Taking a Starship

[Mithras]

My players (two sons) will be trying to salvage an old lifeboat, when they get bushwhacked by a a couple of 'pirates' in a Scout ship. After they've dealt with the two 'pirates' they will probably want to take their ship.

Now I'm OK with this I think, but obviously its illegal. I'm keen for them to have a ship to use in the game, but up to now they've been careful to not break any laws - they want to be good guys, not bad.

Is there a legal way I can give them ship entitlement? Or a big fat share or something... the two 'pirates' have tried to kill them, fired on their ship, and will probably end up dead, leaving their SCout drifting in an asteroid field.

Even if they take the ship, I'll have to make changing the transponder difficult and expensive and illegal. Anybody know what's on the transponder?

Any help appreciated!!

 

[mike wightman]

Is it going to be a scout/courier or a seeker being used for piracy?

If the latter the paper trail behind it is so murky they could probably get away with claiming it as salvage - plus the lifeboat could fit in an ore bay so they could keep that too.

As for the transponder, pirates are known to have access to variable transponders - always useful for honest players rather than those lawless pirate types.

 

[deadlock]

You also have to wonder who else (planet, megacorporations, nobles, other pirates, etc.) are hunting for this ship?

 

[CosmicGamer]

You also have to wonder who else (planet, megacorporations, nobles, other pirates, etc.) are hunting for this ship?

And what kind of reward they might give (ship shares?) for returning it....

 

[Supplement Four]

Mithras,

You might get some benefit from reading this thread: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=14716&highlight=doors


Check out my response to the original poster in Post #2. I address a lot of variables you might not be considering when stealing a starship.

Hope that helps.

 

[Mithras]

Thanks S4, I will check it out when I get back in.

Until then, I think I might use Mike's idea and have them use a Seeker. The two man 'pirate' crew, can already have illegally hotwired their registry and transponder to be fairly easily recoded. The PCs could register the ship in their own name if they desire, but with the knowledge that it is against the law.

 

[Darley51]

Privateering...

Or...

Having fought off a pirate attack, obtained the vessel... they could present it (and themselves) to the nearest naval vessel/facility to claim the reward for eliminating pirates

(this is based on an article I found on on BerKa's site) - they could have the option of cash or the ship; which of course could have been severely damaged in the raid, not to mention it's previous condition... <grin>

Something to consider...

Here's the link:

http://zho.berka.com/starships/

(it's near the bottom under "rules")

 

[samuelvss]

Imperial Prize Courts

IMTU, there must be, as well as serious disincentives to stealing a ship, incentives for foiling piracy. If, in the sparsely patrolled backwaters, there was no reason to fight back or even press an advantage against pirates, then many pirates would live to fight another day. A pirate vessel taken is a prize, that must be submitted to the local imperial admiralty court. Unless the original owners are in "active pursuit" of the vessel, and have have expended as much or more effort than those who have retaken the prize from the pirate crew, then the prize-takers have first claim to the vessel.

This, of course, takes time. Messages have to be sent out, generally sector-wide, for previous owners, their heirs or their assigns. The assignee may be a bounty-hunter who bought the surviving owner's interest for 5% of the ship's "retail" value, depending on the tactical situation. [e.g.: Far trader is taken from a backwater system, from which 5 systems are within J2, four of which are not in imperial space. The crew is put down in a belter's camp, not to be rescued for 3 weeks. The message, sent to imperial authorities, takes 5 weeks even to reach the nearest naval/scout base. The chance of recovery, if the pirates run fast and far, is minimal.]

A typical outcome would reimburse the current claim holder up to 10%, offset against prize-takers expenses (i.e.: battle damage in a chance encounter, battle damage plus other expenses in a purposeful pursuit).

Other than the anti-piracy legal policy here, there are others. Finding the actual owners may be impractical or impossible. The previous owners may have been spaced decades earlier. The ship may in fact be like the 200 year old axe: only had 2 new heads and 12 new handles.

