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Tech Level Differences

I am curious how everyone handles it when their groups go to worlds that have a lower TLs than the worlds that the groups are from? Is there any code of non-interference (ala Star Trek), or is it a free for all, regardless of any impact to the native culture?

I am specifically interested in the possible introduction of high TL weapons and equipment into a less developed society.

Anyone care to comment how they handle this?
 
Originally posted by bobbycondo:
I am curious how everyone handles it when their groups go to worlds that have a lower TLs than the worlds that the groups are from? Is there any code of non-interference (ala Star Trek), or is it a free for all, regardless of any impact to the native culture?
?
If they want to play with the big boys, they play by the big boys rules.
Only worlds that are interdicted have a Prime Directive thing going on.
As far as advanced weapons, ask yourself "is there a rough analogy here on Terra at TL 8."
Could Somalia (current effective tech level around 3) support f-16s. No. Can they support TL6-7 assault rifles and mortars?
Hell, yes. (And do they ever) But they pay a very high price. Saudi Arabia is TL 6 or so, but uses F-15Es (TL 8) but require constant support from the US to maintain them. Botswana, TL 5 or so, uses equipment that, for the most part, would not have been so out of place in WWII. They are not willing to foot the bill for equipment they do not need.
Difference? Somalia is completely balkanized (Gov 7) and desperately poor but supports (barely) 4 TLs above
The Saudis support 2 TLs above but it is pricey but their prestige requires it and they can actually use phenomenal planes. They are gov 3.
Botswana is a democracy (barely but it is) and prefers to spend money on useful things (like infrastructure) (They have one of the highest per capita GNPs in Africa)
It depends on who is around them (if friendly, they will be at their own tech, if it is hostile, then there is a greater likelihood of splurging on the armaments), government type (non-democratic governments love military spending because it is usually the only thing that can either take them out of or keeps them in power)
 
Originally posted by bobbycondo:
I am curious how everyone handles it when their groups go to worlds that have a lower TLs than the worlds that the groups are from? Is there any code of non-interference (ala Star Trek), or is it a free for all, regardless of any impact to the native culture?

I am specifically interested in the possible introduction of high TL weapons and equipment into a less developed society.

Anyone care to comment how they handle this?
In general, there is no Star Drek-like Prime Directive. Restricted worlds are the one exception, where (for whatever reason) outsiders are not supposed to go. Everywhere else, the TL can be considered the planets production capability, just because a world is TL-6 doesn't mean it can't have troops with TL-8 assault rifles. Instellarms, for instance, would happily sell them if the planet were buying. Chances are that the locals have seen, know of, higher tech equipment, even if their own planet doesn't have the capacity to produce it for whatever reason.

StrikerFan
 
MT++, excellent examples of the differences in tech levels.

I'm from the UK, but I live in the United States now, and on a recent trip home, I was sort of stunned by the higher tech level (if you like) that the UK seems to have when it comes to personal communications (mobile phones, with the 3G tech that is only just starting to come into the US) and in entertainment technology (the stuff with the interactive digital tv was cool). Not that the US can't do this stuff, but it's just a year or two behind the UK.

Don't take offence, anyone- just an observation.
 
Personally I would make a 2D throw versus the world's law level plus one. If the throw is higher than the required number then the introduction of high tech weapons and equipment is legal. If the throw is equal to or lower the the required nember then such transactions are illegal and the planetary government will arrest and punish the lawbreakers.
Roll this throw secretly and allow the PC's to find out about a worlds importation laws if they specifically ask about it and if some one has the requisite legal skill.
Of course the planetary government might be using a sting operation or PC's may discover that the money they've been paid for this wonderful merchandise is a forgery.
;)
Imperials do not get involved unless the Rules of War are broken and then the Imperials come down hard on such lawbreakers (time to generate new characters, those have been imprisoned for many decades).
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You asked...

Randy
 
Somewhere in canon it mentioned that there is a 4 TL limit for selling HT stuff downward. Other parts of canon don't make any mention of it.

IMTU, it is mostly a matter of "Can they use it" as opposed to "Is it legal?" most of the time, but some worlds actually ban imports of HT goods, for a variety of reasons. So long as the world makes the Imperial Taxes, in both men and money, and aren't violating openly the rights of citizens of the imperium, the imperium doesn't care what they do locally and sustainably.
 
Originally posted by Stephen Herron:
MT++, excellent examples of the differences in tech levels.

I'm from the UK, but I live in the United States now, and on a recent trip home, I was sort of stunned by the higher tech level (if you like) that the UK seems to have when it comes to personal communications (mobile phones, with the 3G tech that is only just starting to come into the US) and in entertainment technology (the stuff with the interactive digital tv was cool). Not that the US can't do this stuff, but it's just a year or two behind the UK.

Don't take offence, anyone- just an observation.
Interesting observation. This could be an indication on how fast technological innovations propogate through a population, as opposed to actual tech level of a nation. Population size, government support, government control, regional diversity, and market place competition are some of the controlling factors.

