• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

T5SS: Travellermap.com Update

Status
Not open for further replies.
Given the strategic importance of Lanth, I'd say the Imperial Naval presence would be quite high. Given that, and the TL difference between the Sword World Confederation and the Imperial Navy, there wouldn't be much of a contest.
Perhaps, but in that case why did the Sword Worlders attack in the first place? And why did it take the Imperial Navy so long to repel them?

As for the Imperial Navy presence on Lanth, it can't have been that big, seeing as Lanth didn't have a full fleet stationed at the beginning of the 5FW.


Hans
 
Perhaps, but in that case why did the Sword Worlders attack in the first place? And why did it take the Imperial Navy so long to repel them?

As for the Imperial Navy presence on Lanth, it can't have been that big, seeing as Lanth didn't have a full fleet stationed at the beginning of the 5FW.


Hans

How would I know why the powers that be decided the Sword Worlds would attack? Traveller writers have been a bit less than logical or consistent for so long I for one am certain they don't know how to be either.

But, I guess we could use a very loose Japan vs USA scenario and chalk it up to desperation. (Zho agitprop must have been extraordinary! That or there is a whole new psionic paradigm.)

As for the Imperial Navy taking so long to repel them? Again, lack of logic on the part of the authors. That or a "Mouse That Roared" situation. People do put up with flies for awhile before getting up for the flyswatter.

A better question is why do the Sword Worlds continue to exist and be a thorn in the Imperial Arse? (The only class A shipyard is on Gram? And that at TL"C". Where is the potential credible threat?)

Also, what happened with Winston, Entrope and Anselhome? I thought they "joined":rolleyes: the Darrian Confederation.
 
... Traveller writers have been a bit less than logical or consistent for so long I for one am certain they don't know how to be either...
As for the Imperial Navy taking so long to repel them? Again, lack of logic on the part of the authors. That or a "Mouse That Roared" situation. People do put up with flies for awhile before getting up for the flyswatter.

A better question is why do the Sword Worlds continue to exist and be a thorn in the Imperial Arse? (The only class A shipyard is on Gram? And that at TL"C". Where is the potential credible threat?)

Also, what happened with Winston, Entrope and Anselhome? I thought they "joined":rolleyes: the Darrian Confederation.

I agree about the writers and i don't think newer products have addressed it well. I think of them more as a Cuba/pre-ww2 japan. Protected by an alliance with the Zho and able to field a large force. Having the Border Worlds/5 Sisters governments is a mapping/writing mistake IMO.
 
You're on target with this. Corridor now makes no sense. Most depots needed a minor tweak in population, amber zone, military government and a TL uplift. Lishun per DGP is on the closure list when the Rebellion starts. Antares and Lishun were too vulnerable from Julian attacks and mobile bases were being considered. If Lishun is that vulnerable then Corridor and Deneb are more vulnerable to clever Vargr.

IMTU, the CT/MT UWP's we're local standards without military intervention. Simple fix.

I have viewed Depots as having both a military & civilian sides. The TL given in the UWP is what is available on the civilian side for maintenance & repairs. For the military the TL is F or better because of the R&D going on at the Depot.
 
I have viewed Depots as having both a military & civilian sides. The TL given in the UWP is what is available on the civilian side for maintenance & repairs. For the military the TL is F or better because of the R&D going on at the Depot.
But why did the IN build the depot in an inhabited system in the first place? With the local TL lower than 15, they get little help with the primary purpose (nor the other purposes) and civilians complicate the problem of security that is stressed in the canonical description as being of great importance.

To me it's an explanation that introduces new questions.


Hans
 
But why did the IN build the depot in an inhabited system in the first place? With the local TL lower than 15, they get little help with the primary purpose (nor the other purposes) and civilians complicate the problem of security that is stressed in the canonical description as being of great importance.

To me it's an explanation that introduces new questions.
Hans

Services not provided by the military.

Recreation, from sex workers, to eateries, tailors, sporting equipment rentals, etc. A military person needs to distance themselves occasionally from being surrounded by nothing but military.

Sex workers are self explanatory and a touchy subject. Suffice it to say that playing where you work is never a good idea.

The US Army for example has a 14 day menu. That gets old quick and off duty personnel hit all variety of local establishments from fast food to ethnic gourmet.

