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T5SS: Travellermap.com Update

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We agree that there is a loss, even if we disagree on how great it is. IMO the difference between the frontier starport and no starport at all will be covered by the red zone classification in most cases. But great or small, it's unnecessary, there's no corresponding gain that couldn't be equally well served by the use of a question mark.


Hans

Not sure I agree with you and Aramis on this one. It seems the value could go either way.
  • A loss in the tracking of port X may be more freedom for the ref and surprises for the players.
  • Marking unknown worlds as red zones seems a bit premature. IMO red zone must be hostile or protected.
 
We agree that there is a loss, even if we disagree on how great it is. IMO the difference between the frontier starport and no starport at all will be covered by the red zone classification in most cases. But great or small, it's unnecessary, there's no corresponding gain that couldn't be equally well served by the use of a question mark.

I see a significant loss in that change -

Under the old system - port code X means there's no particular place on world anyone is expecting a ship to land. Port code E (Marked spot of bedrock and/or beacon in a field or lake) is a place people expect to see ships land; if you go there, people will tend to notice.

Under the new system, X could be anything from E to A, but there's no telling whether an E is "No port" or "no facilities at the nominal port".

  • Marking unknown worlds as red zones seems a bit premature. IMO red zone must be hostile or protected.

A "Red Zone" is a TAS-advisory, and (usually) represents a world that has been interdicted or quarantined (but may also simply represent a world with extreme hazards of some sort, without an "official" interdiction or quarantine from an official government organization). Such a world could have no starport or provision for landings at all ("X"), a traditional "spot of bedrock with a beacon" ("E"), or a small facility for official traffic ("D"), depending on the nature of the world and the reason for the Red-Zone. Some unusual cases may even have a "C", "B", or "A", on a case-by-case basis.

OTOH, a lack of provision for landings and Interdiction/Quarantine do not necessarily go hand-in-hand. A world that is charted but uninhabited wouldn't necessarily have a beacon & bedrock (i.e. Starport "X", especially if it is outside Imperial borders). And an uncharted/uninhabited world, or an uncharted Low-tech populated world outside Imperial borders would almost certainly have an "X" starport classification without official interdiction or TAS-code.

Perhaps using the "spaceport" codes ("F"/"G"/"H"/"Y") for Interdicted/Quarantined worlds with ports might be useful as well (though a departure from prior usage in canon), since any starports for Red-Zoned worlds are not really there to facilitate interstellar travel in general, and may be more like a spaceport in character anyway.
 
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A "Red Zone" is a TAS-advisory, and (usually) represents a world that has been interdicted or quarantined (but may also simply represent a world with extreme hazards of some sort, without an "official" interdiction or quarantine from an official government organization). Such a world could have no starport or provision for landings at all ("X"), a traditional "spot of bedrock with a beacon" ("E"), or a small facility for official traffic ("D"), depending on the nature of the world and the reason for the Red-Zone. Some unusual cases may even have a "C", "B", or "A", on a case-by-case basis.
...

Perhaps using the "spaceport" codes ("F"/"G"/"H"/"Y") for Interdicted/Quarantined worlds with ports might be useful as well (though a departure from prior usage in canon), since any starports for Red-Zoned worlds are not really there to facilitate interstellar travel in general, and may be more like a spaceport in character anyway.

Yes. Red Zone has a very specific meaning. A traveler going to a new world is inadequate to validate the existence of a star/space port. Unless the traveler represents/reports to the Imperium Scout Service with detailed survey data.

Using a spaceport subcode makes a lot of sense. Perhaps that is where the X really belongs.
 
A "Red Zone" is a TAS-advisory, and (usually) represents a world that has been interdicted or quarantined (but may also simply represent a world with extreme hazards of some sort, without an "official" interdiction or quarantine from an official government organization). Such a world could have no starport or provision for landings at all ("X"), a traditional "spot of bedrock with a beacon" ("E"), or a small facility for official traffic ("D"), depending on the nature of the world and the reason for the Red-Zone. Some unusual cases may even have a "C", "B", or "A", on a case-by-case basis.

OTOH, a lack of provision for landings and Interdiction/Quarantine do not necessarily go hand-in-hand. A world that is charted but uninhabited wouldn't necessarily have a beacon & bedrock (i.e. Starport "X", especially if it is outside Imperial borders). And an uncharted/uninhabited world, or an uncharted Low-tech populated world outside Imperial borders would almost certainly have an "X" starport classification without official interdiction or TAS-code.

Perhaps using the "spaceport" codes ("F"/"G"/"H"/"Y") for Interdicted/Quarantined worlds with ports might be useful as well (though a departure from prior usage in canon), since any starports for Red-Zoned worlds are not really there to facilitate interstellar travel in general, and may be more like a spaceport in character anyway.

I can easily see why a world MAY have, say a Class A port, and be quarantined. I doubt a Class A port would be destroyed should Interdiction/Quarantine occur, for whatever reason, after the port was built.

Additionally, the High Port may very well be in full service even though the planetary surface is off limits.
 
