Taking a Starship

[Drakon]

but subsequently expecting to profit by such actions does cast aspersions on motive....All good points, but there should be a clear distinction between legally allowing beatdowns of corsairs and financially rewarding them...

I disagree.
First off the fact that defeating pirates *does* profit the fighters, especially if the fighters are able to capture their ships intact. It removes resources from a threatening party. It severly hampers the pirate's abilities, (especially if it results in the pirate's death). Successfully fighting piracy is in itself profitable.
Second, profits are encouragements. You want to encourage the fighting of piracy, you make it a profitable venture. If you limit those profits, you will have less fighting of piracy, with it becoming limited to self defensive actions. You want folks to hunt down piracy, (which I think is the only effective way of dealing with them) then you make it profitable.
Engaging in combat involves great risk. Unless the potential reward is commerserate, it won't get done as effectively, or in as timely a fashion.

TANSTAAFL.

I think that if a pirate ship is taken, there should be a substantial reward. And it can be paid out from the booty of the piracy, making its tax neutral. Granted, those robbed by the pirates should be compensated, but the destroyers of the pirates must be compensated as well. The compensation of the robbed parties I feel will have to be limited, as to prevent the pirate destroyers from turning pirate themselves. Or simply not report that some pirates have been wiped out.

The motivations for the actor's actions is irrelevant. The question for society is whether they want to discourage piracy and encourage the destruction of these parasitic elements that are detrimental to the well being of a colony. So they make a profit, big deal. The pirates get destroyed, and that is what society requires, if it itself is to survive itself.

Now having said that, there is a caution that it needs to be addressed. You don't want pirate hunters attacking innocent ships. Which is itself an act of piracy, although legally, a bit murkier. But whether pirate destroyers are doing it "out of the good of their heart" or "seeking adventure" or even "making a profit" is beside the point. They destroy pirates, which society either encourages, or allows the pirates to destroy them.

 

[Drakon]

Ah, but see, in a civilized society, the "right thing" is getting yourself out alive, not taking the law into your own hands.

Again, I have to disagree. The "right thing" is removing the continued threat of piracy. This is done by killing pirates and taking their ships and resources away from them. By making piracy too risky to comtemplate.

Whether that is done by a citizen defending himself or a "sanctioned qualified and/or licenced professional" or not is beside the point. The pirate is just as dead, regardless of who does the killing.

a ship captain with payments to make wouldn't even be able to afford the attorney's fees...

And this is what keeps captains with itchy trigger fingers from shooting first and asking questions later.

Besides there are security concerns involved. Have the pirates gotten to someone in charge of authorizing? What are the pirates able to know about those hunting them? Who watches the watchers?

it's not a pursuit for amateurs and dilettantes.

True. But I learned a long time ago that an expert is someone who is declared or recognized as an expert. No other qualifications are required. "Authorization" to fight crime just gives criminals an advantage.

 

[Darley51]

Insurance Companies and Piracy...

Having looked at the past few posts...

I think the insurance companies would probably have more influence on this than any of us might realize.

If your ship is mortgaged, you are required to carry insurance as part of the monthly payment... against loss of the bank's investment. There is also a carrier on your cargo fees against loss. Depending on how it is handled, this adds A LOT of complexity (depth/flavor) to the environment, but it also gives an avenue for explaining things.

The Insurance Company has a vested interest in identifying and eliminating pirates... either directly (patrol/hunt/kill) or indirectly (private investigators to identify, track, predict where they are, etc). When a PC party takes down a pirate, their ship logs will show what they were doing; third party corroboration is best, but Examination Under Oath (what are the penalties for Perjury in YTU?) can be used to verify what happened.

The Admiralty Court is there, the Insurance Company is there... how do they interact? I think they will work quite well together - they share the desire for the same outcome. Piracy affects the economy, the government does not necessarily have the resources for enforcement/erradication... the Insurance company does.... ergo... Bounty Hunters, Repo Men, Private Investigators galore.

If the PCs are not specifically designated as "Pirate Hunters" (Bounty Hunters, whatever..) the first instance of catching and eliminating a pirate results in them being required to get a PH License (RL: someone is acting in the capacity of a Private Investigator, gets caught... if the only offense was operating without a license, the penalty for the first offense is often "Get Your License" +/- a fine/wrist slap - the same idea could apply here).

