probably have noticed there was another page of comments... alas.

 

[Vargr Breath]

 

[BackworldTraveller]

There are many reasons for large scale population loss that have applied historically: War, Famine, Disease and deliberate/accidental Genocide have generally been relatively small contributors to population decline. The biggest are Economic Collapse and Ecological Collapse. These may follow (or cause) the first four. And economic collapse doesn't even have to be local. If the neighbour's economy stops importing your export you can be in trouble too.
e.g. I feel sorry for those sophont natives who live on a planet that the Imperium has decided to terraform! Suddenly all your native foodstuffs are dying off, the air is becoming incompatible and your life expectancy is dropping like a stick.