I can easily see why a world MAY have, say a Class A port, and be quarantined. I doubt a Class A port would be destroyed should Interdiction/Quarantine occur, for whatever reason, after the port was built.

Additionally, the High Port may very well be in full service even though the planetary surface is off limits.


That is a good point.

It is also important to keep in mind just what is being interdicted/quarantined? The entire system or just the mainworld, and if just the mainworld, is there a highport as an orbital "way-station" so to speak, while otherwise forbidding access to the surface (e.g. a situation similar to Victoria/Lanth).

I would definitely prefer to keep the Starport/Spaceport classification independent of the Travel Zone. It gives more detailed information about the world that way.
 
Using a spaceport subcode makes a lot of sense. Perhaps that is where the X really belongs.
Actually, the spaceport subcodes are something I'd prefer to get rid of entirely. At the lower end of the spectrum in particular, they are quite redundant.
 
Actually, the spaceport subcodes are something I'd prefer to get rid of entirely. At the lower end of the spectrum in particular, they are quite redundant.

X and Y are definitely redundant (I never understood the need for a separate Type-Y). Type-H could perhaps be subsumed under Type-E as well.
(In which case, H and Y would be available for redefinition as Red-Zone starport codes as we have been talking about. :) )

Type-F & Type-G definitely have a meaningful distinction, however.
 
IMTU I made a distinction between TAS Red Zone worlds and Imperially Interdicted worlds. For a Red Zone, all the world data was available (though perhaps not up to date). For the Interdicted systems all data is redacted save the hex number, the system name, and the stellar data. I always found it kind of strange that everyone has access to the data on these forbidden areas - so I treated them more like Area 51. Everyone knows it's there, nobody official says anything, and you get in huge amounts of trouble if you get caught trespassing.

But even the presence of a Gas Giant was redacted, simply to cut down on traffic through the area (even if with the proper instrumentation/equipment and research you could probably figure it out).

Just seemed to make sense to me.

D.
 
All interdicted worlds are red zoned, but some red zoned worlds are red zoned for other reasons than interdictions, such as quarentines and ubiquitous dangers.


Hans
 
What gets me is when an interdicted system is on a main, it's not like those jump 1 ships can just go around. As it stands there is no distinction between a travel advisory and in interdiction nor is there indication if it only applies to the main world or the entire system. This is from the viewpoint of just looking at the maps without canon sources to go by. YMMV IYTU
 
All interdicted worlds are red zoned, but some red zoned worlds are red zoned for other reasons than interdictions, such as quarentines and ubiquitous dangers.


Hans

Yeah, and I always took the TAS Red Zone to be a travel advisory rather than having the force of law.

D.
 
Note that page 432 has for X starports. I really need to get permission from Marc to drop out updated errata even if Combat isn't ready. On my call list.

The X starport is gone. It's for unexplored areas, for referees to use for unknowns. All over T5, X is "unknown". Well, except on (looks at errata) 305, 306, 432, and 433.

I'm sorry some folks don't like it's absence, but I actually prefer it gone. First, the real starport value is there when there was one, and all those worlds are still red-zones, so the Fo code and the R zone codes still mark them. I still think "Fo" and Red zone are redundant.
 
Hmmm ...

Being old and slower of wit than I once was, I find it takes me a bit longer to figure things out than it used to. I think I begin to understand the X bit.

Under CT original rules as written, the E port was a "frontier installation" and the X-port was "no starport", and an X-port occurred on a random roll of 12 in the starport generation table. Pretty much same as what MCutter reports is documented for that page 432 of T5. (It should be noted that CT original rules didn't seem to be bothered with the idea of an A port at an uninhabited world). CT travel zones are up to the game master, and there's no required link between travel zones and starport type - not even X-ports.

Under CT rules as implemented in Supplement 3 (The Spinward Marches), ALMOST ALL red zones were given x-ports. The three exceptions are Andory and Candory (two worlds with space-faring Droyne populations under Imperial protection) and Djinni (an utterly uninhabited but habitable world with an E port, and I have no idea why it's red-zoned but habitable worlds with red zones and no people scare the willies out of me). There's one example of a X-port without a red-zone - Zeta 2 - and it shows up on me ol' paper sector map with, wait for it, a RED ZONE; in other words, it's an error.

Supplement 3 presents us with 11 examples of utterly uninhabited systems served by a "frontier port," and two uninhabited systems that have the distinction of being served by poor quality ports that offer unrefined fuel - in other words, D ports.

Meanwhile, Supplement 10 (The Solomani Rim), moved partly away from that convention. Again, every red-zoned world is X-ported - "thou shalt not land here" - but there are no less than seven examples of X-ports with no red zone, in every case an uninhabited world. All the uninhabited worlds in the Solomanii Rim are X-ports.

So, we have a situation where the game rules did not require a red-zone world to be an X-port, but it nonetheless became the original game milieu's convention. At the same time, we had two different treatment of uninhabited worlds: in one supplement they all had frontier (and better) port installations, in the other, they all had no port facilities. In that respect, the Traveller Map de-X'ing isn't doing anything Supplement 3 wasn't already doing except for its new treatment of red-zoned worlds.

