Tech Levels in Traveller5

[robject]

T5 moves the ancient markers between TLs 1 through 4. Just a little bit, though. It uses decimals within TL 1 and TL 3 to note interesting stages inside the TL.

Note that the years given are Eurocentric, just as they've been in previous Traveller rules.

TL 0 - Stone age.
TL 1 - Bronze Age [3500 BC]
TL 1.3 - Iron Age [1300 BC]
TL 1.6 - Middle Ages [600 AD]
TL 2 - Age of Sail [1500 AD] - Printing, algebra.
TL 3 - Industrial Revolution [1700 AD] - Calculus, musket, cannon.
TL 3.3 - 1800 AD - Steam
TL 3.6 - 1850 AD - Rail
TL 4 - Mechanization [1900 AD]

TL 5+ appear the same as before.

 

[robject]

Muskets and cannon are firmly planted by name in TL 3.

Cannon would seem to be 16th century. Moreover, note that if "Age of Sail" is TL 2, then this would support that.

I can see muskets being an 18C thing. That might put arquebuses at TL 2.

This might be just one of those things, but it's worth a suggestion in the errata.

 

[Reban]

Mass produced Flintlock Muskets are an 18th century thing.

Matchlocks (and other variations) fit the 1600 and could be said to be TL2.5

Hand guns, arquebuses, fusils and muskets are all variations on the theme of an unrifled tube with a mechanism and some mean to fire it from the hand or shoulder.

For development through the TLs I'd look at the mechanism more than anything else.

 

[whulorigan]

Cannon and "Hand Gonnes" were in use at least as early as the mid- to late-1300's during the Hundred Years War in Europe. (The Chinese had black powder earlier, but as was noted above, the chart is Euro-centric).

The earliest documentable matchlock-style mechanism comes from a German document dated to about the year 1420. This was probably a simple S-hook with no spring. The "Snaplock-Matchlock" (triggered by a button) was in use by the late 1400's thru the 1500's. The final matchlock evolution (with trigger-lever attached to an internal spring) is in existence by the 1500's.

Wheellocks are in existence by 1500, and the earliest "flintlock/firelock" (the Snaphaunce) is available by the very late 1500's to 1600.

The "Standard" Flintlock/Firelock" of later times (the French Lock) has made its appearance by the late 1600's.

 

[kilemall]

T5 moves the ancient markers between TLs 1 through 4. Just a little bit, though. It uses decimals within TL 1 and TL 3 to note interesting stages inside the TL.

Note that the years given are Eurocentric, just as they've been in previous Traveller rules.

TL 0 - Stone age.
TL 1 - Bronze Age [3500 BC]
TL 1.3 - Iron Age [1300 BC]
TL 1.6 - Middle Ages [600 AD]
TL 2 - Age of Sail [1500 AD] - Printing, algebra.
TL 3 - Industrial Revolution [1700 AD] - Calculus, musket, cannon.
TL 3.3 - 1800 AD - Steam
TL 3.6 - 1850 AD - Rail
TL 4 - Mechanization [1900 AD]

TL 5+ appear the same as before.

I liked the organization by energy dev better, with 2 sail, 3 water wheel/industrialization, 4 being steam and 5 being IC engine.

TL1 should have an energy system of animal domestication and information system of paper (0.something being stone tablets).

 

[atpollard]

I liked the organization by energy dev better, with 2 sail, 3 water wheel/industrialization, 4 being steam and 5 being IC engine.

TL1 should have an energy system of animal domestication and information system of paper (0.something being stone tablets).

I agree with the Energy Source comment, but pressing leaves of papyrus into a scroll or writing on thin animal hides seems doable at TL 0.

I would actually argue that a large TL 0 settlement (like the Aztec) could hand cut wood blocks and use a screw press (like for crushing olives to make oil) to achieve papyrus printing.
[The trick is having a need and coming up with the idea ... they have the technology.]

 

[Epee]

The Aztecs had a screw press, paper, and a phonetic alphabet?

Part of the problem regarding firearms is that there is no "musket" defined as such in the gunmaker. If you take a musket to be a shotgun then at TL 3 it becomes standard with Prototype versions found as far back as TL 1 and Early versions, Matchlocks, etc. in TL 2.

 

[atpollard]

The Aztecs had a screw press, paper, and a phonetic alphabet?

No, they had a large settlement (as opposed to suggesting that a 15 member extended family of hunter-gatherers might have the resources to set up a printing press).

