Talkin' Zhodani

[robject]

I have been tasked with building up a list of Zhodani morphemes currently known.

I've split most of the known words into syllables, and gathered together words with common syllables.

Lexicon (tab-separated list). Pardon the glitches.

Extracted morpheme list, version "A". Pardon the glitches.

Semi-grammatical notes, so far.

But: I found some Zhodani words which don't seem to fit -- at least, they can't be generated, or else I just don't know where best to place the syllable breaks. I am wondering what I should do with them. What do you think?

PROBLEM WORDS

???  Bazi            [Ba.zi ; Baz.i]
???  Brnava          [Br?n?a.va]
???  Derrida         [Der.ri.da ; Der.rid.a]
???  Dleqiatsz       [Dleq.iats?z]
???  Drbli Chtidr    [Dr?bl?i Chtidr]
???  Dzagtlas        [Dzag?.tlas]
???  Dzhagak         [D?zh?ag?.ak]
???  Iezranspa       [Iez.ran.spa?]
???  Itvikiastaf     [It.vik.ia.staf ; It.vi.kia.staf ; etc]
???  Jadlapriants    [Jadl.apr.iants ; Jadl.a.priants ; etc]
???  Jadsva          [Jad?s.va]
???  Jitiedl         [Ji?t?iedl]
???  Koch Efench     [Koch E.fench ; Koch Ef.ench]
???  Loyhva          [Lo.y??h.va]
???  Miechntid Ibl   [Miech.n?tid? Ibl]
???  Mielrva         [Miel.r?va]
???  Nieklsdia       [Niek?l?s?dia]
???  Ootrva          [O.ot?r.va]
???  Shpiaiebrae     [Sh?p?ia.iebr.ae]
???  Sidiadl         [Si.diadl ; Sid.iadl]
???  Tapljfidfries   [Tapl?j?.fid.fries]
???  Thequzastial    [Th?eq.uz.a.stial]
???  Thequzdij       [Th?eq.uz.dij]
???  Tlorafrvile     [Tlo.ra.fr?vil.e]
???  Viepchaklts     [Viep.chakl?ts]
???  Vlriinj         [Vl?r?i.inj]
???  Yevriblrz       [Yevr.ibl?r?z]
???  Zjipyli         [Z?jip.y?li]

 

[robject]

Word Thought
Zhdiblivlits "final conquest of the frontier"

Perhaps this has a noun and a verb form in it. If so, then the syllable boundaries could be:

Zhdi.blivl.its

/ZHDI/ frontier
/BLIVL/ to conquer
/-ITS/ final + perfect?

= The "frontier final-conquest"?

Question: is that even a useful construction to have? Maybe there's another way to get something approximating this definition that's more useful?

Another way would be to have the verb carry a more subtle meaning of conquer; i.e to tame aggressively, as with a wilderness. That might be

/ZHDIBL/ 'tame aggressively'
/-IV/ 'final'
/-ITS/ 'past perfect'

The final, aggressive taming of a wilderness.

 

[rancke]

But: I found some Zhodani words which don't seem to fit -- at least, they can't be generated, or else I just don't know where best to place the syllable breaks. I am wondering what I should do with them. What do you think?

Call them irregular forms. They used to fit, but usage has pared down some of the syllables.


Hans

 

[BeRKA]

Gaval

There are always exceptions.

I don't think "Gaval" (the subsector of the Zhodani Capital) fits either.

 

[BeRKA]

Zhodani Dictionary and Glossary

I see that you base your work on the Dictionary and Glossary that GypsyComet did:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050117032508/members.aol.com/gypsycomet/zhodict.html

 

[robject]

There are always exceptions.

I don't think "Gaval" (the subsector of the Zhodani Capital) fits either.

Nope, there's no "G". So another archaic form. Could've morphed into /K/, forcing K into /TL/ (and thence split to /KL/) or something...

Call them irregular forms. They used to fit, but usage has pared down some of the syllables.

Hans

I will probably do that with the /TH/ words, which must be leftovers from an earlier stage of the language.

Then, I could assume that some of the unworkable consonant clusters are worn-down forms of "normal" morphemes. That could become a rare grammatical rule.

