T5SS: Travellermap.com Update

[Carlobrand]

Please no that the bolded part was not mine, just quoted. I do however hold that TPTB are to free with unnecessary retcon.

Hmmm.

Marc's like any other game master: he's got a vision of his game world that evolves as he learns more. He's just been far more successful at sharing his vision than most of us could ever hope for. I admit to being left scratching my head on occasion but, since I'm not one of those honorables who's had any part in his success (aside from buying the product like everyone else), and having argued that X needs a fixin', I don't know that I can turn around and tell the guy who owns the sandbox that he shouldn't have messed with Y - at least, not without a better argument than a desire to keep things as they were.

 

[DonM]

This is like the several people who have sent me distribution tables detailed from running through various editions of WorldGen. I usually send them to Supplement 10 and ask them to look at its distributions.

I know that one because I did it and was completely stumped. If you've read through the various writeups about Imperial economics, you'll find that sector completely overwhelms all of the old sector data...

Then Marc told me John Harshman hand created it, not by rolling, but by deciding what worlds he wanted where. Oh, the others gave opinions and some changes were made. But the distribution is just nutty.

Banged my head against that for months. Thought I was, well: o:

So the Ancients play hard and fast with the setting. You'd have thought someone was designing a dungeon for us to adventure in...

 

[savage]

Hmmm.

Marc's like any other game master: ... I don't know that I can turn around and tell the guy who owns the sandbox that he shouldn't have messed with Y - at least, not without a better argument than a desire to keep things as they were.

That is a very good argument actually. The amount of effort that goes into game development compounded by validation of changes to canon. :CoW:

On the other hand.

Clearly, the developers did not sit and playout the battles of the Rebellion (At least, i don't recall discussions of it). So, do arbitrary changes matter? If one has a non-Virus, non-Rebellion universe will ? vs X dramatically change the setting?


I can argue that Depot/CORR was TLD in 1105 and accelerated to TL15 by 1115 before the Rebellion laughing off game developers changing the sandbox. Afterall, 10 years to build up a starport.

 

[robject]

[...] since I'm not one of those honorables who's had any part in his success (aside from buying the product like everyone else), and having argued that X needs a fixin', I don't know that I can turn around and tell the guy who owns the sandbox that he shouldn't have messed with Y - at least, not without a better argument than a desire to keep things as they were.

I think that's the key. We can't, don't, won't check our brains at the door. When Marc does something we think doesn't make sense, or forgets something that we have reason to argue for, then we have to let him know. Then we see if he changes his mind.

Don's been more successful in changing Marc's mind than anyone else I know.

 

[savage]

I think that's the key. We can't, don't, won't check our brains at the door. When Marc does something we think doesn't make sense, or forgets something that we have reason to argue for, then we have to let him know. Then we see if he changes his mind.

Don's been more successful in changing Marc's mind than anyone else I know.

Oddball: To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of weird sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers.
Kelly: Nobody's asking you to be a hero.
Oddball: No? Then YOU sit up in that turret baby.
Kelly: No, because you're gonna be up there, baby, and I'll be right outside showing you which way to go.
Oddball: Yeah?
Kelly: Yeah.
Oddball: Crazy... I mean like, so many positive waves... maybe we can't lose, you're on!

 

[dalthor]

<grin>

I've been following this thread with glee, cause I get to see a lot of

- confused looks
- hair-tearing
- blank stares
- mouth foaming
- bug-eyes

and a lot of other things. I think its kinda...cute. As Oddball says - "Always with the negative vibes!" (I love that movie; I can just see the Imperial Marine version, grav tanks and all!)

</grin>

I can fully understand the want and need to clean up data, and correct some long-standing issues. It should help fix some of those "say what?!?" and "hand-wavium" things that get constantly bandied about. It'll never be perfect, but it is a good start.

I can also understand the need for many of us to take issue with this. It is messing with the creations of many a fine referee.

IMTU it wasn't so much the data, it was the JOURNEY the gamers embarked on. Consequently, as I experience it, the changes are for the better. I'm still fixing (and improving) my Varan campaign data; in the long run it will be better for my players.

