Tech level "descriptions"

[dalthor]

While fiddling around with a UWP descriptor, I was trying to describe tech levels for use in the breakout. I came up with these --

TL-0 = "may be primitive to stone age"
TL-1 = "can range from the bronze to middle ages"
TL-2 = "is akin to the age of sail, circa 1500 AD"
TL-3 = "is similar to the industrial revolution, ranging from 1700 AD to 1900 AD"
TL-4 = "is early mechanization, circa 1900 AD, including electricity and analog computers"
TL-5 = "is circa 1930 AD. Ground cars, machine guns, and polymers are common"
TL-6 = "is the early nuclear age, circa 1950 AD. Fission, early computers and electronics are used"
TL-7 = "is circa 1975 AD. Rockets, organ transplants and missiles are well-known"
TL-8 = "is circa 2000 AD. Photonics, commcasters and jammers are recent innovations"
TL-9 = "is circa 2020 AD. Early fusion, NAFAL, Gravatics, cryogenics, and Jump-1 are available"
TL-10 = "is circa 2100 AD. Practical fusion, lifters, and datacasters are becoming available"
TL-11 = "is circa Imperial Year 0. Fusion plus, semi-organic brains and Jump-2 are on the market"
TL-12 = "is circa Imperial Year 300. Anti-geriatrics, positronic brains and nuclear dampers are in use"
TL-13 = "is circa Imperial Year 550. Robots, Comm-plus, cloning, biologics and wafers are typical"
TL-14 = "is circa Imperial Year 800. Geneering, self-aware systems and psi-shields are created"
TL-15 = "is circa Imperial Year 1100. Anagathics and Jump-6 are available"
TL-16 = "is the Darrian maximum. Anti-matter, artifical persons, artifical intelligence and black globes exist"
TL-17 = "is the near future, fusion rifles and Hop-1 may be available"
TL-18 = "is the far future. Collectors, disruptors and holovisors are used"
TL-19 = "is the far far future. Elemental matter transport and disintegrator pistols may exist"
TL-20 = "approaches magic. Limited global matter transport and white globes may be known"
TL-21 To 32 = "is accelerating toward singularity. Relativity rifles and stasis may exist"
TL-33 = "has reached the technological singularity"

Anybody wanna look these over, and maybe give some suggestions? I may set up a table and randomize the "are available", "are used", "may exist" endings, to add a bit more variety.

Here is a sample of the UWP descriptor, in the latest incarnation. Width is a parameter to the function, so I can fit it to my screen or whatever.

The mainworld has a Routine starport that can repair major damage, provide unrefined
fuel, and has a downport. The mainworld is 4000 miles (6400 kilometers) in diameter.
The atmosphere is trace only, with minimal hydrosphere. There are hundreds of millions
of inhabitants, governed by a self-perpetuating oligarchy, ruled by a restricted
minority with little or no input from the masses. The law restricts laser and beam
weapons. Technology is circa 2020 AD. Early fusion, NAFAL, Gravatics, cryogenics, and
Jump-1 are available.

 

[Timerover51]

Your Tech Level 3 covers an awful lot of change, going from basically wind, water, and animal power to steam power, internal combustion engines, electricity, telegraph and telephone, and a lot of other changes.

 

[dalthor]

True.

The T5 BBB tables starting on page 504 has decimal increments, for example TL-1 = bronze age, TL-1.3 = iron age, and TL-1.6 = middle ages. It also includes TL 3 = 1700 AD, TL 3.3 = 1800 AD, and TL 3.6 = 1850 AD.

Unfortunately, the UWP doesn't (currently) allow a "#.#" format. It would be nice to have a UWP in the format A368555-1.3 but I don't forsee that happening any time soon.

I'm open to suggestions on a better way, but the above currently reflects the data formats in use.

 

[WistfulD]

TL 1 seems to cover about 3,000 years or more, yet the time between 1900 and 2100 require six bands? No wonder I preferred the GURPS 3e version.

 

[KDLadage]

Tech levels are, in most games a mess. Although I agree -- GURPS Traveller (3e) was better than most.