So doing the "right thing" might take 6-8 months and about 10 kCr in legal fees to get clear title. (2D6 months from reporting to the prize hearing at a Class A, 2D6 +1 at a class B). The immediate past owners still have to be proven to be pirates; downloads from ships' communications will generally be required, or other evidence. throw 8+ to win clear title, + Admin skill, + Legal of any help. +1 if prior Naval or Scout. +4 if there are ship's computer records (from any ship) that show that this was clearly pirates vs. god guys). Any other claims could be financed once clear title is obtained, and will generally be 3D6 % of the ship's retail value.

All this leads to incentives for players to take on pirates, though getting the prize would be a long process. Once the date for the hearing has been set,
which will take 1D6 weeks from the actual reporting at a naval base, scout base, A or B starport, then the players can post a .1% bond to make reasobale use of the ship. This will typically require severe travel and reporting restrictions, sticking to X-boat routes with the subsector, and being present two weeks before the hearing, for instance.

 

[jawillroy]

doing the "right thing" might take 6-8 months and about 10 kCr in legal fees to get clear title. (2D6 months from reporting to the prize hearing at a Class A, 2D6 +1 at a class B). The immediate past owners still have to be proven to be pirates; downloads from ships' communications will generally be required, or other evidence. throw 8+ to win clear title, + Admin skill, + Legal of any help. +1 if prior Naval or Scout. +4 if there are ship's computer records (from any ship) that show that this was clearly pirates vs. god guys). Any other claims could be financed once clear title is obtained, and will generally be 3D6 % of the ship's retail value.

I like this; I'd make it a little harder, to make sure they had to really cross their t's and dot their i's. Not that there would be an assumption of their being pirates themselves, necessarily, unless their reaction rolls were really bad, but the authorities would be bound to make certain everything were proper. "Sorry to put y'all through this, boys, but if'n we don't make certain of the title on that vessel's clear *now,* it'll haunt everyone. Now, you realize you won't be able to get clear paper to leave the planet until the inquiry's done, right?"

It'd be a great opportunity for you to have some on-world adventuring while all the red tape got sorted out.

Also, there's the possibility that the pirates had associates onworld (the local fence? A noble gone bad with worse gambling debts? A local rebellion?) who might not be above taking revenge... Everybody Has Friends.

 

[boomslang]

It'd be a great opportunity for you to have some on-world adventuring while all the red tape got sorted out.

There is also the possibility that once the vessel's identity as a former corsair is established, aggrieved parties will come forth and try to slap a lien against the vessel's transfer of ownership demanding compensation for damages they incurred from its pirate operators.

The key point here being that the vessel is not salvage, it's a prize. Unless the "good guys' had been issued a Letter of Marque previous to the battle, they're going to have to get in line to claim a piece of the pie. There's unlikely to be a "reward" for battling pirates; the Navy will frown upon vigilanteism.

Most likely outcome: if the original owners cannot be found, the vessel will be sold at auction to cover the expenses her corsairing inflicted.

The best bet for the PCs who want to retain ownership is to simply quietly abscond with the vessel, and purchase a new registration for her at some low-LL freeport... as well as new identities for themselves, if they've already filed a report with the authorities...

 

[samuelvss]

Vigilanteism: Not in Hoboken, Maybe in the Marches...

There's unlikely to be a "reward" for battling pirates; the Navy will frown upon vigilanteism....

I would say the Navy would, just like they often frown on the Army, as turf battles go, but this is not a society where the Navy has control. If it were, there would be not provision for a free trader arming itself. This is, in places, the wild west, with no duty to retreat. Indeed, there are niches where self-help by private parties fit well into a legal system, as ugly as some results may be. Constitutionally sanctioned private bounty hunters are one such in modern U.S. society. In an interstellar empire whose lifeblood was trade, and 9-1-1 did not exist, such a reward is entirely sensical.

As to a letter of marque, such would be necessary to attack any enemy ship, specifically for commerce raiding, but these can be of more limited scope. Indeed, such a Special (i.e. limited) Letter of Marque would likely exist for actions against piracy. IMTU IMHO etc, etc.