Fun intended, I can categorically state the following as food for thought:

It iz yor TU - have it yer way, or you can go to Windee's and grab a beacon-ator, or you can flame-broil the whole shebang.

For myself, I see final proof of the theory of parallel universes.

"Engineering, full power to forward shields"
"Engineering, Aye"

 

[pendragonman]

Oddball: To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of weird sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers.
Kelly: Nobody's asking you to be a hero.
Oddball: No? Then YOU sit up in that turret baby.
Kelly: No, because you're gonna be up there, baby, and I'll be right outside showing you which way to go.
Oddball: Yeah?
Kelly: Yeah.
Oddball: Crazy... I mean like, so many positive waves... maybe we can't lose, you're on!

WOOF WOOF WOOF!

That is my other dog impression.

 

[DonM]

savage and pendragonman:

I have had Traveller runs that were sadly like both of those posts. :nonono:

 

[savage]

Sure. DonM. So have we.

Arf Arf Arf That's my Dog impression.

WOOF WOOF WOOF!

That is my other dog impression.

Crapgame: who is that guy? -Him? Name's Kelly. Used to be a lieutenant. Until somebody gave the order to attack the wrong Depot. Now its TLD. Somebody had to get blamed and he got picked.

Crapgame: But for 1.6 million creds in Iridium, we can become heroes for 3 days.

Big Joe: ...give the Man-Portable Fusion Gun to the hustler. He wants to be a hero.

***
Kelly: Sergeant, this bank's not gonna fall into the hands of the Imperium Marines.

Zho tank commander: You... the Imperium Marines!

Oddball: No, baby, we ain't.

 

[Vladika]

...Until somebody gave the order to attack the wrong Depot. Now its TLD. Somebody had to get blamed and he got picked...

It's always an inside job...

 

[pendragonman]

Moriarty: "It's a piece of junk! The fuel system leaks all over the place. It's a piece of junk!"

Oddball: "It's a mother beautiful tank! Always with the negative waves Moriarty, ALWAYS with the negative waves!"

And some of the best games I've had have gone this way...

 

[savage]

I know it's been mentioned, but...
DGP said Dlan was TLG and 24 systems in Massila sector. Perhaps others.
I think 24 was a bit high, 2-4 early TLG would have sufficed.

Now the reset data, we throw out the canon, being more concerned with random stats than written history. I bring this up because of the imbalance created in the Rebellion. I don't think, Margaret, without better tech, would've lasted till 1121 vs the Solomani or Lucan. Delphi is weaker than the Domain of Deneb which has a couple TLG worlds.

 

[DonM]

The plethora of DGP TL 16 worlds were deliberately rolled back. The number kept are less than the fingers on one hand. We're throwing out the random TL jumps and sticking to the written canon.

 

[savage]

The plethora of DGP TL 16 worlds were deliberately rolled back. The number kept are less than the fingers on one hand. We're throwing out the random TL jumps and sticking to the written canon.

I appreciate the concept. I'm sharing another concern. It seems like Massila should have a few more high tech worlds with the amount of trade/traffic it receives. That was probably the intent. Certainly Rimward Deneb should not be hot property. Delphi is a poor step child. Hardly capable of holding off the Solomani Rim IMO. Margaret did control a little of Massila, that is a positive.

 

[EDG]

This is like the several people who have sent me distribution tables detailed from running through various editions of WorldGen. I usually send them to Supplement 10 and ask them to look at its distributions.

I know that one because I did it and was completely stumped. If you've read through the various writeups about Imperial economics, you'll find that sector completely overwhelms all of the old sector data...

Then Marc told me John Harshman hand created it, not by rolling, but by deciding what worlds he wanted where. Oh, the others gave opinions and some changes were made. But the distribution is just nutty.

Banged my head against that for months. Thought I was, well: o:

So the Ancients play hard and fast with the setting. You'd have thought someone was designing a dungeon for us to adventure in...

We've discussed this already, you and I, but saying "the published sectors don't fit the distribution of worlds made using Traveller worldgen, they just made them up" basically renders the entire worldgen in Traveller worthless.