They may have had a screw press for crushing fruit to extract the juice/oil ... I admit an incomplete knowledge of Aztec agricultural technology. However, the Aztec were a society that persisted in the pre-metal era until the AD 1500's. The screw press goes back at least to pre-AD 100 for crushing olives. It was not beyond Aztec technology to manufacture. If the press really bothers you, then just use the woodcuts like a modern rubber stamp ... they can press an inked block against a flat surface.

They did not have paper, but the Egyptians had papyrus as far back as 4000 BC.

Printing does not require a phonetic alphabet, only a written language. The Aztec had a written language.

What they lacked, was a need for large scale printing.
It is a solution in search of a problem.

[The Renaissance finally created a problem that could use the solution ... expanded literacy and a shortage of copyists to meet the demand for books. Add in large scale urbanism and cheap movable type and you have a 'need' for a newspaper.]

 

[Epee]

Read "Guns, Germs, and Steel".

I'm not knocking the Aztecs but technologies don't spring into being. They require, as you say, need. But they also require "building blocks" aquired from other technologies and, in some cases, a bit of luck in cultural developement.

For example, it is widely stated that the Chinese first developed "type" printing. While this statement is somewhat misleading, the Chinese did in fact use carved blocks to press ink-covered, written language characters onto paper. It was pretty much a dead-end technology. Not because the Chinese had so few literates but because their pictographic writing system would require thousands of different blocks be on hand in order to print complete "books".

For the European press to arise, not only were the social conditions you mention necessary but you needed a relatively cheap printing media, paper (not too thick, not too thin, not too course) and this is only developed if you have a steadily escalating need to disseminate information. Plus you needed the screw press tech from cultures that squeezed grapes and, more importantly, olives. You needed a written languge that could be expressed in a managable number of characters, A certain level of metalurgy in order to create type easily (casting) and cheaply (recyclable lead) and a fairly well developed ink technology, again from a steadily increasing need to disseminate information and requiring some knowlege of chemical refinement.

The Minoans seemed to have developed and use in at least one instance, block printing with their Liner A script, characters pressed into mud using pre-carved stamps. This is probably about as far as the Aztecs could have pressed this tech. Sure, if you could zap yourself back to the Aztec Empire circa 1490AD, provided they didn't cut your heart out, you could have their craftsmen build you a clunky but workable printing press. You might not have anything to print on and you might not have any ink, but you'd have a printing press.

 

[atpollard]

Read "Guns, Germs, and Steel".

I'm not knocking the Aztecs but technologies don't spring into being. They require, as you say, need. But they also require "building blocks" aquired from other technologies and, in some cases, a bit of luck in cultural developement.

For example, it is widely stated that the Chinese first developed "type" printing. While this statement is somewhat misleading, the Chinese did in fact use carved blocks to press ink-covered, written language characters onto paper. It was pretty much a dead-end technology. Not because the Chinese had so few literates but because their pictographic writing system would require thousands of different blocks be on hand in order to print complete "books".

For the European press to arise, not only were the social conditions you mention necessary but you needed a relatively cheap printing media, paper (not too thick, not too thin, not too course) and this is only developed if you have a steadily escalating need to disseminate information. Plus you needed the screw press tech from cultures that squeezed grapes and, more importantly, olives. You needed a written languge that could be expressed in a managable number of characters, A certain level of metalurgy in order to create type easily (casting) and cheaply (recyclable lead) and a fairly well developed ink technology, again from a steadily increasing need to disseminate information and requiring some knowlege of chemical refinement.

The Minoans seemed to have developed and use in at least one instance, block printing with their Liner A script, characters pressed into mud using pre-carved stamps. This is probably about as far as the Aztecs could have pressed this tech. Sure, if you could zap yourself back to the Aztec Empire circa 1490AD, provided they didn't cut your heart out, you could have their craftsmen build you a clunky but workable printing press. You might not have anything to print on and you might not have any ink, but you'd have a printing press.

Acknowledged with one caveat: "Is it applicable to a people that arrive on a distant world by interstellar spacecraft (or evolve on an alien world and make contact with an interstellar civilization) and for some undisclosed reason are at TL 0-7*?"

* [TL 8+ being largely speculation]

 

[Epee]

In questioning Mark in a private email about Starship developement tech level he was quite clear that certain technologies are "anchored" to invention within a given tech level but that "Experimental", "Prototype", and "Early" represent those devices built with the direction of someone from a higher technology in lower tech societies.

His example was that a time traveler could go back to the American Civil War period and with a description and a little direction have a working submachinegun built. It would be much heavier, and bulkier; not as effective and far less reliable, but it would be possible.