Traveller makes widespread use of mercenaries... this isn't all that different. Even Trade Wars are fought similarly to what we are discussing here.

Short story made long:
The Insurance Industry goes a long way to solving societal problems, not for altruism, but for profit - and are WAY more effective at it than is the government/politics (The fire and building codes that we rely on for safety... were originally started by the INSURANCE industry to reduce claims, losses, fraud, etc... ) What do you think about that?!

In frontier areas, piracy is rampant... it sometimes also part of government corruption. Many of the sailors I know have flare guns that can be easily "converted" from their intended purpose to those of self defense (shot gun shells, small explosive rounds, etc)

I think the key, in the absence of a Letter of Marque, is to act in self defense: shoot back and don't miss. Your sensor logs, and that of the captured ship (plus the record of your distress call reporting the attack) provide several ways to demonstrate the validity of your position. Perhaps a military vessel (with better sensors) tracked and recorded the entire interchange and can corroborate your stance...

 

[CosmicGamer]

Just some of my thoughts here.

When attacked by a pirate run!!!

Unless your being extremely deceptive about your ships abilities or your extremely lucky, I don't think you are going to win a fight initiated by a pirate.

A Pirate captain is an experienced criminal. He is going to select targets that he knows are profitable and mostly unrisky (high chance of success low chance of getting caught).

Yes, there is the chance that they will take a higher risk target if the reward is high enough but I still doubt they would try it without at least some level of advantage unless they were desperate for some reason.

In todays terms:
Even the simplest of thieves knows to pass the house that is well lit and has dogs for the easier target and its usually the old lady that gets her purse taken and not the college jock getting his wallet stolen.

IMO, fighting a Pirate would be like going up against a gang or the mob. Certainly not something any group of citizens or merchants would be encouraged to do.

In an area of known piracy, merchant ships might try to find someone going in the same direction and travel in pairs or groups to reduce the likelihood of being attacked.

I think a Pirate trying to take your ship would be rare. Ships are probably not easy to sell. Who is going to be stupid enough to not do a thorough, extensive, and timely check before giving money over? Who is going to give more than a down payment before the pirate has to run off to evade the law? Certainly if your financing, the finance company will do exhaustive checks.

Possibly very expensive cargoes or passengers that could get a high ransom would make it worthwhile. If anything, I think that the ship might just be stripped down and sold for parts. As most interstellar adventurers know, owning, maintaining, and manning a ship is expensive.

If you have a ship and crew why not do some smuggling or steel goods from a warehouse instead of a ship in flight.

I don't recall what canon has to say about how common piracy is, but I think it should be rare.

 

[Darley51]

Here, Here! I agree (should have recalled my game experience from JUST LAST WEEK)

If you can, RUN... If you have to, fight.

If the dice gods (Lords of Kobol?) are nice to you, you might survive... you might even repel the boarders (who are trying to steal YOUR ship, because theirs is broken, they are desperate, hungry, stupid, whatever fits the encounter...)

Of course, they might have extra crew to staff yours back to the chop shop... assuming they don't just gut it outright and let the wreckage fall into the nearest gravity well...

As far as canon... the ship encounter tables answer that one... (There is a LOT of piracy in RL here and now... why would a frontier sector be any different?)

Or maybe they just don't like the way Thornwood painted his hull (tongue in cheek). Check out the Praxis series by Walter John Williams... kinda cool; impractical, IMO, but cool all the same!

endless possibilities, complexities... and flavor!

 

[boomslang]

They'd have to contend with the crowd of dirt-eater soldiers assigned to space-duty, of course, but wouldn't that be half the fun!

Indeed; there's plenty of adventure hook to be had from the situation if you just look for it...

 

[boomslang]

I think that if a pirate ship is taken, there should be a substantial reward. And it can be paid out from the booty of the piracy, making its tax neutral.

No, it can't. Not in a civilized society with just courts, at least.

Part of the responsibility of the legal system under whose jurisdiction the matter falls will be seeing that restitution is made to the prior victims of the pirates -- both for loss of selfsame property and other damages and liabilities as may have been incurred -- and those claimants will have priority over a bunch of gung-ho adventurer-heroes.