 

[atpollard]

TL 1 seems to cover about 3,000 years or more, yet the time between 1900 and 2100 require six bands? No wonder I preferred the GURPS 3e version.

How different is a German village in AD 1000 from a Celtic village on the same location from 2000 BC?

Stone spears and Leather Hauberks gave way to bronze swords and scale mail which gave way to steel axes and chainmail.
For the farmer, his hut and field looked more alike than different.

In 1900, I could stand on the dock and watch the clipper ships delivering Tea from China (admittedly, sailing ships were on their last dying gasps by 1900).
In 2100, I can fly my personal spaceship from the Starport on Earth to skim fuel from the atmosphere of Jupiter before heading out to prospect on some small moon.

While I might quibble over the details, I think that TL 4-9 probably is a period of much more rapid change than TL 1-3.

 

[KDLadage]

Agreed. But history has shown that the rate of technological advance is not something that is likely to slow down anytime soon. Consider (based on the descriptions above):

TL-7 = 1975
TL-8 = 2000 (+25 years)
TL-9 = 2020 (+20 years)
TL-10 = 2100 (+80 years)
TL-11 = Imperial Year 0 (+???? years)
TL-12 = Imperial Year 300 (+300 years)
TL-13 = Imperial Year 550 (+250 years)
TL-14 = Imperial Year 800 (+250 years)
TL-15 = Imperial Year 1100 (+300 years)
TL-16 = Imperial Year ???? (+???? years)
...
TL-33 = Technological Singularity

If... if we can handle (approx.) 300 years of Imperial History in each of 5+ Tech Levels, surely the division of 8, 9, 10 do not need to be a full order of magnitude smaller.

I am not suggesting that 1975 = 2000 = 2020.

Hell, many books I have read and films I have seen suggest that a Nimitz-class Aircraft carrier could have fought and won the WWII Pacific Theater by itself (e.g., The Final Countdown) indicating that the technological shift from 1940 to 1980 is perhaps the most drastic shift in military technology in history.

I am suggesting, however, that technological levels be used to indicate a broad swath of technological possibilities. And that the maker systems take such a broad swath into account. IN the end, TL-6 is only approximately equal to TL-6; it will depend entirely upon the culture, and how long some of those technologies have been in use...

 

[Timerover51]

Hell, many books I have read and films I have seen suggest that a Nimitz-class Aircraft carrier could have fought and won the WWII Pacific Theater by itself (e.g., The Final Countdown) indicating that the technological shift from 1940 to 1980 is perhaps the most drastic shift in military technology in history.

Aside from the obvious problems of running out of ordnance for her aircraft along with fuel (JP-5 was not around), she would have still be highly vulnerable to submarine attack, and have limited ability to counter a large number of surface ships attacking on the surface. Battleships would also have been a major problem if attacking at night, as weapons for attacking them are not a common ordnance item. No large anti-ship torpedoes are available from anywhere, and your typical air-dropped bombs can only damage a well-protected battleship. Zeros would have caused major problems for the F-14s in an engagement, and while the F-14 would not have been at much risk, unless it stalled out at low altitude, the Zeros would have been very poor targets as well.

A night attack by torpedo-carrying Bettys would have been a major problem for the carrier as well. So would be a night attack by a well-trained destroyer division using Long Lance torpedoes. See the Battle of Tassafaronga for an example.

 

[atpollard]

Agreed. But history has shown that the rate of technological advance is not something that is likely to slow down anytime soon.

No argument from me.
Clearly there are some metagame issues that require a large dose of hand-waving to reconcile the roughly thousand years per TL from 1-3 with the very roughly 40 years per TL from 4-9 with the millennial star empires of TL 10-15 (and who knows what beyond).

I think it ultimately becomes a matter of drinking the Kool-Aid that you prefer and living with it (and shielding your eyes and walking quickly past some parts of the Third Imperium/rules).

... Look, a squirrel!

 

[KDLadage]

{snip excellent argument against "The Final Countdown"}

I said I had read and seen such arguments... not trying to state they were entirely accurate. :rofl:

After all, (as my old Intel Officer told me): amateurs and armchair quarterbacks can speak of strategies and tactics all the want; admirals and generals will, more often than not, speak of logistics.

