T5 support and other questions.

[Supplement Four]

So, does anyone have any ideas on how to fix the handgun issue?

Simple. Either create a new attack type for single fire weapons or change the definition of the existing attack types so that a single fire weapon can use that attack type and move.

I think the answer is to add a new attack type called SingleFire that allows movment and attacking with single fire weapons.





But, there are other problems with the T5 Combat mechanics, as I said above.

For example, there's no real reason to ever use SnapFire in the game. It really has no reason to exist.

Page 214 of T5 presents the three attack types for ranged weapons: Aimed Fire, AutoFire, and SnapFire. According to that description, AutoFire can be attempted at Speed=0 or Speed=1 (standing still or walking). AutoFire also requires a weapon capable of Burst, automatic, or continuous fire. Using AutoFire adds +1D to difficulty but inflicts +2D damage if a hit is obtained that pentrates the target's armor.

Compare that to SnapFire. SnapFire can also only be attempted at Speed=0 or Speed=1, no different than AutoFire. SnapFire also requires a weapon capable of Burst, Automatic, or Continous Fire--also the same as AutoFire. But, SnapFire is harder to achieve than AutoFire as SnapFire requires +2D difficulty. And if a hit is made, and penetration is achieved, the bonus SnapFire damage is only +1D.

If this is the case, why would anyone ever use SnapFire? SnapFire has the same requirements as AutoFire, but SnapFire's difficulty is harder while success brings less damage to bear on the target.

As written, that's another problem.




Add this to some confusing typos--

Page 218 provides a chart that does not agree with the written text on page 214 and offers one difference between SnapFire and AutoFire. On that chart, SnapFire is available at Speed=0, Speed=1, or Speed=2. If this is true, then SnapFire is the only attack type available while running. So, a person, if running, would use SnapFire, otherwise, he'd use AutoFire.



And, once you fix the SingleFire problem, you've got yet another problem to face: Many pistols cannot harm NPCs!

The NPC Damage rule, mentioned in a few places in the book (starting on page 214), states that a Ref should ignore damage to a PC that is 9 or less and take the NPC out of the combat when damage is 10 or more. Many pistols do Bullet-1 damage. That means damage is 1D. Rolling a 10 is impossible.

Therefore, a PC can never damage an NPC using many pistols (and any other weapons) in the game.

This is also true in Brawling combat. According to page 260, "fists" do 1D damage, and thus, if fighting an NPC, can never damage that NPC.



T5 Combat needs a complete overhaul. It's a mess. And, what I've listed here aren't the only problems--just some of the bigger ones.

 

[Hemdian]

Simple. Either create a new attack type for single fire weapons or change the definition of the existing attack types so that a single fire weapon can use that attack type and move.

I think the answer is to add a new attack type called SingleFire that allows movment and attacking with single fire weapons.

I was thinking of adding a new 'Weapon Control Markings' type on p256 ... "RapidSingle" ... for Pistols and Revolvers, and saying it should be treated as equivalent to "Burst" (ie. allows snap fire). Either that or in the rule about attack types, make a distinction between one-handed and two-handed weapons (allow one-handed single shot weapons to conduct snap fire).

Page 214 of T5 presents the three attack types for ranged weapons:

Page 218 provides a chart that does not agree with the written text on page 214

Looks like a simple typo on p214. I assumed p218 was correct.

The NPC Damage rule,

I see this as an optional add-on to simplify the Referee's life. It seems likely that it is broken. The solution (for now) is simply to treat NPCs as regular characters. And once the main combat rules have been sorted out we can always circle around later to see if the NPC Damage Rule can be salvaged.

T5 Combat needs a complete overhaul. It's a mess. And, what I've listed here aren't the only problems--just some of the bigger ones.

That seems a little extreme. We've got a few different ideas on how to fix the handgun issue, one typo, and an optional rule that's broken but can be easily jettisoned for now. What are the other issues?

 

[Supplement Four]

What are the other issues?

There are several. I'll give you a couple of more examples, but just read the Combat chapter. You should see them.


For example, Multiple Targeting. The combat round is abstract, measuring anything from a few seconds to a minute or more. Generally, we consider the combat round to reflect a minute or so of game time. If three combat rounds are played, we consider that roughly three minutes in the game world and move on.

As abstract as the game round is, one attack throw represents anything from one pull of the trigger to several. One attack throw could even mean that the character unloaded a full magazine, changed mags, and unloaded a second.

But, with all that lead being thrown in a about a minute's time, we can't attack more than one target.*

With just about any weapon, even a revolver, a character should be able to attack more than one target. Certainly, two more shots can be squeezed off with a semi-automatic pistol, at more than one target, in just a few seconds.