Again, I have to disagree. The "right thing" is removing the continued threat of piracy.

Which is why civilized societies form governments and empower those governments to serve and protect the public safety. Vigilanteism, as I so presciently mentioned previously, always leads to a "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality. This is why societies form governments in the first place -- to (theoretically) generate the authority and competence to act for the common good.

Vigilanteism also wrecks the insurance industry (see the comments by others on the interests and influence thereof), and ultimately endorses a general ban on privately-operated spacecraft, since when it's all said and done, the only sure way to prevent piracy is to keep spaceships out of private hands.

The "we must prevent wrongdoing at all costs" value system leads always to tyranny... no exceptions.

And this is what keeps captains with itchy trigger fingers from shooting first and asking questions later.

Oh, yeah. That will keep your typical reckless, irresponsible, menace-to-society Traveller PC in line, I'm so very sure...

:nonono:

 

[aramis]

Canonical mortgage rates are too low to support any form of insurance.

 

[Captain Midnight]

Ah, but see, in a civilized society, the "right thing" is getting yourself out alive, not taking the law into your own hands.

"Forget the rest, I'm taking care of Numero Uno." Your definition of "civilized" is perhaps not shared by everyone; others might easily imagine a system that encourages an active response rather than a passive one. While that response might not be the safest thing for the individual on the spot, it can be argued that one reduces the overall risk by eliminating a threat ASAP instead of just waiting for someone else to deal with it.

The bounty system you propose should be limited to sanctioned, qualified, and/or licensed professionals, not just any ship captain with an itchy trigger finger; anything else is a recipe for mayhem in the spacelanes as a "shoot first, verify identities later" mentality takes hold... even trained professionals can screw up -- remember the fate of the Mar de Damas.

That would be why I put in the part about "...IF it can be demonstrated to the Court's satisfaction that the offender was actually engaged in piracy". If you take it to an Admiralty Court looking for a bounty, and you don't have pretty solid proof, then you're in a world of trouble. If you can't cover your actions well enough to take it to Admiralty Court... then maybe you shouldn't be taking those kind of risks.

For that matter, when players in my game are tooling about in "civilized" space, the authorities notice if you're armed... and if you're buying missiles... and if you've got battle damage. They also note anything suspicious, and they're not shy about sharing information with anyone who might need to know. They keep track of people who travel across borders a lot, and won't hesitate to shut you down if there seems to be anything to their suspicions.

If your PCs are going to hunt pirates for money, they need proper training and backing; if only because of the legal overhead, it's not a pursuit for amateurs and dilettantes.

See, there's a big difference in "I'm bored, let's go hunt down some pirates" and "Last time we got boarded, it cost me 18 months of profit and my eldest daughter; I think next time we fight." You're postulating a slippery slope here, and I think you're assuming too much. There are areas between the endpoints you're alluding to, and it's certainly possible (not to mention canonical) for matters to reach some sort of stability without descending into complete anarchy.

Then again, I'm really not interested in getting into yet ANOTHER iteration of "OMG It's A Piracy In Traveller Discussion", so I think I'll bow out for a little while.

 

[boomslang]

"Forget the rest, I'm taking care of Numero Uno." Your definition of "civilized" is perhaps not shared by everyone; others might easily imagine a system that encourages an active response rather than a passive one.

To paraphrase Arthur Dent, "This must be some strange new use of the word 'civilized' with which I am unfamiliar."

Not taking it upon oneself to be the Instrument of Public Justice is civilized behavior. You're talking about vigilanteism, not civil conduct.

While that response might not be the safest thing for the individual on the spot, it can be argued that one reduces the overall risk by eliminating a threat ASAP instead of just waiting for someone else to deal with it.

But at what price to civil order? And acting upon what authority?

For that matter, when players in my game are tooling about in "civilized" space, the authorities notice if you're armed... and if you're buying missiles... and if you've got battle damage. They also note anything suspicious, and they're not shy about sharing information with anyone who might need to know.

Mounting armaments and purchasing ordinance are not "suspicious" activities (in the OTU, at least); indeed, the reason that local LL does not apply inside the XT line is the implicit acknowledgment that the Navy can't be everywhere at once, and spacers have an inalienable right to self-defense.

