Tech questions

[Jamus]

Things I use IMTU and have thought should have been in OTU.

Replicants "I want more life..F****r!!" roy wants more life.
Clones .. "who am I?" "you are number 12"
Androids .. Im a Asamov fan I Really think robots will become household appliances.
Gyrojet weapons we have them now and I would think they would make great zero-G weapons.
Star Gates any civ that could create a J-drive one would think could make a J-Gate.
G.E.L.F.s Genetically engineered life form. imagine the possibilities and terrors of this science.
Bio-ware/cyber-ware both are a real possibility. just watched a show about cyber eyes being developed to cure blindness on discovery. of course cloned eyes may be easier.
A.I. another thing that may not be too far off in our future.. again could have scary consiquences.

will think of a more as the muse allows.

 

[clementk]

I thought clones, some form of androids, all the uplifted species (which are kind've gelfs?), and AI were all in the OTU. (or at least MT on) Aren't snubbies basically gyrojets? Designed for zero-g at the least.

Nothing wrong with putting in what you like in YTU though. OTU though seems quite fossilized at this point.

Casey (who's finding out even a current AIBO isn't possible at today's TL under CT / T20 TLs)

 

[Jamus]

Allow me to expand on some of my ideas.

gyrojet weapons. what im thinking is the rocket gun. basically the ammo is mini rockets with exploding warheads.. could have proximity, impact, or density fuses. initial charge fires the projectile from the barrel and gives it spin while secondary charge imparts speed, spin, and hitting power. when it arrives on target it explodes much like a grenade mangleing flesh, bones, and organs. imagine having a grenade explode inside of you.

also think WH40K bolters.

G.E.L.F.s imagine a gelf designed for jungle combat. maybe designed by a megacorp or high tech government as a watchdog and combining human thought with sheer animal cunning. it might be chameleon skinned with natural armor and weapons, it is venomous and bred with a natural hatred of life, a pure killing instinct...what if it began to resent being a slave.

Replicants!! why send your sons and daughters to die in brutal wars or colonizing wilderness planets when you could send replicants? they are perfect for any job and totally expendable. best of all they are conditioned and programmed to serve and die at command so they dont mind serving man...or do they?

Clones. what if you died and someone made a new you...would it be you or an imposter? would you know the difference? what if someone made a clone of your friend, your wife, your dog? what if the clones somehow gained control of a lab and started making more of themselves? how would it be to live on a planet where no one was born but everyone was made in huge birthing factories, everyone looks like brothers and sisters. everyone is the same.

StarGates a permenant jump tunnel between two systems and powered by broadcast from power stations in orbit around the sun. pay a fee and jump from system to system even in a 10ton fighter. of course jumpgates would only link the richest and most important worls so there is still a need for the brave scout and the cunning free trader who push back the frontier so that more stargates can be built.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Accelerator rifles and Assault Rocket Launchers are gyrojets.

All of the others are in the OTU somewhere.

 

[womble]

'...should have been in OTU...'

Possibly, though 'should have' is perhaps a bit strong. Putting the emphasis on gene-tech (necessary for clones/replicants/GELFs) and cyberware wouldn't produce the same universe at all, in the same way as having instantaneous J-drive, or FTL comms would make the OTU unrecognisable.

Nevertheless, the hooks and features of all those systems would still allow good games to be run, they just wouldn't be Traveller, in my book, they'd be TransHuman Space, or CyberPunk, or some other milieu/genre.

In the OTU-as-is, I think the major reasons for the lack of development of clone/skinjob/cyber tech are social (like the situation with Psionics). Perhaps the ethical questions about 'replicant rights' have been answered with 'They have the same rights as other sentients', so skin-jobs just aren't worth making when there's already an abundant and free source of sentients to oppress. Maybe they went through a period of cyber-enhancement and ran up against something like CP2020's 'cyberpsychosis' which was deemed too dangerous to risk.

It may be that you could make a good story out of the burgeoning of these industries as mores change over time, or of the clash of cultures when the Empire scouts out a Pocket Polity which has gone down the route of genetic or cybernetic enhancement of the organism. Herbert in his Dune series had lots of secret societies that broke the rules about thinking machines and messing with genomes; their conflict with the mainstream was a rich source of story. Some similar themes are explored in Holistic Design's Fading Suns RPG.

Gyrojet weapons were pretty much dropped from development because they couldn't compete with conventional firearms. Maybe they'd be back on the cards if we were fighting in 0-G environments, but I suspect they'll be competing with lasers by then, so they're still marginal. OTU does, though, as Andrew says, have gyrojet weapons. One of the problems with having an explosive payload do most of the damage (rather than the K.E. of the round) is fitting the payload in. Sure, we've 20mm grenades being developed for deployment now, but magazine capacity is always going to be restricted, and no one is expecting direct hits on evading targets with 'em.