On the other hand, they could represent grammatical structure, in which case they might not have to conform to the Zhodani word generation tables.

I do want to make sure I'm not treading on toes, or perhaps I have typos.

I see that you base your work on the Dictionary and Glossary that GypsyComet did:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050117032508/members.aol.com/gypsycomet/zhodict.html

That is exactly what I did. I couldn't find another resource. But if you have something better...?

 

[FreeTrav]

Try treating 'r' (e.g., in Brnava) as a vowel or semivowel, like some Eastern European languages do. Speak Zho with an American accent, and this word comes out roughly "Bur-na-va", with the 'u' weakened to below 'schwa' level.

 

[robject]

Try treating 'r' (e.g., in Brnava) as a vowel or semivowel, like some Eastern European languages do. Speak Zho with an American accent, and this word comes out roughly "Bur-na-va", with the 'u' weakened to below 'schwa' level.

And in fact I believe /R/ is a "vowel" as well as a consonant in Zhodani. The implied schwa is reasonable.

 

[aramis]

And in fact I believe /R/ is a "vowel" as well as a consonant in Zhodani. The implied schwa is reasonable.

If it follows common pan-slavic use, the /R/ as vowel is renderable (context dependent) as /rə/ or /ər/.

 

[robject]

If it follows common pan-slavic use, the /R/ as vowel is renderable (context dependent) as /rə/ or /ər/.

And Indian (as in India) use as well.

 

[robject]

Numerals

I'd like names for ordinal numbers in Zhodani. I don't need them all, and in fact it may be better to only have the first few. I am thinking of Zhdetl words for:

first
second
third
fourth
fifth

Notice how English doesn't really fall into a pattern until fourth... well there's no reason Zhdetl should either. Even Spanish isn't really regular until quarto (if you'll ignore the masculine -o endings):

primero
segundo
tercero
quarto
quinto
sexto and so on.

Japanese is more regular, BUT has other complications when counting and ordering things. In other words, it wasn't easy to begin with.

So, a batch of four seemingly unrelated words for the first four ordinals, then the fourth has a predictable suffix.

Swahili varies the forms of the first two numbers, then just uses the counting numbers for ordinal use.

kwanza (-moja)
pili (-mbili)


It is possible that Zhodani varies the counting number using predictable rules (that is, productions) for all its numbers. It depends on how constructed zhdetl is -- how much the Zhodani tinkered with it.

 

[robject]

Older Attempt At Zdetl

Kenji used to say that, to create an interesting conlang, mix up two unrelated known grammars.

I didn't do that with this iteration of Zhodani -- it looks like I made it nearly a cipher of Spanish (though perhaps not quite).

But, I had an earlier idea of making Zdetl a combination of Georgian and Mayan.

(1) VOS
(2) Verbs, Statives (halfway between verb and adjective), Adjectives, and Nouns.
(3) Verbs are marked for aspect, and the person and plurality of the subject and object. Aspects included perfect, progressive, habitual, completive/punctual, imperative, potential/future, optative (wish/hope). There's also a marking for possession.

No. 3 made for a complicated verb suffix.

(4) Nouns can describe other nouns, and uses the same object-subject structure as the sentences. Possessed nouns are marked for person and number of possessors. Nouns may also have a special form marking them as possessed. In English, we use "of" for possession, position, description, or reference. In Zdetl, they use a possessive marker instead. So "the face of the earth" in Zdetl reads "its face the earth".

(5) There are no cases or genders. Descriptive/genitive case uses the possessive construction. So "the leader of armies" is "the armies" + "leader".

(6) Voices: passive, antipassive, mediopassive, incorporational (incorporating a direct object into the verb), instrumental (promoting the instrument to object position) and referential (a kind of applicative promoting an indirect argument such as a benefactive or recipient to the object position).

(7) Numbers are used with classifiers for animacy, shapr, or partive.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

Notice how English doesn't really fall into a pattern until fourth... well there's no reason Zhdetl should either. Even Spanish isn't really regular until quarto

Well, there is a pattern to both of them -- it's the same one, in fact (which isn't too surprising, considering they're both Indo-European languages).