It comes down to two options for the victorious would-be pirate prey: report the incident to the authorities and waive claim any compensation beyond reasonable damages and any posted bounties in favor of gaining a fearsome reputation and popular acclaim, or else keep the incident private and quietly re-register the prize ship in some non-local freeport -- which is, in fact, piracy in itself.

You're postulating a slippery slope here, and I think you're assuming too much. There are areas between the endpoints you're alluding to, and it's certainly possible (not to mention canonical) for matters to reach some sort of stability without descending into complete anarchy.

Slippery slopes are inevitably slid down -- that's why they're considered to be so dangerous. And seriously, the history of the OTU (and good ol' pre-Jump Terra, for that matter) is a series of repeated descents into anarchy, sooner or later...

 

[Drakon]

No, it can't. Not in a civilized society with just courts, at least.

Part of the responsibility of the legal system under whose jurisdiction the matter falls will be seeing that restitution is made to the prior victims of the pirates -- both for loss of selfsame property and other damages and liabilities as may have been incurred -- and those claimants will have priority over a bunch of gung-ho adventurer-heroes.

The courts would not be dealing with this issue at all, if those gung ho adventures had not defeated the pirates. Not only preventing the capture of their own vessel, but removing a threat to the shipping lanes as well. They still need to eat, replenish, restock their armory, etc.

Or to put it more bluntly, if the risk weighs less than the potential reward, folks will find work elsewhere. Or go into piracy themselves. Remember, all this is academic, until the crew turns the ship in.

More fighters against piracy, means less piracy, more honest trade. Rewarding that effort, makes more fighters. Penalizing them, ignoring their risks means these same courts are going to be sitting on their backsides, while their space lanes are overrun. (As words gets out that the laws discourage pirate hunting, and hense easier pickings, and pirate hunters become pirates rather than lose their new ships) Unless they make heavy expeditures in police and technologies to face down that threat.

Does piracy create a threat to a world? If yes, how best to get rid of them? If you have the resources to build a fleet of SDBs, crew and man them, do so. If not, figure out a way to encourage the private sector to handling the problem.

Which is why civilized societies form governments and empower those governments to serve and protect the public safety. Vigilanteism, as I so presciently mentioned previously, always leads to a "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality. This is why societies form governments in the first place -- to (theoretically) generate the authority and competence to act for the common good.

Vigilanteism also wrecks the insurance industry (see the comments by others on the interests and influence thereof), and ultimately endorses a general ban on privately-operated spacecraft, since when it's all said and done, the only sure way to prevent piracy is to keep spaceships out of private hands.

Cops cannot be everywhere at all times, nor is it desirable. That quite often, especially in a setting like Traveller, leaves the individual to take care of things his own self.

It is that fact, and not "vigilantism", that would "ban private shipping". Vigilantism is the cure, not the problem.

Yes, successful governments reserve a monopoly on the use of force. But the better ones insist that an individual has the right to defend themselves. And to use force in that defense. You cannot have a right to life without a right to self defense. And the last thing you want to do is penalize folks for defending themselves, as well as society as a whole.

The "we must prevent wrongdoing at all costs" value system leads always to tyranny... no exceptions.

Not sure where you are coming from here. Piracy is a threat, you either deal with that threat, or you allow it to fester, keep a hold, and slowly bleed your colony dry.

You seem to think that governments are best equipted to deal with piracy. I would agree. But I also feel that local vigilanties can be effective, and more importantly, give them an incentive away from simply not reporting in, jumping the ship out of the area, finding a new sector. Or picking up where the pirates left off. And especially in the fringe areas, the frountier regions, where the tax base simply can't support that much in anti-piracy efforts.

And in many instances, you will have ships that have successfully fought off pirate attacks, and ended up with a prize. While they may not be as interested in a substantial reward, their damage from the attack needs to be compensated.

 

[Drakon]

But at what price to civil order? And acting upon what authority?

Where does authority come from? The local Duke, Baron, Sherriff, Imperial Command officer?

People have authority only because somebody that everyone decided to believe, said they do. Arch Bishop of Canturbury, God Himself, it all boils down to the same thing, they have authority only because we decide they have authority. Laws and courts are run by men, and those rules only have effect if we say they do.

The fact that pirates recognize this is part of the reason why they are pirates.