Stargates. I'd argue against "any civ that could create a J-drive...could make a J-Gate" pretty strongly. The energy, engineering and resource requirements for such an undertaking would mean that a Gate of Jn would be several tech levels higher than a Drive of the same number. That's if the very nature of J-space doesn't mean that the concept of a 'tunnel' through it is largely meaningless. Add to that the consequences of the gate being shut down for whatever reason (no ship plying this incredible trade route for profit would have a J-drive) and you have a strong argument for there being no or very few Gates.

Now, possibly, these things (along with competent, sensible-sized computing would have been in Traveller from the beginning if the RPG phenomenon had waited a decade or so, but they weren't, and, for me, they should be the strange and either distasteful or awe-inspiring, not the familiar and accepted. It's a flavour thing. A game with Reps and Wi-Ref and Stargates doesn't taste bad (I've enjoyed games with all of these things in them), it just wouldn't taste like Traveller to me.

 

[mike wightman]

There are jumpgates in T4, they just have to be built on planets to make them work by the looks of things. As to what their TL is, who knows?

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Doesn't Grandfather use a kind of stargate to get to and from his pocket universe?

 

[robject]

Matter portals become feasible in the higher reaches of MT's tech charts -- beyond Imperial tech though.

Of course, I still used them briefly for a Rebellion-era campaign. They were dismantled as the war heated up.

 

[mike wightman]

Well, the T4 jump gates may or may not be Ancient artifacts. The portals to and from pocket universes have a maximum range of 36 light minutes from the prime portal. Technically you (well, Grandfather) could build a network of pocket universes and portals to span a solar system or even reach from one system to another.

 

[Flynn]

Details for Stargates within the constraints of OTU tech can be found in FFS, if I recall correctly. And yes, Grandfather did use portals to access his pocket universe (and various places within it, too).

Hope this helps,
Flynn

 

[Jamus]

good posts all, especially Womble's

I think most of the things i mentioned are things one would find toward the center of the civ and become less common as one approached the frontiers. Stargates are really every bit as probable as J-drives and since they would be powered by solar relay energy is not a problem.

 

[savage]

Excellent thread Jamus.

I too have Replicants, Stargates, JumpGates, androids and other features in my universe.

Androids (avatar) have been in my campaign from day one. They just make sense. The most effective starship will be the one that can extend itself as needed. Traveller has had androids since Digest and CT.

Replicants make sense. No prime directive here folks. Shorter life expectancies are the probably issue...but I also believe we'd see a "good at 1 think" result from building humans.

For Jumpgates ya have to like the J-36 tiered gates. Its just too good.

Savage

 

[alanb]

My take on things:

Replicants: Pointless.

Clones: Mostly pointless. A clone is a twin of the original donor. They are distinct individuals, with distinct memories and experiences. Unless, of course, they were created to be harvested for organs.

Androids: Sex toys. Mostly useless for anything else.

Gyrojet weapons: Probably. Who cares?

Star Gates: I wouldn't mix them with J-Drives. A universe built around them would be easy. I've experimented with one such design.

G.E.L.F.s: Yawn. If you use non-carbon based life, you get nanotech. Of course they exist, but who cares?

Bio-ware/cyber-ware: Medical technology. As boring as gelfs.

A.I.: People tend to have the wrong idea about what this means. On one level it's entirely pointless. On another level it's entirely mundane. Guess which one exists in MTU (including my version of the OTU?)

---

To summarise: none of these things are particularly interesting. Several are silly, and the rest are routine background detail.

 

[Jamus]

Replicants: pointless? when that Terran strike cruiser burns out your drives and sends a squad of skin job assault troops over to sort you out you may have a different view of replicants. faster than human stronger than human more cunning than human and totally fearless, the perfect, expendable soldiers kept on ice onboard warships and only revived to fight in boarding operations. like any munition if they are expended they can be replaced.

Clones: just thought it would be kinda a neat thing to throw in there. guess i was inspired by the movie "Imposter". good movie!

Androids: absolutely correct, other than tools and such they are mostly menial servants and IMU background.

Gyrojets: I care. they are neat and would make a pretty good assault or vac weapon. chances are they would be more deadly than a laser.

Stargates: you have to mix J-Gates and J-drives J-gates dont build themselves and as I said would probably only connect the most densely populated and economically important worlds. everything of the route is frontier. at least IMU

G.E.L.F.s: again you would care if you entered a ship where an experiment had been being transported and it had gotten loose. perhaps a certain Mega-corp or Empire has a penchant for hugely terrifying and brutal G.E.L.F. assault troops. something 8 foot tall scaled and driven by a killer instinct and a desire to serve its masters.

