T5 Supposition: How Would You Re-order the Chapters and Charts?

[Draconian]

For those with the T5 book or CD-ROM: How would you re-order the chapters and charts in the game to a more sensible arrangement? When answering, consider these guidelines:

• Use the proper names of the existing chapters and chart pages
• Consider what is most crucial to a new player, in the style of current RPG game rulebooks. Games nowadays typically start with flavour-blurb and a careful explanation of role-playing, then what matters to the players (character generation, equipment list, skill mechanics, and combat) and then verge into the game-master information (which here would be spaceship design, star system generation, sophonts, the maker systems, and way way in back the appendix with the dice-roll probabilities and anything else that is optional in nature) and optional background fluff, beast catalogue and an adventure script or two.

So, as an exercise that is non-binding on the publishers, how would you suggest it?

 

[Daddicus]

Use bookmarks or page links or something. Problem is that would double the size of the book, already large.

The CD version could do it, I suspect. But, that would leave the paper people out in the swamp.

 

[Licheking]

I actually think the book is organized fine as it is. But then i don't think the players need a copy of the book to play and i don't like them referencing one when in session, if they have a question they ask me not go and look it up themselves. I know where everything is and i think there is a good and logical order to it at the moment, character creation and combat near the front and the makers and gm stuff at the back.

On saying that i don't see the need for, and have never needed the probabilities tables. The amount of pages taken up with these things could have been better used on more explanations in other chapters or for some flavour text/stories. Why would anyone need to know what the odds are on 3D as opposed to 2D, what you need is what you are rolling under and if your rolling 3D then you know if your C+S+K is higher than 18 you will do it and if not then you roll to find out.

 

[grondak]

I have a specific beef: I would move Education-1 and Education-2 (pp. 100-101) between the Homeworld-2 page (p. 82) and Craftsman 01 (p. 83). That would let you read about education before you pick a career.

 

[Licheking]

yeah fair point, it does make more sense there

 

[cym0k]

How I did it.

For character generation I have done this for personal use (I finalised it this week after giving it a run through):
Pages - 69, 81 - 82, 1 column off page 70 (personal characteristics), 68, 73 - 79, 83 - 97, 100 - 105, and 108 - 111.

This treats a lot of the stuff like education as optional, puts the pages into an order that is likened to a process. Each step is done before moving forward. the character generation process comprises of 4 sections with this method. Find a home world, generate your characteristics, do your career and muster out. Follow the words on the page and it isn't actually THAT hard. I was surprised when putting it together considering the T5 BBB is dripping with detail and clarifications on MMs choices (weights, dice probability, what each characteristic should equate to etc etc etc.)

At the back of my document I put:
142 - skills list
238 - 240 - guns list
Character Sheet

I tried it and generated a basic character from Spinward Marches and mustered him out in around 10 minutes. He only did 8 years in his total career, but had ship shares, and some life insurance and some pocket money. The rest of the 'equipping' and ship related stuff I would then focus toward a campaign when the GM and other players are ready to go.

However, the document does not explain eHex or dice conventions. It is just there to speed up the character design procedure.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

For those with the T5 book or CD-ROM: How would you re-order the chapters and charts in the game to a more sensible arrangement? When answering, consider these guidelines:

• Use the proper names of the existing chapters and chart pages
• Consider what is most crucial to a new player, in the style of current RPG game rulebooks. Games nowadays typically start with flavour-blurb and a careful explanation of role-playing, then what matters to the players (character generation, equipment list, skill mechanics, and combat) and then verge into the game-master information (which here would be spaceship design, star system generation, sophonts, the maker systems, and way way in back the appendix with the dice-roll probabilities and anything else that is optional in nature) and optional background fluff, beast catalogue and an adventure script or two.

So, as an exercise that is non-binding on the publishers, how would you suggest it?

I guess this is where the modular setup of previous versions of Traveller allowed for the arrangement any way you liked. Personally I wouldn't want to go re-arranging it at all. Why? Because I'd like each and every fellow Traveller to be on the same page as it were when discussing rules etc. As most Travellers have pointed out, an index would have been nice and prevented the need for sticky notes throughout the book. Otherwise a bookmark at the key contents sections does ok by me.