Hunting pirates, especially by ordinary (or so appearing) space folks, will improve civil order. It removes the pirates. It scares off other pirates. The authority issue is one that seems central to your disagreement. Which is the more important issue, who had the authority in removing the pirate threat? Or actually removing the pirate threat?

It comes down to two options for the victorious would-be pirate prey: report the incident to the authorities and waive claim any compensation beyond reasonable damages and any posted bounties in favor of gaining a fearsome reputation and popular acclaim, or else keep the incident private and quietly re-register the prize ship in some non-local freeport -- which is, in fact, piracy in itself.

Which is better for the government in a region to encourage? The claim is a legal issue, and yes, previous victims will have a claim. But the rescuers of the vessel have a claim to. And if you want to encourage them to file the claim, you have to offer an incentive. You penalize them, you make the risk not worth the reward, you get more pirates. Not less.

Slippery slopes are inevitably slid down -- that's why they're considered to be so dangerous. And seriously, the history of the OTU (and good ol' pre-Jump Terra, for that matter) is a series of repeated descents into anarchy, sooner or later...

That is because totalitarianism simply doesn't work. Cops cannot be everywhere at all the times. Politicians cannot see the future. Information overload. That makes systems with a lot of centralized authority ineffective. And because they end up taking more and more areas of control, as we ceede power to some "other", at some point, that other becomes ineffective at meeting needs. People rebel, they take the power back into their own hands, it gets bloody and anarchaic.

And then someone starts building up a local power base, folks decide to ceede more and more power and monopolies onto this guy, this band, this government, which that government cannot do to the level of satisfaction of its population. Its an endless cycle.

That is life.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Let me repeat a portion from my earlier statement:

Unless your being extremely deceptive about your ships abilities or your extremely lucky, I don't think you are going to win a fight initiated by a pirate.

A Pirate captain is an experienced criminal. He is going to select targets that he knows are profitable and mostly unrisky (high chance of success low chance of getting caught).

I don't recall seeing anyone disagreeing with what I said so I am confused as to why people are still talking about defending themselves, fighting back, being vigilantist and such....

To get back on to what the original post was about, IMO a ship should be treated the same way as any other property is handled.

If IYTU evidence in a crime is normally seized and held until the matter is resolved then ALL ships involved in an incident, because of their logs and damage, could be seized and held for an extended time while things are investigated.

IMO, after the incident is cleared up
A) Any ships with questionable ownership would continue to be held until this new "wrinkle" is resolved to the satisfaction of the authorities. If no owners are discovered, the property is probably auctioned with proceeds going to the authorities. If it is stolen property it is returned to the rightful owners.
B) Property is returned to the rightful owners if they are not guilty or not prosecuted, to their heirs if the owners are dead.
C) Property of guilty parties is sold with proceeds possibly going to lien holders, kept by the authorities, given to charity, and
D) Maybe, just maybe, you can get your expenses paid for transporting the vehicle (you were the "tow driver" that brought the ship to the impound yard) but would not get compensated for any damage to your ship during the combat and certainly would not get the ship or any profit from the sale of the ship.

Ok, now how do you possibly get money from this type of scenario.
1) Bounties on the pirate
2) Rewards from the owner for recovery of stolen property (if the pirate ship is stolen)
3) Rewards from a lien holder for recovery of stolen property (if the pirate ship is stolen)
4) Don't report any crime. Report abandoned property and request ownership/salvage. (only works if ship not reported stolen and no owner comes forward within a certain amount of time after due diligence has been done to locate one)
5) Other less than legal methods such as scrapping the ship and just taking it.
6) Suing the pirates for your damages, expenses, pain and suffering and your suit might possibly put a lien on their ship if they legally owned it. See C) above.

Mithras, from your post starting this thread, your boys may opt for the honest methods 1, 2, and 3. The GM can easily make it be the case for them - even all 3! Reward from a lien holder could easily be in the form of ship shares ("a great discount if you finance with us"). Maybe when the owner contacts your boys to give them a reward he tells them he is thinking of selling the ship "What, you two are interested in her? I'll give you a good deal."

Most of this is based on how i perceive things to work here and now. If someone does a drive by shooting and you shoot back and kill them you are not getting their car; unless you dump the body and just take it.