[Sidenote] While vacationing in the Netherlands I watched alot of BBC 1 & 2, mostly because they were the only channels with 24/7 english programming. One thing I noticed that the BIG fad was mobile phone text messaging. There was several new stories about it, including tales of 200 to 300 pounds monthly charges just for text messaging. There was even a gameshow based on the TM. IIRC one of the big prizes was three monthes of free phone services.
 
The whole techlevel thing is very flexible and has it's own.. um... inaccuracies.

Predicting things like this forum and cable internet in most homes. And the fact that computing power in those homes easily outstrips that used to put the first man on the moon....

Well even Bill Gates honestly believed that no PC would ever need 640k of RAM.

Just the same The Electronics Tech levels for CT hardly kept pace with the Real world advances. As far as E-tech goes. we are probably pushing the original CT's tech 10 or 11. Whereas for the rest we lack some of the things that we were supposed to have a tech level 9 and in this new millenium.

Not MWM's fault however. in 1977 there were many people who doubted humaniti would live to see the end of the eighties let alone that they personally would see the new millenium.

We are living in the age of some of the science fiction of my youth... some things they got right. Others...

but anyway. The 'average tech level' of a planet will not tell you much about what certain elites have at their personal disposal Nor...will it tell you which techs are below or above that 'average' This is one of those places were you are free to use your creativity I guess. Heh.

Garf.
 
What, no one has seen the aircars floating by on the way to work? We were supposed to be at TL10 by now, Lining on the Moon and Mars, taking to the stars in a big way. The TLs were a guide to use, Think how widely the TL differences are on this ball of rock. TL11 in info tech, while stuck in TL8 for transportation. Most of the third world is TL5 or at best 6. You will find this on most worlds to visit that are spread out.
If you go to different areas selling high tech arms, Gun running, best not expect to deal with the most upstanding people around. The people are desprate for survival, or despots who see you as a witness. Good background for adventures, but not a long life.

------------------------------
In the end, Murphy will rule
 
Remember that along borders between polities, armies might be expected to repel an invasion by a high-tech rival polity even if their world is of a low TL; so a wise interstellat government would either garrison high-tech troops to protect the world (IMTU the Solar Triumvirate does this), supply the local ruler with high-tech guns (IRL both Cold War superpowers used to lend "military aid" to their allies) or send high-tech troops as cadres for lower-TL forces (IMTU the Alliance does this, and tries to develop a semi-independant tech base on the colonies as well to preserve local autonomy and to shorten supply lines).

And as said before, a nation in the state of war/tention and/or with a warlike government could easily have far higher military TL than civilian/local production TL.
 
Ultimately all low tech worlds with higher tech neighbours will be devoid of population. If you examine the passenger availability rules in CT people will gravitate to the highest tech world.

Unless there are imigration restrictions (such as possessing skills to the advantage of the higher tech world) these worlds will see a population increase over time and a corresponding decrease on the lower tech worlds.

The alterantive is that the returning vactioners or those unable to get a permanent visa/work permit and canny traders selling higher tech goods for profit will cause a quicker TL advance on the lower tech world than would normally be the case.

Ultimately there must be an averaging of tech levels or a mass migration. My current thoughts on MTU is that I should artificially restrict TL in all but a few special cases to between TL 9/10 - TL13/14, as without a Prime Directive (and Traveller canonically doesn't seem to have such on a general basis) free trade and free movement of people will result in this situation.

Ummmm. . . Think that went a bit off topic, sorry.
 
IMTU most low-TL worlds are developing colonies; they simply don't have yet the technological and industrial basis for higher TL production. So the population use alot of imported finished goods and export raw resources; developed worlds import raw resources and export products. And yes, low TL worlds improve in TL over time unless they lose economical value, and then their population is reduced by immigration (if they have money to immigrate; otherwise they DO have an economical value, as extremely cheap workforce).
 
IMTU TL measures local industrial manufacturing ability, it doesn't mean you won't find grav vehicles on a TL5 world.
This is how it was intended for CT, YMMV ;)

Consider this example, the world of Thisbe in the Trin's Veil subsector of the Spinward Marches is a desert world that has undertaken the long term project of diverting large numbers of frozen water and gas asteroids to the planetary surface with the aim of improving its hydrographic and atmosphere ratings.

Can you guess the world's TL?


It's TL5.
 
In terms of what your players can use it matters what universe you're running. TNE, the players can bring whatever they can get their grubby mits on, as they can ground ship anyplace thats not shooting at them. In CT your players will, or more likely, should have to land at the starport. If it's a starport with Imperial marines patrolling the extrality line then many gauss and plasma weapons pointed at them by men and women in battledress will restrict them to the planet local law level if they want to see more than the starports lounge area. MT has a happy blend of the two as I suspect 1248 will have. Anyway, it's your traveller universe thus YMMV. If it's becomming a problem in your game however that's something else. My players seem to have discovered though, the more ironmongery they cart around, the more ironmongery they seem to run into. Also, I don't adhere too closely to Tech levels as I consider a worlds Tech Level rating its "sustainable" tech level.
 