 

[Daddicus]

I wouldn't necessarily reorder much, but I would sell flowcharts for the various processes. I'm developing my own, but it's a pain trying to make sure everything is included.

 

[Epee]

I'm generally okay with the order of the rules. I have gone through the PDF and printed out the pages containing charts and tables likely to be needed in game; combat flow and modifiers, trade, personals, orbits, etc. This saves quite so much flipping around and keeps the game space more open.

 

[atpollard]

Given the general agreement among Traveller fans that we disagree on most things and the fact that we house-rule even the parts that work ...

... I would issue T5 as a three ring binder with topics broken down to fit one page front and back. This grants every user the freedom to customize to his heart's content.

[Plus it makes it easier to insert your house rules.]

 

[daltoncalford]

For my part, it is less about reordering and more about, stripping/moving to other books.

For example, the entire chapter on dice probabilities should be in a referees guide, along with epic and many other elements.
All the makers should be stripped out and put into a series of maker booklets.

All that should be in a core book is

How to play (basic mechanics)
Character Creation (generic, with no discussion of genetics or artificial sophants)
Equipment Guide (no makers, just an explanation of generally available equipment and how to use it in the game)
Basic Combat
The Universe (basic concepts on starports, living expenses etc)

Separate booklets on Starships, Aliens, Worlds, Creatures etc.

In this way, you can hand the core book to a new player and they can play the game. When they want to build a universe, the other booklets are there in simple to use, non-intimidating formats.
When I go to a game, I am not going to spend the time in a corner designing worlds, guns and other such things - so why should I have to carry a few pounds of paper that details such things?

The current presentation is great for people who like to meta game and imagine playing, but, for those of us who do get into regular games, it is next to useless and scares away potential players.

 

[daltoncalford]

After reading my post, I am thinking that we need a series of small books - that can be handed out as needed.

I think the idea of a series of booklets is what is needed.

A 'Core' series of books, like the original little black books.
A 'Supplements' series, describing generic equipment, Characters, Creatures etc that can be used in any traveller universe.
A 'Far Future' series that detail aspects of the official Traveller Universe

So, a referee could hand out an 'Introduction to Traveller' booklet with a 'Guide to the Far Future' along with a pregenerated character sheet and they are ready to play.
Once the player is comfortable enough with the system that they want to create their own characters, they are handed the character creation guide and possible the OTU Alien Reference Guide.
During the game, the supplements for equipment, or vehicles could be handed out for purchasing.

The players only have to handle what they need, while it is cheap enough to buy/print a booklet multiple times depending upon need - unlike the current hard cover which is too big and expensive (and fragile) for regular use.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

After reading my post, I am thinking that we need a series of small books - that can be handed out as needed.

I think the idea of a series of booklets is what is needed.

A 'Core' series of books, like the original little black books.
A 'Supplements' series, describing generic equipment, Characters, Creatures etc that can be used in any traveller universe.
A 'Far Future' series that detail aspects of the official Traveller Universe

So, a referee could hand out an 'Introduction to Traveller' booklet with a 'Guide to the Far Future' along with a pregenerated character sheet and they are ready to play.
Once the player is comfortable enough with the system that they want to create their own characters, they are handed the character creation guide and possible the OTU Alien Reference Guide.
During the game, the supplements for equipment, or vehicles could be handed out for purchasing.

The players only have to handle what they need, while it is cheap enough to buy/print a booklet multiple times depending upon need - unlike the current hard cover which is too big and expensive (and fragile) for regular use.

I guess that's where having the PDF is your friend. You can print out the sections you want and organise it however you want to.

 

[daltoncalford]

Yes, and now all we need is a pdf that has the errata applied to it.

 

[Hemdian]

Whether you reorder or whether you split into separate books or whatever, for me the issue is explanations and examples. In going through the T5 book I am frequently reading something and saying, "Yes, but what does that mean?" Usually when I do eventually work it out, it's a case of, "Well that's a really neat idea!" or something similar. But there is a big gap between these two sentiments and I think too many are stuck on the first.