There is no real reason Traveller has to be the same but I do think that a ship should still fall under the same laws as any other property, however those laws are written IYTU.

 

[Mithras]

Cosmic Gamer. I like your analysis.

There is a bit of a complication: the 'pirates' are after some long lost loot on the lifeboat that the PCs are trying to salvage. The pirates shoot up their ship, threaten to kill them all unless they hand over all contents of the lifeboat.

I hope the PCs will 'deal with them', then fly their Scout/Seeker back to Frenzie. After that... I'm still reading the thread!

 

[samuelvss]

Pirate Criminology 101

Just some of my thoughts here.

When attacked by a pirate run!!!

Unless your being extremely deceptive about your ships abilities or your extremely lucky, I don't think you are going to win a fight initiated by a pirate.

A Pirate captain is an experienced criminal. He is going to select targets that he knows are profitable and mostly unrisky (high chance of success low chance of getting caught).

Having worked for several hundred criminals (over a thousand, but I never culled from this figure the number of repeat clients or those buying criminal defense in bulk), and having studied crime at an advanced level, I doubt "experienced criminal" is a weighty qualification. In the words of Bill Geimer, "Criminals, as a class, are not cum laude." The skipper of a Type-S pirate is not an evil genius, but a desperate bottom feeder running on borrowed time. Like modern pirates, they will take the easiest target, as they perceive it, but that may still be risky even as calculated by a desperate, stupid mind.

In todays terms:
Even the simplest of thieves knows to pass the house that is well lit and has dogs for the easier target and its usually the old lady that gets her purse taken and not the college jock getting his wallet stolen.

The target is typically young and poor. But even jocks are more likely to be victimized than little old ladies, because they spend more time in places where one can be a target (dorms and bars). (Analogous to the gas giants in systems with Class C & D starports). Little old ladies just get more press...

I will agree that deterrence works. A Free Trader that announces itself as armed will probably not be attacked, even by a Type T; The damage the Trader could do before being taken out would only be it worth the prize if the ship itself was the prize.

Spotting whether a ship, not actively firing, is armed is not automatic. I have always opined that it is very tricky until coming into a range where missing becomes impossible. If canon states, I have missed it. The pirate thus has a problem: if the ship "heaves to for boarding," is it still dangerous? The porch lights and dogs are thus not visible; this provides not just specific deterrence (he's got a gun), but general deterrence (a lot of them may be carrying concealed). Pop-up turrets just make the dynamic a little better for the "Q ship."

But we return to the "experienced criminal." Criminals are typically criminals because they do not have other options, or they are otherwise too screwed up. Other than privateers, those hired or authorized by one government to prey on shipping of another, pirates in the CT universe will likely be the same. Desperation will often enter the equation, and as in real life, where most crimes attempted are not completed, being a hard target is your best chance. If he is an evil genius, then you won't be able to outrun him anyway, because he'll have your vector and dry fuel tanks figured before attacking, now won't he? Dumping cargo and running might help.

I think a Pirate trying to take your ship would be rare.
. . . . .If anything, I think that the ship might just be stripped down and sold for parts. As most interstellar adventurers know, owning, maintaining, and manning a ship is expensive.

The pirate's most critical asset is a starship and its parts. A pirate, bottom feeder or commodore, will hope to snag a repairable ship every once in a while to replace one battle damaged, or to "part-out." for its components.

A successful, well-armed pirate may add to his flotilla, cache of parts, or black market revenue. Ships will pass in black market transactions, but more rarely than parts.

Herein lies the rub. A pirate running a Type-T will get little use out of the critical parts of a Type-A; those parts are only to be had in another Type-T, which will always be armed and unlikely to surrender. As such, at some point the Type-T will become unrepairable for one living in the black economy. Running a ship is expensive, yes, but replacing major components is even more expensive, and caching a prize is free. A cached Type A then becomes a valuable fall-back. Another Type A (prize) can provide similar if not matching parts to be cobbled together for the unthreatening-looking Type-A corsair. Risky business, but desperation plays a part here.

I don't recall what canon has to say about how common piracy is, but I think it should be rare.

The CT ship encounter tables give decent chance running into pirates in the 100-ton to 200-ton range. These are presumably spoils of earlier fights that are now pressed into service as replacements.