If someone makes up their own sectors using published worldgen rules, I think they may have a reasonably expectation for them to look like what's published, or for things like trade to work as described in the book (which may not be the case if habitable worlds actually end up separated by J3 or more).

Fact is, you wouldn't arbitrarily make up vehicles for an official product and not bother with having them be consistent with vehicle design rules (heck, people tend to get quite grumpy about published vehicles or spaceships that don't match the rules that built them), and you probably wouldn't encourage people to make characters arbitrarily rather than use the chargen either (cue cries of min-maxing, cheating, and powergaming). But planets and systems? "Pffft, make it up, nobody cares about those, right?" That's a double standard, right there.

I posted a quadrant made using the Book 6 worldgen a few years ago on SFRPG, which may be an interesting read for some folks: http://www.sfrpg-discussion.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1051

But basically, it seems to me like you need to either change the worldgen to more closely match the published sectors, or change the published sectors to more closely match the worldgen (of course, you'd need a worldgen that actually produces consistent, sensible results for that too). But having published data being different to the generation systems provided in the rulebook seems like a horrible idea to me.

 

[savage]

But basically, it seems to me like you need to either change the worldgen to more closely match the published sectors, or change the published sectors to more closely match the worldgen (of course, you'd need a worldgen that actually produces consistent, sensible results for that too). But having published data being different to the generation systems provided in the rulebook seems like a horrible idea to me.

I think both would be necessary to avoid throwing out canon.
Changing worldgen data makes sense in some scenarios. However, it should be low impact changes if possible.

Following random with another random act is not necessarily successful.

 

[DonM]

EDG: Interesting concept, "Solomani Rim was handcrafted, so the OTU is worthless." That's like saying Greyhawk is useless because the Caves of Chaos didn't match the Random Dungeon method. It's not a double standard; it's about building a universe to play in versus running around in a generic universe where the data doesn't matter. You can have a campaign setting with a soul and personality, or a campaign setting that just exists with no purpose. IF that's what you want, by all means follow the rules blindly, never adjusting a die. I've NEVER run a role-playing game that way, and I probably never will. Discovering that the Ancients created the OTU instead of having some computer generate every bit of its odd but sterile data really causes you a problem?

And yes, we're changing some things that have always looked out of place, but carefully, without altering the OTU's quirky personality. It is the OTU, after all...

Savage: You might want to look at Massilia again. We did make changes...

 

[EDG]

EDG: Interesting concept, "Solomani Rim was handcrafted, so the OTU is worthless." That's like saying Greyhawk is useless because the Caves of Chaos didn't match the Random Dungeon method.

Nope. Nothing like that at all.

Published Vehicles have to be made using the vehicle design system.
Published Characters have to be made using the character generation system
Published "Things" have to be made using the relevant Maker system (and I note you're going to a lot of effort to ensure that guns etc conform to the Makers)
Planets and systems though? Those are an exception, apparently. Why? Why does worldgen have to get the short end of the stick when it comes to consistency, when everything else is expected to stick to the rules?

It's not a double standard; it's about building a universe to play in versus running around in a generic universe where the data doesn't matter. You can have a campaign setting with a soul and personality, or a campaign setting that just exists with no purpose.

That's utter rubbish, and you know it is. A randomly generated sector isn't a "setting with no purpose". Are you really telling us that everyone's campaigns made using the random worldgen are "soulless"? Really? I've seen and played in quite a few randomly generated setting that were actually pretty good, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that. And how about all those characters made by the random chargen that everyone's so fond of? Do they have "no soul" too? Are they just "bland data"?

IF that's what you want, by all means follow the rules blindly, never adjusting a die.

If your generation system is good enough to create a consistent, sensible universe, you shouldn't NEED to adjust a die. And I know such worldgen systems are possible, because I've created them myself. If T5's system generation was worth its salt then it would be able to generate a playable universe - the fact that you're ignoring it seems to imply that it's not capable of doing that. Which further implies that it either needs to be fixed so that it does, or just removed as the waste of space that it is.