 

[boomslang]

This is, in places, the wild west, with no duty to retreat.

Quite; however most legal systems will draw a distinction between self-defense and profiting-by-privateering. The former is a reasonable right in a huge, rarely-patrolled frontier area; the latter is rather close to piracy in itself. Certainly, no court system in an interstellar society would find fault with unescorted civilians making some corsair suck vacuum, but subsequently expecting to profit by such actions does cast aspersions on motive.

Indeed, there are niches where self-help by private parties fit well into a legal system, as ugly as some results may be.

All good points, but there should be a clear distinction between legally allowing beatdowns of corsairs and financially rewarding them...

 

[Gadrin]

The best bet for the PCs who want to retain ownership is to simply quietly abscond with the vessel, and purchase a new registration for her at some low-LL freeport... as well as new identities for themselves, if they've already filed a report with the authorities...

Yes or if they come clean the GM could reward them by having whichever authorities they do approach, "hold" the ship during an investigation period who can award the ship to them if "things check out" (yes GM plays Santa), in the meantime the PCs can jump around (the authorities have their Imperial ID data) in preparation for acquiring their new ship, putting together a workable enterprise.


>

 

[Mithras]

Excellent discussions here on a subject that I sort of knew was a tricky one!

I do agree that in a universe of armed vessels, that law between the stars must rest on the shoulders of those who travel there. Which makes killing pirates legally OK (if you have proof via black-box) and could easily be sanctioned by worlds who cannot fund SBDs themselves (letters of Marque, or bounty hunters etc).

On balance, I suppose handing over a pirate ship to the pirate killers is a bit too extreme, and simply fosters a culture of piracy. More likely is a % ofthe ship's auction.

I think I may bide my time, and 'give' my players their ship later on, as part of a job (such as the Amber Zone 'Food Runner').

 

[Darley51]

Or...

Hortalez et cie (or other suitable insurance company or consortium of such) could provide a cash reward, usable towards the purchase of a ship, TAS membership, etc (think along the lines of the Arson Alarm Foundation... with some tweaks...)

Or... for that matter, the insurance company claims the prize but offers the ship, with considerations, for some errand or other... discrete delivery of a package, bait for a bigger operation they are doing, etc...

 

[Captain Midnight]

All good points, but there should be a clear distinction between legally allowing beatdowns of corsairs and financially rewarding them...

There needs to be some compensation for taking the risk, however, and some fashion to make whole any damages suffered in performing a service for the common good. Nobody wants to see a system where there's enough financial incentive to make it worthwhile to frame someone for piracy, but you also don't want there to be no benefit from doing the right thing, either.

I'd go with something like the "Admiralty Court" approach mentioned earlier, with the additional wrinkles of (1) a bounty provided to whoever takes the prize IF it can be demonstrated to the Court's satisfaction that the offender was actually engaged in piracy, and (2) they get first claim for "recompense for damages" to replenish used ordnance and repair any battle damage, and (3) they get right of first refusal to buy the prize outright at a price assessed by the Navy's Bureau of Ships.

The bounty can be as large as the GM feels is warranted, ranging anywhere from a few thousand credits for small fry up to a few million for organized pirates who have been preying upon an area for some time. If you're feeling generous, you might allow the Admiralty Court to advance them the cost of their repairs against their anticipated bounty; otherwise, some kind-hearted lender will be happy to loan them the money for a (cough) nominal surcharge against their anticipated claim. It's also possible that someone might be willing to loan them enough money to exercise their "right of first refusal" and repair and refit the prize... but that's a whole new story that you're getting into.

It's also quite possible that various nobles could exercise their influence with either the Bureau of Ships, or with the moneylenders who are dealing with the PCs, and THAT has excellent adventure potential as well.

 

[boomslang]

There needs to be some compensation for taking the risk, however, and some fashion to make whole any damages suffered in performing a service for the common good. Nobody wants to see a system where there's enough financial incentive to make it worthwhile to frame someone for piracy, but you also don't want there to be no benefit from doing the right thing, either.