So, in those terms, yes, a TL 0 base could probably produce a non-metallic printing press and a crude paint that you could press onto animal skins.

 

[atpollard]

So, in those terms, yes, a TL 0 base could probably produce a non-metallic printing press and a crude paint that you could press onto animal skins.

Still hating on TL 0 papyrus scrolls, huh?

Seriously, a great point and an interesting discussion.
Thank you for sharing Marc's example.

 

[robject]

a TL 0 base could probably produce a non-metallic printing press and a crude paint that you could press onto animal skins.

Now that sounds like fun. Can't wait to integrate that idea into a Patron Encounter.

 

[Epee]

Still hating on TL 0 papyrus scrolls, huh?

Seriously, a great point and an interesting discussion.
Thank you for sharing Marc's example.

Ok, use papyrus, but only if it grows there...:devil:

"Humm, somewhere on this planet there may be a plant we can strip, dry, pound together and then, using cloth covering, let it dry under flat-cut weighted rocks."

"...or we can just go kill something..."

 

[atpollard]

"...or we can just go kill something..."

You don't watch Mountain Men and see what 'Tom' has to do to make a brain tanned animal skin.

 

[aramis]

Read "Guns, Germs, and Steel".

I'm not knocking the Aztecs but technologies don't spring into being. They require, as you say, need. But they also require "building blocks" aquired from other technologies and, in some cases, a bit of luck in cultural developement.

For example, it is widely stated that the Chinese first developed "type" printing. While this statement is somewhat misleading, the Chinese did in fact use carved blocks to press ink-covered, written language characters onto paper. It was pretty much a dead-end technology. Not because the Chinese had so few literates but because their pictographic writing system would require thousands of different blocks be on hand in order to print complete "books".

For the European press to arise, not only were the social conditions you mention necessary but you needed a relatively cheap printing media, paper (not too thick, not too thin, not too course) and this is only developed if you have a steadily escalating need to disseminate information. Plus you needed the screw press tech from cultures that squeezed grapes and, more importantly, olives. You needed a written languge that could be expressed in a managable number of characters, A certain level of metalurgy in order to create type easily (casting) and cheaply (recyclable lead) and a fairly well developed ink technology, again from a steadily increasing need to disseminate information and requiring some knowlege of chemical refinement.

The Minoans seemed to have developed and use in at least one instance, block printing with their Liner A script, characters pressed into mud using pre-carved stamps. This is probably about as far as the Aztecs could have pressed this tech. Sure, if you could zap yourself back to the Aztec Empire circa 1490AD, provided they didn't cut your heart out, you could have their craftsmen build you a clunky but workable printing press. You might not have anything to print on and you might not have any ink, but you'd have a printing press.

You don't need metallurgy at all. You can carve woodblocks into moveable type. You can cast clay ones, too. (Carve negative into a waxed slate or board. Press clay into it, let dry. Remove clay, and fire, possibly glazing, scraping the glaze from the working face before glaze firing.)

It can be done entirely with stone/bone tools.

The issue for Aztec/Nahuatl is that it is primarily logograms, with some phonograms in a syllabary, and some rebus writing as well. (ancientscripts.com)

Mayan has a more refined syllabary... but...
The issue is similar to the Korean Hangul, except that instead of single sounds per component, it's single syllable per component. 76 syllables KNOWN, most with 3 forms, and those forms are usually (1) a full block form, (2) a half block form, and either (3a) a quarter block form or (3b) a 1/3 block form. A single word usually fills one block. Mayan also still has logograms.

Hangul, for reference, uses individual sound signs (phonograms), then compresses a syllable to a single block...

 

[Epee]

You don't need metallurgy at all. You can carve woodblocks into moveable type. You can cast clay ones, too. (Carve negative into a waxed slate or board. Press clay into it, let dry. Remove clay, and fire, possibly glazing, scraping the glaze from the working face before glaze firing.)

It can be done entirely with stone/bone tools.

.

Let me know how that works for you.:coffeesip:

 

[atpollard]

You don't need metallurgy at all. You can carve woodblocks into moveable type. You can cast clay ones, too. (Carve negative into a waxed slate or board. Press clay into it, let dry. Remove clay, and fire, possibly glazing, scraping the glaze from the working face before glaze firing.)

Let's really go wild and press letters/symbols into clay and then pour natural rubber over them to create a raised rubber stamp for printing.

 

[Reban]

"...or we can just go kill something..."

You mean to make parchment from?

 

[robject]

You mean to make parchment from?

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