The bottom line, if you venture into the C's and D's of the Marches, go well-armed, put up a fight, and trust to your luck.

 

[Drakon]

IMO, after the incident is cleared up
A) Any ships with questionable ownership would continue to be held until this new "wrinkle" is resolved to the satisfaction of the authorities. If no owners are discovered, the property is probably auctioned with proceeds going to the authorities. If it is stolen property it is returned to the rightful owners.
B) Property is returned to the rightful owners if they are not guilty or not prosecuted, to their heirs if the owners are dead.
C) Property of guilty parties is sold with proceeds possibly going to lien holders, kept by the authorities, given to charity, and
D) Maybe, just maybe, you can get your expenses paid for transporting the vehicle (you were the "tow driver" that brought the ship to the impound yard) but would not get compensated for any damage to your ship during the combat and certainly would not get the ship or any profit from the sale of the ship.[.quote] This is a good analysis. But I think my point is more toward this second part.

Ok, now how do you possibly get money from this type of scenario.
1) Bounties on the pirate
2) Rewards from the owner for recovery of stolen property (if the pirate ship is stolen)
3) Rewards from a lien holder for recovery of stolen property (if the pirate ship is stolen)
4) Don't report any crime. Report abandoned property and request ownership/salvage. (only works if ship not reported stolen and no owner comes forward within a certain amount of time after due diligence has been done to locate one)
5) Other less than legal methods such as scrapping the ship and just taking it.
6) Suing the pirates for your damages, expenses, pain and suffering and your suit might possibly put a lien on their ship if they legally owned it. See C) above.

What I think is that you want to avoid 4, 5 and 6. They way to do this is encourage pirate takers. This has the benefit of increases resources and efforts to elimate the threat. And properly done, you can do it in a way that does not increase taxes.

Pirates will generally gravitate toward low law levels, light populations and areas outside of the Imperial Navy's playground. Places that for one reason or another do not have the capabilites of fielding large self defense forces. Those that do, will end up driving pirates either to extinction, or to better pickings.

1, 2, and 3 are great. But even those require resources the local government may not have. Making use of the "spoils of war" can cut costs to that government. Empowering a populace, as either a posse, or bounty hunter, or militia, can help.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Having worked for several hundred criminals (over a thousand

Sounds like your dealing with the ones that got caught. It would not be fair to judge all criminals based on that group. Can you tell me statistically what % of crimes go unsolved?

I doubt "experienced criminal" is a weighty qualification. The skipper of a Type-S pirate is not an evil genius, but a desperate bottom feeder running on borrowed time.

I don't see how someone in possession of a ship could be called desperate. Wouldn't they have a decent amount of money just by selling off the parts?

Like modern pirates, they will take the easiest target, as they perceive it, but that may still be risky even as calculated by a desperate, stupid mind.

But we return to the "experienced criminal." Criminals are typically criminals because they do not have other options, or they are otherwise too screwed up. Other than privateers, those hired or authorized by one government to prey on shipping of another, pirates in the CT universe will likely be the same.

You are calling these pirates desperate and stupid? What type of criminals are you dealing with? Do you consider a computer hacker desperate and stupid, an inside trader, an accountant skimming the books? Possibly there is a certain level of criminals your exposed to that may be more common and it is biasing your views? Pirates, in my opinion are not the typical criminal. To operate a ship you need people with computer skills, electronics, gunnery, navigation, piloting, engineering, and more. Pirates have skills, they wouldn't be desperate.

I'm not saying they are evil geniuses but Pirates are not in the same class as the criminal that mugs you as your leaving the bar. They probably were raised as criminals and are well trained. Their entire family is criminals. Something similiar to the mob. The pirate captain probably worked his way up serving in several positions over a good amount of time. Pirates are very similiar to adventurers who just don't respect the law (players often have their characters act just like pirates). They do it for the thrills and possible riches not out of desperation. In MGT a pirate has the exact same survival roll as a Free Trader! The pirate skill table is Pilot, Astrogation, Gunner, Engineer, Vacc Suit, and Melee(blade).

The pirate's most critical asset is a starship and its parts. A pirate, bottom feeder or commodore, will hope to snag a repairable ship every once in a while to replace one battle damaged, or to "part-out." for its components.