Ah, but see, in a civilized society, the "right thing" is getting yourself out alive, not taking the law into your own hands.

The bounty system you propose should be limited to sanctioned, qualified, and/or licensed professionals, not just any ship captain with an itchy trigger finger; anything else is a recipe for mayhem in the spacelanes as a "shoot first, verify identities later" mentality takes hold... even trained professionals can screw up -- remember the fate of the Mar de Damas. Fortunately, the IN can shrug off the liability in such a case; even a bonded bounty hunter would be hard-pressed to do likewise... a ship captain with payments to make wouldn't even be able to afford the attorney's fees...

If your PCs are going to hunt pirates for money, they need proper training and backing; if only because of the legal overhead, it's not a pursuit for amateurs and dilettantes.

 

[samuelvss]

Civilized, eh?

Ah, but see, in a civilized society, the "right thing" is getting yourself out alive, not taking the law into your own hands.
....If your PCs are going to hunt pirates for money, they need proper training and backing; if only because of the legal overhead, it's not a pursuit for amateurs and dilettantes.

Probably the only effective way of hunting pirates is in fact to be their prey. Indeed, the dynamic here is the captain wondering whether, if the load's insured anyway, do "I dump it or take advantage of the fact that my return fire has disabled one of his turrets, giving me a 2:1 advantage in firepower?" If I'm the subsector duke, I'm going to want that free trader blasting. A trader will likely never fire the first shot; if there's no possible payoff for it other than being sued by the heirs of the trader who got jumped 30 years ago, then that trader's never going to fire the last shot. He's going to feed the pirates in a bid to escape.

If you arm people to enforce the law, there will always be mistakes. Cops, "Licensed Professionals" [having been one in a couple of professions by now] and dilettantes make mistakes. The question is, how "civilized" is your society?

Having resided in Texas these past 3 years, I'm not convinced that a society where law enforcement tells me that animal control will not come out there, but I can shoot the pit bull myself if it's in my yard, is all THAT civilized. [Thankfully, neither am I] If I go get a captain's license, however, and have a freighter built they STILL wouldn't ask me about hardpoints. This in the world of near instant communication, on Terra in 2008, where we still can't stop piracy, but it's not a threat.

If you take the first shot at a starship, and you're not the Navy, then there is a price on your ship. That's a law I can live with. Based on my doctoral studies in criminal justice, ten years of practice in criminal law, and professional schooling through command and general staff college, that spells deterrence. Yes, it also spells liability. If you are in a place that needs deterrence less than it needs to avoid the inevitable mistakes that deterrence brings, like Topeka, then you have the luxury discouraging self-help deterrence. If your political future depends on lonely traders being unmolested in very lonely places, then it may not be altogether nutty to give them incentive to stick it out in a fight ...IMTU.

 

[boomslang]

If your political future depends on lonely traders being unmolested in very lonely places, then it may not be altogether nutty to give them incentive to stick it out in a fight ...IMTU.

It would probably be better to have an informal system in place than a publicly-posted bounty/reward.

Your backwater planetary judicial process might be tilted in favor of those who get rid of "public nuisances" without fostering a cottage industry in amateur gunslinging.

For example, upon the occasion of a band of intrepid traders capturing a corsair, the local government could seize possession of the vessel (to form the core of its brand-new planetary navy), paying the traders a lucrative "finder's fee" (maybe eight figures, but still well below the market value of the hull) and providing them with honorary citizenship at a minimum Soc-B (on-world, at least), a change of port of registry if desired, free repairs, and a permanent waiver on berthing and fueling fees.

That ought to keep 'em coming back... especially once the word gets out that your lil' planet warmly welcomes traders who "don't mind a reasonable amount of trouble"...

 

[jawillroy]

the local government could seize possession of the vessel (to form the core of its brand-new planetary navy),

If a local government were to do that - and it didn't have a crew for the ship waiting (and if it doesn't have a navy, why would it) they might well offer the capturing crew a job skippering the vessel. They'd have to contend with the crowd of dirt-eater soldiers assigned to space-duty, of course, but wouldn't that be half the fun!