 

[Timerover51]

I said I had read and seen such arguments... not trying to state they were entirely accurate. :rofl:

After all, (as my old Intel Officer told me): amateurs and armchair quarterbacks can speak of strategies and tactics all the want; admirals and generals will, more often than not, speak of logistics.

See my signature, and also what I just posted in the Who Are We thread.

 

[Ulsyus]

I am suggesting, however, that technological levels be used to indicate a broad swath of technological possibilities. And that the maker systems take such a broad swath into account. IN the end, TL-6 is only approximately equal to TL-6; it will depend entirely upon the culture, and how long some of those technologies have been in use...

I reckon you've got an excellent point there - the TL bands offer a range of possible particular options. Let's not forget that for those of us who remember the DGP Worldbuilders Handbook there's the option to have varying TL's for different fields. This works best at the highter TL's, but doesn't mean that the principle shouldn't be applied within the broad bands at lower techs.

Maybe people could think of them more along the lines of "not possessing technology above This and not below That". Readers would then know that they're dealing with ambiguity and adjust their assessments for it.

PS: Lots of nice wrecks to dive on in the Solomons - went into my first Japanese sub while I was there :]

 

[Timerover51]

PS: Lots of nice wrecks to dive on in the Solomons - went into my first Japanese sub while I was there :]

KDLadage had been in the Solomons as well? I did not see that in his write up. Does it indicate which island he was on?

 

[McPerth]

Agreed. But history has shown that the rate of technological advance is not something that is likely to slow down anytime soon. Consider (based on the descriptions above):

TL-7 = 1975
TL-8 = 2000 (+25 years)
TL-9 = 2020 (+20 years)
TL-10 = 2100 (+80 years)
TL-11 = Imperial Year 0 (+???? years)
TL-12 = Imperial Year 300 (+300 years)
TL-13 = Imperial Year 550 (+250 years)
TL-14 = Imperial Year 800 (+250 years)
TL-15 = Imperial Year 1100 (+300 years)
TL-16 = Imperial Year ???? (+???? years)
...
TL-33 = Technological Singularity

(bold is mine)

You forget that, according MT:RC (and converting to Solomani counting from the table in MT:IE page 6), page 34, solomani reached J2, and so were at TL 11 at -2398 (2120 AD, solomani counting, so about 100 years after TL 9, according the timeline you give us), and TL 12 (J3) at -2210 (2299 AD, Solomani counting, so about 180 years after TL11). Then the Long Nigth avoided them to reach further.

Unfurtunately, as TL 10 is not attached to any jump increase, I cannot find the date Solomani reached it, but must (off course) be at some point between 2020 AD (TL9) and 2120 AD (TL 11).

While this does not void your point of TL increase time increments growing, instead of diminishing as have been last centuries, I guess that they are broader, and so breackthroughs that mark a TL change are more difficult to achieve as you go higher.

 

[Ulsyus]

KDLadage had been in the Solomons as well? I did not see that in his write up. Does it indicate which island he was on?

I couldn't anything about that, but I can say you don't need a wetsuit when diving there (except to protect from the coral)

While this does not void your point of TL increase time increments growing, instead of diminishing as have been last centuries, I guess that they are broader, and so breackthroughs that mark a TL change are more difficult to achieve as you go higher.

The law of diminishing returns and all that. But would it count for TL changes, which seems to almost work on an inverse function?

 

[KDLadage]

KDLadage had been in the Solomons as well? I did not see that in his write up. Does it indicate which island he was on?

I have not (that I recall) ever been in the Solomon Islands. Spent some time in Australia and Tasmania, but that is about as close to that area as I can claim.

 

[McPerth]

The law of diminishing returns and all that. But would it count for TL changes, which seems to almost work on an inverse function?

Anyone's guess...

But it could also happen like with antibiotics. When they were discovered in the 1940's, and new families and generations came, it seemed we had bacterial infections under control.

As bacteriae adapt and new resistences are appearing and no new families of antibiotics are fond or developed, we are aware if would be quite more difficult, and the fight against bacterial diseases has nearly reached an equilibrium, not advancing nor regressing too much for several years.