Every large military base has shops devoted to sewing insignia on, and maintaining, uniforms. Add in shoe shine and quarters cleaning for NCO's and officers etc.

Any upwardly mobile military officer, and senior NCOs, will avail themselves of tailored uniforms if affordable and possible.

Rentals are available through base recreation but are limited in quantity, availability and type. Surfboards, boats, scuba equipment, bicycles, 4 wheeling, RVs, electronics, you name it.

Civilian contact is essential for military personnel far from home for long periods of time. Religious needs, the pretty girl at the ice cream shoppe, shopkeepers, bartenders and waitresses, etc.

In many cases a lower TL is going to work to advantage in both willingness of indigenous domestic labor and currency exchange rates.

Security at the unit level is a tough one, but in depots, those civilians wouldn't need to get near ships. Offices are quite another matter... Security would still be a tough situation no matter what. Military personnel can be corrupted as well as indigenous people.

I think it would be hard for a person having no military background to fathom. Additionally, a small "stay at home military" isn't going to go through the social and ethnic deprivations that a long term, distantly deployed, away from home military will of necessity undergo. Anyone from the "local military" mindset is going to have a hard time with understanding the hardships too, as they were almost always stationed close to home.

Hard to give better examples without transgressing the social and political rules of CotI. A few examples might be the difference between the German "High Seas Fleet" before and during the WW1 era and the US Navy Asiatic fleet and "China Marines" before WW2. The German Fleet was home ported never away from home long. The US Navy and Marines were half way around the globe for years on end.

The movie "The Sand Pebbles" gives a good idea of what this was, and might be, like.
 
Services not provided by the military.

Recreation, from sex workers, to eateries, tailors, sporting equipment rentals, etc. A military person needs to distance themselves occasionally from being surrounded by nothing but military.
Apparently not essential, since we have examples of depots and naval bases with no local civilians at all.

Or perhaps those are the ones that require retcons?

Some of the factors you describe may not apply to a military with gender equality.


Hans
 
Adding on to Hans' comment:

At least with American bases almost all of them have recreation facilities provided by contractors (AAFES) that supplies alternate food sources, drinking (at least beer), creature comfort stores, and sporting goods rentals/ places to use such.

While strictly speaking contractors are civilians, they are also very much not civilian as they have security clearances, and are usually retired service or spouses of service personnel operating these places.

It is reasonable to think that other militaries have similar operations.
 
I was assigned on temporary duty (TDY) to a very small, very high tech base (Imperium High) in an extremely remote, low tech area of the world in the early '70s. It was a couple of hours drive from a minimal local airfield (D at best) at the end of the line for commercial service that supported infrequent military flights. There was a minimal base exchange for essentials. Small Officers' and NCO clubs provided a place for the more senior personnel to drink on base and a break from the mess hall food. A town several miles away by bus supported all other needs as previously described. With sufficient outside support, a high tech military facility can exist in a low tech location without reliance on local technology capabilities.
 
But why did the IN build the depot in an inhabited system in the first place? With the local TL lower than 15, they get little help with the primary purpose (nor the other purposes) and civilians complicate the problem of security that is stressed in the canonical description as being of great importance.

To me it's an explanation that introduces new questions.


Hans

This brings to mind some situations involving U.S. bases. Diego Garcia, we rented the place from the Brits and they moved out all the locals - and not by local consent. A bit over 40% of New Mexico lands are owned by the U.S. government, much of that used for military bases either to provide room for training or to provide seclusion for installations engaged in research requiring extreme levels of security; among other things, we make the bits that make the H-bombs go boom. It's worse for Nevada - over 80% of that state is Federal lands. Vieques was a populated island near Puerto Rico, the Navy owned about 2/3 of it and used that portion as a bombing range until it became controversial and they left.

There are a lot of potential angles on this, but it's hard to make a case for or against any particular view because some of the discussion seems to be evolving from T5 material, and I don't yet have any T5 material :o. (No offense, it's just I've got a kid in college and money is tight.) The decision to make all depots captive governments suggests the Imperium isn't just buying up huge chunks of real estate from the locals - they're taking active control of the primary world itself. It's not entirely clear the local population is anything but Imperial Navy, contractors, and civilian businesses and employees actively supporting the Imperial installation, but the revised Depot populations range from the tens of thousands to the hundreds of millions. Some of those depot populations are so small that they're either ALL navy and related or have rather large populations of uncounted folk, while some of them have so many people that it's difficult to believe all or even most of them are working directly or indirectly for the Navy.