 

[Midgardsormr]

I agree. More examples are sorely needed. Even most of the ones that exist are inadequate because they frequently only show one side of an event. Like the armor examples in the combat section, which are effectively identical. It would have been far better if one of them had shown what happens when the armor is penetrated.

The Personals section, though, has excellent examples of example-writing.

 

[Licheking]

The current presentation is great for people who like to meta game and imagine playing, but, for those of us who do get into regular games, it is next to useless and scares away potential players.

Not sure what you mean by Metagame, but i love the big book, it has everything in one place in a, to my mind, logical order. I have always hated lots of books to just run a game you constantly having to flip back and forth and trying to remember which rule is in which book i don't get that with the BBB. As for scaring away players it has had the opposite affect on my group, several of them are now scouring eBay to find a copy for themselves (not so happy about that, but what can you do) and one guy was thinking of converting his own game from MT to T5 once he gets the book.

As i have said before, i don't see the need for the probabilities section, that could have been dropped in my opinion and replaced with more and better examples and explanations. And the Education bit could have been put before Careers, but other than that I'm happy with the BBB as is.

 

[daltoncalford]

Hi Licheking,

A metagame (game within a game or game that encompases multiple other sub-games) is represented by your description of your gaming sessions.

So far, Carl who has posted about his first games has not detailed any actual role-playing, only character creation and discussing the next session being about designing a starship.

Are his players playing naval architects? If not, why should they bother? Strangely, many on this forum support the idea of metagame over regular game. I do not need to know how to build a car from scratch in order to drive. Designing an alien race, a world, a starship, a vehicle are all part of the metagame. Character creation is also a metagame in that you can have your character die during creation if you so choose that option.

Traveller is a role-playing game, which is by definition a very creative, improv-based system. The meta-game concept is for advanced players who already understand that most of the rules are only for reference while not actually roleplaying. The metagame is great for those who don't have time for people to come game with them.

Now, go to a group of friends who don't know what rpg's are, ask them if they want to play a game and then whip out the BBB. Tell me what your reaction is.

Now, you can spend weeks preparing smaller handouts, pre-generated characters, equipment lists etc., but, even if the new players only would use the few sheets of paper presented to them, the sheer size of the BBB will put off the majority of potential players. Games are for fun. Most people do not equate 600+ pages of dry reading and procedural formulas as fun.

I don't know about your friends, but mine do not consider reference charts on dice probabilities to be as enticing as turning on a video game or watching a game of rugby.

Combine that with the typical age of many gamers, and you will see that they have jobs, kids, responsibilities. Carrying around a few pounds of book with you for light lunch reading or reviewing on a train just does not make sense.
So, the book is too big for the average gamer to use when they have those few free moments to read it.

With the LBB format, I can carry just the section I am reading - light, easy, friendly.

The BBB may work for your group, but, it is not conducive to getting new players or supporting those players who are already into the game.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Enter the Smart Ass!

/snip/

Now, go to a group of friends who don't know what rpg's are, ask them if they want to play a game and then whip out the BBB. Tell me what your reaction is.

/ka-snip/

Well, since my friends had been hearing about it (and helping work out a few kinks) their reaction was "Congratulations!".

Unfortunately, they are far more into that damned fantasy games. Grrr. But still they did enjoy seeing the parts they improved.

 

[Licheking]

As i have mentioned elsewhere it must be an area/culture thing, because round my way the younger players are looking for detail and complexity not simplicity, D&D3, 3.5 and 4 have all failed where I'm from because its too simple. And thats from new and old gamers alike.

I agree the price tag may well hurt getting gamers into T5 but on saying that the next generation of gamers those still player Warhammer and its ilk pay that for the basic game without any army books or figures, so I'm not so sure that the price is the factor.

And just so you know, i don't game within a game. Once the stuff is designed it sits in a catalogue which the players can access when they want to buy something, but we do not try building things mid game, that stuff goes on outside of sessions and is all done by me, except where the players are specifically looking for something or getting something custom built.