I don't know to what point (if at all) an that be extrapolated to other ressearch fields, though.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Some comments.

/snip/

Hell, many books I have read and films I have seen suggest that a Nimitz-class Aircraft carrier could have fought and won the WWII Pacific Theater by itself (e.g., The Final Countdown) indicating that the technological shift from 1940 to 1980 is perhaps the most drastic shift in military technology in history.

/more snippage/

Aside from the obvious problems of running out of ordnance for her aircraft along with fuel (JP-5 was not around), she would have still be highly vulnerable to submarine attack, and have limited ability to counter a large number of surface ships attacking on the surface. Battleships would also have been a major problem if attacking at night, as weapons for attacking them are not a common ordnance item. No large anti-ship torpedoes are available from anywhere, and your typical air-dropped bombs can only damage a well-protected battleship. Zeros would have caused major problems for the F-14s in an engagement, and while the F-14 would not have been at much risk, unless it stalled out at low altitude, the Zeros would have been very poor targets as well.

A night attack by torpedo-carrying Bettys would have been a major problem for the carrier as well. So would be a night attack by a well-trained destroyer division using Long Lance torpedoes. See the Battle of Tassafaronga for an example.

See that is why I go for a Mechanized Infantry Division given a choice, but if I got play modern units in WWII navy only I want a Nimitz class Battle Group or Task Force. Even today as spectacular as the firepower of one Nimitz class aircraft carrier is mightily impressive, it is an extremely limited as well. And back when The Final Countdown was made I do believe we carried "special weapons" or ye old tactical nuclear weapons and I think a lot of folks think a couple of A-6 Intruders will tac nuke Tokyo and boom, war over. I don't think they consider having to actually fight the war. Magical thinking that, I just use my magic future tech and automatically win.

The Nimitz alone is a spint and we hope shock and awe works on the Japanese Emipre, but I want me Jarheads to take islands and root out Nips with NVGs and them unsexy auxilleries. Need ammo and fuel the war, we could train the locals to use our nifty tech getting them to replace the guidance package of the more sophisticated missiles and bombs is a different matter (though I think we could get them up to speed quicker with the tech like computers on board, and the AIM-9 Sparrow can probably use local tech for the seeker head with reduced function).

Now on the original topic, if anything it seems given the technological advancement on Earth that the Vilani stagnation effect has actually lasted much, much longer than the Ziru Sirka that spawned. To me once you hit TL-9 the time between levels should decrease dramatically or in at least most cases, things like Grav and Jump maybe different but honestly I don't see that lasting more than about three TLs as the hard stuff gets done and after that it just becomes improvement on old stuff. So going from Jump-1 to Jump-3 may take a century or two, but after that Jump-4+ should be a breeze.

It is one of the neat parts of the new Fantastic Drives of T5, they don't just follow on discovering Jump, but are the new paradigm and discovering Hop even if your have Jump requires its own work to discover. Yes already having gravitics and jump drive make that quest a bit easier, but it is still a seperate disipline of Jumpspace Physics.

Digging the conversation, nifty thread running here. Thanks.

 

[atpollard]

Is it plausible that the period from WW1 through the Cold War is a technology anomaly ... a period of unnaturally accelerated advancement due to a perfect storm of forces that encouraged advances in technology at a pace far greater than the natural rate of adaption of societies in general.

Without the "high-population", "balkanized", "fight for survival", "us vs them" driving forces, the natural march from TL 4 to TL 5 to TL 6 to TL 7 to TL 8 would have been closer to 100 years per TL. Time for several generations to get used to and accept new ways of doing things and society to re-stabilize before facing another social upheaval.
The jump from electronics (TL 7) to Tactical lasers, Flying cars, and fusion power (TL 8) seems to be taking longer than the jump from the first biplane (TL 5) to the first jet aircraft (TL 6).

 

[KDLadage]

Is it plausible that the period from WW1 through the Cold War is a technology anomaly ... a period of unnaturally accelerated advancement due to a perfect storm of forces that encouraged advances in technology at a pace far greater than the natural rate of adaption of societies in general. {{snip}}

Oohh... me likey.