'First' and 'primero' are basically close cousins, after taking into account some fairly common sound changes ('p' to 'f', 'ri' to 'ir'). Etymologically, then, they are related to a lot of words which indicate a person or thing of high rank (primate, premier, prince, prior, even foreman). Thus, the thing at the front of the line is, at least to an Indo-European speaker, the most important thing.

'Second' and 'segundo' are more obviously related, and are descendants of words which are specifically intended to refer to followers or subordinates of the first thing. There is still a hint of this today, with the kind of old-fashioned use of 'second' to indicate a lesser companion or servant of a person more central to the action (as in a duel). 'Sequence' and 'sequel' are also part of this family tree.

So in these two Indo-European languages, at least, there is a social statement being made with the top two ordinals. After that, the languages do not seem to care, as the following words (beginning with 'third/three' & 'tercero/tres') are just riffs on numbers.

What I think this illustrates, then, is that rather from a purely conlang or linguistic interpretation of the language, it is at least as helpful to start with the social aspects of the culture that speaks it, and try to work out what you want from the language from there. What are the Zhodani -- whether they realize it or not -- telling the universe about themselves through that aspect of their language?

As an additional illustration (and as a side note), I noticed that Vilani has a statement to make about itself through its use of ordinals too. The Vilani equivalent of 'first' ('lanuur', to be first) is cognate with 'lanir' ('to be the original'), and the Vilani word for 'second' ('manum') is very close to -- and probably cognate with -- words for 'to be equal/to be fair' ('manim') and 'a packet or collection' ('manim'). So Vilani uses its top two ordinals to distinguish between an original object (the 'first thing') and its copies (the rest, or the collective others). And this does seem to me like a very Vilani thing to do.

 

[robject]

...it is at least as helpful to start with the social aspects of the culture that speaks it, and try to work out what you want from the language from there. What are the Zhodani -- whether they realize it or not -- telling the universe about themselves through that aspect of their language?

As an additional illustration (and as a side note) [...] Vilani uses its top two ordinals to distinguish between an original object (the 'first thing') and its copies (the rest, or the collective others). And this does seem to me like a very Vilani thing to do.

That's a good question for BeRKA, or Don "Grima" McKinney, or some other studied Zhodanista. Anyone?

The answer could potentially inform a lot of the grammar. For an absurd example, if the culture that produced Zdetl are all about "doing" rather than "being", then perhaps the Verb Comes First in typical sentences, and sentences where the verb trails might represent a contemptuous mood (or mode?), accusing the subject (or object) of hubris.

 

[Highorbit_drifter]

You can always just say certain words are from a dead language. Remember they went through a Dark Age after the plague of Qiknavrats. After such a huge loss of life and change in culture it's easy to see a new language develope but a reverance for the old culture remain.

 

[GypsyComet]

Reverence may not be the right word given that a significant part of Zhodani design theory appears to be "make it look like a Droyne".

 

[robject]

Reverence may not be the right word given that a significant part of Zhodani design theory appears to be "make it look like a Droyne".

I wonder if that's their school, or their obsession, mmm? If the latter, then there's an odd spin for their language. "Ancients' Best Friend", "Ancients' Second-Best Friend"...

 

[sayatmenace]

If you sick puppies are intent on holding on to the provisional, draft materials of Vilani c. 2000 as "official!!!!!!", then I'll just suggest that the Mad Scientist Technique of conlangs might benefit from _not_ including Georgian (or Kartvelian in general) as one of the extra-fictional parents of Zhodani: because a lot of it was already fed into Vilani, back in the days of the Traveller Language Mailing List.

If I were gonna mess around with Zhodani, I'd want to put an obligatory evidentiary-marking element in there somewhere. One, because it's not recognized as SAE; two, when you've got a society where a significant minority read minds, I think acknowledging the specificness and particularness of perception might not be unrewarded.

Wikipedia on "Evidentiality" is a decent place to start. Anyone who wants more books or articles about the subject, drop me a line. SIL (in the links on Wikipedia) has some handy pieces, too; perhaps more geared towards smart laymen. Not dissing y'all; just acknowledging that linguistics is the science most relentlessly neglected in North American high school curricula.