Discovering that the Ancients created the OTU instead of having some computer generate every bit of its odd but sterile data really causes you a problem?

It does. The computer generated sectors were bugged as all hell because they were programmed wrong and the system used to generate them didn't produce sensible results even if it was programmed correctly. The people produced sectors are basically saying "the game's system generation can't produce a setting that I want, so I'm going to have to make it up". Which means the generation system isn't worth the paper it was written on.

I'm curious - how many of the ships and guns and vehicles have you fudged the stats for in T5 without any regard for conforming to the system that you're supposed to use to generate them? None? Some? All of them?

And also, how many fixes that you're applying to the worlds in this T5SS are actually in the T5 worldgen anyway?

 

[DonM]

Just like the rest of Traveller, I look at the rules, and if what's there isn't legal, I recommend a fix.

T5, Mongoose, T20, TNE, GT, TH, MT, CT...

And with the T5SS, if it isn't legal, we suggest a fix. But we are NOT checking distributions; we're simply saying, if it is randomly possible, then it's legal, and we generally keep it.

It's like changing the world size. There were two suggestions for a common legacy data problem, which is the wrong atmosphere or water for a world size.
Fix #1: re-roll the whole world.
Fix #2: change the size to make it legal; doesn't even change the trade codes.

So we went with Fix #2. And I'll get nasty notes about random distribution. I do reply to those notes, even the ones with swear words and comments about my ancestry. I was adopted at birth, so some of those notions some people come up with about my parents might be true. I try not to disappoint the senders.

And I do have to adjust dice: I'm trying to apply legacy data to published adventures, and sometimes, they just don't match up. I hate tossing adventures, so we usually just patch the data to match the adventure, and make sure the fix is legal (the ATM matches the SIZ, matches they HYD, etc).

That applies to the T5 Ex/Cx as well: I've got notes on mapping the "social outlook" from Grand Census and WBH, the "world characteristics" of Pocket Empires, and the "social parameters" of GT:First In to T5's Ex/Cx (side question: why didn't the authors of First In use the Rhylanor details from Grand Census?). If a world description gives us notes on Homogeneity, I'm going to use those notes instead of rolling Flux, while still making sure the result equals Pop±5 (Flux).

However, go back to 1977, and look at the worldgen rules. Then look at the '81, '82 LBB and '84 Starter texts. Not until Book 6 do they try to get scientific -- before then, it really was all about making worlds to play on and about.

So no, we're not mapping OTU fixes to any distribution. If that ruins the whole universe for you, create your own to your specifications. The Traveller Setting Police won't storm your house and seize your dice.

 

[EDG]

That applies to the T5 Ex/Cx as well: I've got notes on mapping the "social outlook" from Grand Census and WBH, the "world characteristics" of Pocket Empires, and the "social parameters" of GT:First In to T5's Ex/Cx (side question: why didn't the authors of First In use the Rhylanor details from Grand Census?). If a world description gives us notes on Homogeneity, I'm going to use those notes instead of rolling Flux, while still making sure the result equals Pop±5 (Flux).

Oh yes, those Ex/Cx scores that don't mean a damn thing in practical terms - another waste of space. (Apparently there's something in T4, but how that's supposed to be applied consistently in the T5SS and and why it's not described in T5 either is beyond me).

So no, we're not mapping OTU fixes to any distribution. If that ruins the whole universe for you, create your own to your specifications. The Traveller Setting Police won't storm your house and seize your dice.

You're avoiding my question, Don. How many vehicles/guns/ships are in T5 that have been arbitrarily designed rather than designed using their Maker systems?

And it's not really about mapping it to a distribution, it's about wasting space on a worldgen system that is just ignored when designing published sectors, and that's just another wasted opportunity to fix things in T5. Again, how many of the fixes that you're applying are actually in T5's worldgen system? If you're adjusting world size to allow breathable atmospheres, does the T5 worldgen do the same to avoid those tiny cannonball worlds with breathable atmospheres? Or does it still generate habitable moon-sized planets with breathable atmospheres? Heck, are trade and worldgen systems in T5 even consistent with eachother?