On this we agree. And because "the pirate's most critical asset is a starship" I believe if they are approaching a random target and it looks like they can put up a fight, the pirate would let it "escape". Why risk the ship or take a bunch of damage that could be costly when you don't even know if the ship has anything of value on board other than its parts. The next ship to come along with less defenses will do just fine. I still think that many pirates will pick their targets based on defenses, cargoes, maybe even tech levels of equipment and determine these things then "hunt" their target not just randomly attack. One simple way is to just have a spy or payed informant at the starport that passes the info along including telling the pirate ship where their target is going and when they are leaving how many people are on the crew, what armor and weapons they appear to have, and anything else of importance.

Everything stated here is pretty much just opinion and not based on any facts other than the bit about MGT pirates.

 

[CosmicGamer]

1) Bounties on the pirate
2) Rewards from the owner for recovery of stolen property (if the pirate ship is stolen)
3) Rewards from a lien holder for recovery of stolen property (if the pirate ship is stolen)

1, 2, and 3 are great. But even those require resources the local government may not have. Making use of the "spoils of war" can cut costs to that government. Empowering a populace, as either a posse, or bounty hunter, or militia, can help.

Just want to correct what either I am reading wrong or was a slip up on your part. Only #1 would require money from the government.

I see bounties being used when there are strategic (government vessels are busy rescuing people from the planet Mississippi where there was a large natural disaster) or economic reasons (the cost of fuel has gone way up so getting the ships to come from other locations would be costly) for not using government forces.

How about:

1b)A "tip line" reward for information leading to the pirates capture. This would be funded by the sale of seized property. Hopefully the ship is still worth something after the Navy fills it full of holes.

 

[boomslang]

The authority issue is one that seems central to your disagreement. Which is the more important issue, who had the authority in removing the pirate threat? Or actually removing the pirate threat?

From the perspective of the government, the top priority is always preserving the government's authority. From the perspective of the people living in the frontier area, the top priority is living in relative (and preferably pirate-free) safety.

But, of the two competing interests, which side tends to have the bigger administrative apparatus and military force to pursue its goals and ensure that they are met?

Local people will appreciate brave individuals who rid them of the pirate scourge the interstellar government couldn't be bothered to deal with; interstellar governments will consider such high-initiative actors to be threats to its authority to maintain legal, civil order and therefore akin to corsairs in their own right. Local Heroes may find themselves declared Public Enemies if they are too cavalier in disregarding the "Big Picture".

But that's what we call a "Campaign Hook", of course.

My original advice stands: if they want the ship, the less-problematic course of action is to keep the whole thing quiet and extra-legal; if they want the acclaim, they need to keep modest expectations about any immediately-tangible rewards.

 

[abomination]

The pirate's most critical asset is a starship and its parts. A pirate, bottom feeder or commodore, will hope to snag a repairable ship every once in a while to replace one battle damaged, or to "part-out." for its components.

A successful, well-armed pirate may add to his flotilla, cache of parts, or black market revenue. Ships will pass in black market transactions, but more rarely than parts.

This is a good point, spares & ships stores were just about the number one target for C17th & C18th pirates. Generally the only thing that that they wanted more was crew. Especially specialists such as carpenters & surgeons. Ships engineers might find themselves forced to sign on to avoid the killing / torture of their ship mates.This made it quite tricky for courts dealing with captured pirates to sort out the guilty from their victims. As naturally everyone immediatly claimed to have been "pressed" into joining.

"Treasure" was usually spent rapidly (within a couple of extremely riotous days)as soon as the ship docked at a safe port.

The authorites dealt with piracy in a couple of ways aside from the usual legal process.

1. Occaisional amnesties were arranged. Pirate crews would be given a clean sheet if they surrendered before a certain date, Many took advantage of this, plenty then stayed out of piracy. Of course if you took an amnesty, went back to piracy & were subsequently caught, you got strung up.

2. If the piracy became too much of a problem to trade, the navy would send a task force to deal with it. A carrier fleet sweeping through a system would make very short work of stamping out piracy if it could be spared from it's military duties & there was the political will to do so.

Even the most successful of them usually didn't last more than a couple of years before being apprehended. I really don't see how piracy could be a long term career within the Imperium where there are subsector navies. Although there might be room for it between the borders of the various interstellar states.