Originally posted by bobbycondo:
I am curious how everyone handles it when their groups go to worlds that have a lower TLs than the worlds that the groups are from? Is there any code of non-interference (ala Star Trek), or is it a free for all, regardless of any impact to the native culture?

I am specifically interested in the possible introduction of high TL weapons and equipment into a less developed society.

Anyone care to comment how they handle this?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Mssr. Jim Hopper!

Like Sigg & Badbru, I take the view of the planet's TL being what it and its population can sustain, or produce/manage for themselves. Generally for Imperial worlds, I mark the available TL of the starport three levels higher than the worlds [usually a necessity for mid tech or lower ones], to minimum of TL-6 for space traffic control.

Only Red zoned X-class starport pre-jump drive tech worlds generally have some sort of 'Prime directive'.
 
Originally posted by Theo D Lite:
Ultimately all low tech worlds with higher tech neighbours will be devoid of population. If you examine the passenger availability rules in CT people will gravitate to the highest tech world.
The people who can afford passage ;) How's a minimum of Cr1000 and the gamble of dying in a low-berth for an immigration restriction :D

But yes there would be RealLife(tm) reasons not everybody leaves too.

Originally posted by Theo D Lite:
Ummmm. . . Think that went a bit off topic, sorry.
Interesting thoughts anyway, I'm sure you're forgiven :D
 
A tech level 0 world could have all sorts of high tech items on it, its just that none of its manufactured on the planet.

Here are two examples of TL 0 worlds:

Planet A: is an Earthlike world with a population digit of 6., A Starport X, Size 8, Atmosphere 6, Hydro 7, Government 7, Law level 0.
The inhabitants are stone age hunter gatherers, they have no contact with other worlds, and if they see something strange they become frightened.

Planet B: is a Mars size world with a thin atmosphere, and a population digit of 1, Starport E, Size 4, Atmosphere 5, Hydro 3, Government 1, Law Level 1. There are 50 scientists living on a base on this world, they do all sorts of scientific research using sophisticated high tech equipment imported from off-planet. There is no manufacturing base here so therefore the tech level is 0. Scientists are too busy with their research to manufacture anything.
 
I'm in good company then, being close to other luminarie's in their takes on it ;)

Mainworld TL is what one can easily find available for sale and repair in major centers of the mainworld. Depending on the Gov type this may be pretty universal or very uncertain beyond the Starport. Generally the ruling bodies have a TL bonus of 1 and outlying or rural areas a TL penalty of 1 in a cohesive Gov type and a higher difference both ways in less united Gov types.

For the PCs finding or fixing stuff above the listed TL is a gray market op with all it's "fun"
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PC imports of different TL goods gets a trade table mod for the difference and there is no restriction on importing high TL goods to a backwater world (and there are usually ready buyers). The only restrictions are those imposed by the Law code imtu.

An example or two:

A TL8 world can make Laser Carbines, and it's troops will probably even have TL9 Laser Rifles. If the Law code is 1 or 0 the PCs can even buy Laser Carbines or get their powerpack fixed in any number of shops. If they want their Laser Rifle fixed though they'll have to deal under the table, due to the TL. If they are importing TL12 Gauss Rifles they will have no trouble with the Law code and will get a +4 on the actual value table.

Now if the Law code were 5 they wouldn't be able to legally buy the Laser Carbines or Rifles that they may see troops guarding the Starport using. Nor would they be able to find a repair shop for their own and they'd have to leave them on their ship. If they try to sell the Gauss Rifles it will be against the law and land them in deep trouble. But the +4 for TL and +3 for Law differences may tempt them to try to make the attempt, but then your PCs aren't the criminal type are they
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Anyway, something like that is my take. But be flexible. If you want the PCs to sell those Gauss Rifles on some Mid tech High law backwater world, and get away with it*, then have them approached by someone who makes them a very tempting offer...

* until the "buyer" turns out to be an agent of the government and blackmails the PCs into helping them in whatever scheme or the Gov gets the "evidence"
 
Mssr. Jim Hopper:

Now as for Technological items availability..

As others have stated, the Higher tech items can be found on lower tech Imperial worlds. Outside the Imperium, say on non-aligned worlds, this may or may not be the case.

For worlds within the Imperium, or her client states, my take is you can find anything for the right price. Planetary tech level vs the item's TL is the formula/ rule of thumb I use.

Planet A is TL-3, you wish to purchase an item say TL-B. Price is book price x the difference, in this case, 8. This is a generic way of reflecting the cost of interstellar shipping & handling to the players.

And if it's a starship powerplant, jump drive, M-drive part, think also how long it will take to get there!
 
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