Now, I like the red-zone with the starport theme. Helps with cases like Shionthy and Victoria. As to the Scouts deciding to make E ports on uninhabited worlds, here's my thought: if they're gonna call it a port, there needs to be SOMETHING there to justify it. Me, I'd say the standard is a landing beacon leading to some spot that's reasonably safe to land - the ground ain't gonna give way and leave you with your ship halfway in an underground cave, you aren't going to see trees grow up around the beacon, that sort of thing. And, there's a solar array with batteries, or a geothermal power source, something providing just enough juice that a single ship can plug into to keep the typical ship's life support going indefinitely, in case some unlucky travellers find themselves forced to land on an uninhabited world and wait for their ship to be logged overdue and a rescue effort to be launched for them.

If it doesn't have at least that, then I'd have to wonder what the scout was saying other than to plant a flag and say, "Kilroy was here."
 
Just a word of inspiration here, folks. Much of the work that went into my map site was digging up and attempting to reconcile historical data, and documenting stuff along the way. Now, here come upstarts (like Don and Marc) trying to revise things that have stood the test of the last 40 years. A key phrase to remember: "the future is longer than the past". Hopefully, Traveller and the OTU lasts more than just another 40 years, and if it does so then risks we take now will pay off.
 
Yeah, and I always took the TAS Red Zone to be a travel advisory rather than having the force of law.

I rather like the explanation of TAS Travel Advisories in the sidebar of GT:Far Trader on p. 51:

GT:Far Trader p. 51:
Insurance Underwriters
Originally a service to members, who often couldn’t get conventional insurers to cover them for liability or loss during their more interesting activities, insurance underwriting has become the single largest moneymaker for the TAS. The Society is said to insure for or against anything for a price, and its vast information network ensures that its assessments of risk are the most up-to-date available. The Travel Zone advisories (p. GT70) posted by the Society are an outgrowth of this risk-assessment function that the TAS shares with its members as a courtesy. These are also warnings: venturing into a posted Amber Zone (p. GT19) without paying an additional risk premium could result in non-payment of insurance claims, while deliberately entering a Red Zone (p. GT56) voids most insurance agreements. Of course, if nothing happens, there is nothing to report.

This (to me) makes a lot of sense.

I still think "Fo" and Red zone are redundant.

Not necessarily. "Fo" for forbidden to me implies an official Interdiction or Quarantine. As mentioned above, some Red-Zones may be mere Travel Advisories provided as a service to TAS-members, and not official interdictions/quarantines with the force of law.
 
Just a word of inspiration here, folks. Much of the work that went into my map site was digging up and attempting to reconcile historical data, and documenting stuff along the way. Now, here come upstarts (like Don and Marc) trying to revise things that have stood the test of the last 40 years. A key phrase to remember: "the future is longer than the past". Hopefully, Traveller and the OTU lasts more than just another 40 years, and if it does so then risks we take now will pay off.

Thanks for the research, and hard work, you have performed in creating this most useful product. I couldn't say enough good things about it!

Thanks for the courage shown in pointing out the issues, in part, with recon. Without detracting from either Don’s continual hard work, or Marc, I believe you have hit the nail squarely on the head.
 
Just a word of inspiration here, folks. Much of the work that went into my map site was digging up and attempting to reconcile historical data, and documenting stuff along the way. Now, here come upstarts (like Don and Marc) trying to revise things that have stood the test of the last 40 years. A key phrase to remember: "the future is longer than the past". Hopefully, Traveller and the OTU lasts more than just another 40 years, and if it does so then risks we take now will pay off.

Thanks for the courage shown in pointing out the issues, in part, with recon. Without detracting from either Don’s continual hard work, or Marc, I believe you have hit the nail squarely on the head.

I read the bolded part as satirical, not literal, especially in the context of the two sentences following. Plus, calling Marc Miller an "upstart" really can't be taken as a serious critique, since he was (one of) the main creator(s) of Traveller, and remains the current IP holder. So I read it less as "pointing out the issues" and more as "please be patient with the work in progress and give it a chance".
 
I read the bolded part as satirical, not literal, especially in the context of the two sentences following. Plus, calling Marc Miller an "upstart" really can't be taken as a serious critique, since he was (one of) the main creator(s) of Traveller, and remains the current IP holder. So I read it less as "pointing out the issues" and more as "please be patient with the work in progress and give it a chance".

Ditto.
 
I read the bolded part as satirical, not literal, especially in the context of the two sentences following. Plus, calling Marc Miller an "upstart" really can't be taken as a serious critique, since he was (one of) the main creator(s) of Traveller, and remains the current IP holder. So I read it less as "pointing out the issues" and more as "please be patient with the work in progress and give it a chance".

Please no that the bolded part was not mine, just quoted. I do however hold that TPTB are to free with unnecessary retcon.
 
Please no that the bolded part was not mine, just quoted. I do however hold that TPTB are to free with unnecessary retcon.

I think we all understand. inexorabletash has done some fine work too.

Now if we can talk Marc out of changing what is not broken. :CoW:
 
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