Bio/cyberware: seems like something that is going to happen.

A.I. : Scout ships that pilot themselves... robots that can pass for human.. endless possibilities and endless adventure hooks.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Jamus:
Replicants: pointless? when that Terran strike cruiser burns out your drives

"when" that Terran strike cruiser...

That's a big "when".

more cunning than human and totally fearless, the perfect, expendable soldiers kept on ice onboard warships and only revived to fight in boarding operations. like any munition if they are expended they can be replaced.

Clearly they _aren't_ "more cunning than human". Otherwise they wouldn't be "expendable". At least not for very long.

It's also not clear that they can do anything that a robot and a human operator can't do.

G.E.L.F.s: again you would care if you entered a ship where an experiment had been being transported and it had gotten loose. perhaps a certain Mega-corp or Empire has a penchant for hugely terrifying and brutal G.E.L.F. assault troops. something 8 foot tall scaled and driven by a killer instinct and a desire to serve its masters.

I'd be more worried about bio-engineered micro-organisms, including nanotech.

A.I. : Scout ships that pilot themselves... robots that can pass for human..

"robots that can pass for human" are androids. That is, sex toys. We've already discussed them.

Scout ships that pilot themselves aren't anything particularly clever. Just really big probes. OK, a bit more independent than usual, but still just probes. Incidentally, there's little point in sending out a probe that doesn't report back to you in as timely a fashion as possible.

 

[alanb]

I had better add some explanation about what I am trying to say here.

Basically, I think most of these things can either be assumed to exist in whatever TU you care to use, or, if they are absent, it's for good reason. That is, none of these technologies are going to change things enough for them to not be assumed or ignored.

Frankly, my Traveller games are about people, not about gadgets. If you want to use big words, they are about futures that are socially, rather than technologically, determined. In slightly smaller words, they are about how tools are used, rather than what the tools can do.

And, by the way, I still think that my military doctrine would run rings about yours and all your silly replicants, gelfs and so on. <superior sniff!!>

As for stargates: I see them as being an alternate FTL technology, not a supplementary one. Yes, they _do_ require you to get to where you want to build them the hard way. This makes them perfect for games where you want the map to have boundaries which the PCs can't pass. They also work well for more wargame-y uses.

 

[womble]

Jamus said:

...good posts all, especially Womble's...

Why thankee.

I think most of the things i mentioned are things one would find toward the center of the civ and become less common as one approached the frontiers.

I think stuff like cybertech and genetic supersoldiers would be as likely on the borderlands where they would impart significant survival benefits. The mega-engineering projects would be centred where the money and people are.

Stargates are really every bit as probable as J-drives...

Extrapolating stargates from J-drive is a bit like extrapolating tractor beams from Gravitic drives. Sure, it'll happen, but it's surprisingly far up the tech tree. Basically beyond Imperium tech. Sure, Ancients and Grandfather have used 'em, but they're not a core tech of the Imperium.

...since they would be powered by solar relay energy is not a problem

First you have to develop the technology to collect that much power from the sun and handle it. Then you have to consider the impact of that technology on activities other than transport, like solar system defense, power grids on planets and the rest. A Traveller universe with Human (or Vargr or Zho)-built stargates would be quite radically different from published Traveller material, and you're off on your own, largely.

Actually, I was going to explain more, but in the end this is a 'what is Traveller' thread. For some people it's a rule system that lets them build their own universes, for others it's the milieu of the Third Imperium, its history and its successors. I am firmly in the latter camp; the Honor Harrington milieu will never be Traveller for me, even if it uses T20 basic rules. Actually, the fact that there are so darn many 'Traveller' rulesets argues quite strongly that it's not the rulese that defines the game, but the milieu.

 

[Slink182]

Regarding J-Gates, IMTU I do use them in conjunction with standard J-drives. Basically, it's a pseudo-handwave on my part (much like Minovski Particles are handwaved in the anime Mobile Suit Gundam). Basically, I explain it as follows:

Entering jump requires an energized jump field that's generated by the jump grid built into the skin of a starship. Grid energization can occur using either an onboard powerplant, or an external induced power supply. Most powerplants IMU isn't able to produce much more than a J-2 field, with military ships able to produce upwards to J-4 typically. J-Gates, otoh, can induce the grids to a much higher state (don't ask how - this is part of the handwave) and can impart upwards to a J-12 field without any major issues, or an upper extent of J-18 but with inherent risks from the "overcharging" of the grid (hull failures, misformed jump fields, misjumps). Most travel moves from gate to gate (acting as hubs), then smaller jumping to the final destination.

Of course, IMU there are a few capital class ships capable of generating enough power to effectively create their own J-Gates, but they are rare.