Meanwhile, MegaTrav says depots are a key maintenance setting for the Imperial fleet - which implies either that the depot tech level has nothing to do with the base itself, or that the Navy has a surprising lot of lower tech ships.

Where the depots are concerned, I have a whole lot of unanswered questions.
 
Query: what is the period for the Traveller Map?

I believe it is year 1105.

Correct.

When I originally put the site up (2005!) I was aiming for early 1116, just before the assassination. Given DGP's work, the most comprehensive dataset existed for that instant in time. GURPS Traveller was also more active (and an inspiration for the site), so catering to the point where the timeline split was attractive. So the map originally had the Border Worlds and all that other post-FFW goodness.

The T5SS is starting with 1105, so that's what the map site has now, for official data. Unofficial data is probably a scattering from 990 through 1200 but far from the Imperium it matters less, and you get what you pay for. Being able to pick a time period to view is on the wish list, both for the map site and the T5SS, but getting one point in time nailed down is a prerequisite.
 
The Deneb Question

With all this "fixing" and updating going on, WHY does Deneb (Deneb 1925 Deneb B537ADD-C) continue to have only a Class B starport?

1) Sector Capital with Subsector Duke
2) Total Population 60 BILLION (60,000,000,000)
3) Economics: (Resources= D; Labor= 9; Infrastructure= E; Efficiency= +5)
4) Naval Base

Also, why would they have not raised themselves to TL F a long time ago? They could have bought their tech advances at the very least.
 
With all this "fixing" and updating going on, WHY does Deneb (Deneb 1925 Deneb B537ADD-C) continue to have only a Class B starport?

1) Sector Capital with Subsector Duke
2) Total Population 60 BILLION (60,000,000,000)
3) Economics: (Resources= D; Labor= 9; Infrastructure= E; Efficiency= +5)
4) Naval Base

Also, why would they have not raised themselves to TL F a long time ago? They could have bought their tech advances at the very least.

Fix what? Deneb is what it is. You could blame the Nenlat, you could blame the Vilani, you might blame the Ancients.

Mongooose's Deneb Sector book might answer this question. :rofl:
 
Fix what? Deneb is what it is. You could blame the Nenlat, you could blame the Vilani, you might blame the Ancients.

Mongooose's Deneb Sector book might answer this question. :rofl:

That's cool. If that's what it is, that's fine. Hard to tell anymore what is, and what isn't, going to be the same, or changed. I started looking at systems important to my games when I discovered Emape had a "sudden" shift in stellar type.

If it's not changing, and official, I'll just run with it.

BTW I do believe the question was both legit, and on target. A lot of the Traveller map has changed and been retconed, so why not ask if you think you see an oddity?

Deneb also controls the nearby Amshal (Deneb 1926) system. (They just can't build a ship to get there...)
The Jumpspace Institute is located at Deneb. (And they can't build a jump ship...)

Now the "Non-Canon" portions of the Wiki go a long way towards explaining the problem, but is "Non-Canon" wiki going to be defacto canon?
 
Last edited:
Fix what? Deneb is what it is. You could blame the Nenlat, you could blame the Vilani, you might blame the Ancients.
I don't know who the Nenlat are, but I don't think you can blame the Vilani and you certainly can't blame the Ancients.

I think Michael is quite right about it being questionable that a high-tech, high-population, high resource world like Deneb doesn't have a civilian ship-building industry.

In fact, it's so strange that it falls into the category of abnormalities that require an explanation. And, quite frankly, "I can't come up with a reason, but I'm sure there is one" is a bloody awful 'explanation', if you'll pardon my French.

And if TPTB can't provide a decent explanation, they really ought to change things around until they can (or until it's not necessary -- no need to explain why a high-tech, high-population, high resource world would have a Class A starport).

Mongooose's Deneb Sector book might answer this question. :rofl:
I'm afraid I don't get the joke. Is there an explanation in Mongoose's Deneb Sector book? And if so, may we be vouchsafed a précis?


Hans
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top