*On a table on page 216, not in the Combat Chapter text, is the Suppression rule where an attacker can use AutoFire (only) to attack every enemey that who makes an attack during the round. But, when using the Suppression rule, the attacker cannot initiate attacks--he can only respond to enemy attacks.

Does that make sense?

You've got an ACR, and you switch it to full auto. If you make a normal attack, you can fire at one target. But, if you go with Suppression fire, you can attack the 15 NPCs that just fired at you--but you've got to wait until they fire first. You can't use Suppression fire to keep the enemy's heads down and keep them from firing in the first place.

There's all sorts of "that doesn't make sense" here.







More?

OK.

Look at Brawling. How do we settle hand-to-hand or melee conflicts? The Combat Chapter doesn't touch on it, and if you use the Fighting Task from the combat chapter, Brawling tasks will always hit because Fighting Task difficult is based on Range. The difficulty to hit someone is a 1D task.

Turning to the skills chapter, we see a different method of handling Brawling Combat. We are given two choices. Both are Opposed Throws. We can throw an Opposed Throw to settle an entire brawl. Or, we can throw an Opposed Throw every combat round.
The Opposed Throw to win a brawl is very arbitrary and restrictive. First, a brawl involving the PCs, resloved with one throw like this, just isn't fun. Action that should be highlighted and involving for the players is reduced to a single throw.

A maximum of 4 fighters can particpate in the brawl. Why? What if there are more? Two crews from two rival adventure class vessels makes for a typical Traveller bar brawl, and this rule, as written, could not accomodate that situation.

In addition, the winner of the Opposed Throw is completely undamaged, even though he's just made it through a brawl, and all others that lost the Opposed Throw take an abritrary 2D damage for the entire fight.

The other Opposed Throw is rolled each combat round to resolve a single round of a brawl. The throw is basically the same as the one used to resolve an entire brawl with one task (3D Difficulty < STR + Unarmed), except, with this one, 6 can participate instead of 4. Why? Damage is applied to the highest throw rolled--again, it's an arbritrary 3D damage. How come only one person out of six in a brawl got hurt during that one minute of combat?

None of that really makes sense or serves as a good Brawling mechanic.





As I said earlier, T5 Combat needs a complete overhaul.

 

[Licheking]

Yes i would love to post them but i have had problems in the past posting things on the site and it almost got me banned because i kept breaking some rule or other over posting and there not being anything visible. I will compile them into a document and then send it via email if you wish or i could start a new thread with the mods i have made.

 

[CosmicGamer]

There are several. I'll give you a couple of more examples, but just read the Combat chapter. You should see them.

Might want to start new threads for the different issues if there isn't already.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Whatever way you read it, the contradiction really isn't the issue.

Agreed. You had brought it up as a point to support the following and if this was your main issue, I was trying to point out an issue I saw with that correlation.

I was only trying to point out that The problem is that a dude with a single shot rifle can either move or shoot during a round, but not both.

But, the same dude, if he just picks up a weapon--same size and weight--that is capable of burst fire or better, he can now move and shoot in the same combat round.

There lies the problem.

I do completely see how you can think that.

Again, there may be a wording misinterpretation thing going on. What I'm trying to clear up is that there is a big difference between what can and can't be done vs mechanics provided in the document.

Nothing says a dude with a single shot rifle can't fire and move.

Based on my interpretation, there just isn't a mechanic for it.

So, does anyone have any ideas on how to fix the handgun issue?

Part of my problem is that the way some people state this it seams like the implication is that there is a problem with the publication and all people should acknowledge it. I first want to clear up that people are different and while I can acknowledge and understand where you are coming from, I personally do not see an issue that needs to be fixed.

But I hear you and can provide an answer. Lets break it down to individual mechanics.

Aimed Fire
It makes sense that if you are moving you need to be looking at where you are going so that you don't trip over a rock or run into a tree. So the mechanic is that for an effective aimed shot, the character is stationary. If moving, the character needs to use a different attack. I don't see an issue with this. If you (generic - not singling anyone out) do, please explain.

AutoFire
This is for weapons that rapidly fire large amounts of projectiles. Pistols do not fall in this category. I don't see an issue with this. If you (generic - not singling anyone out) do, please explain.

SnapFire
Sorry, I can't recall the details of this.
I don't have T5 rules to consult - only access is via my GM friends copy.

Movement
Certain weapons are more effective "move and spray" and pray that something hits than pistols. I don't see an issue with this. Separate from no mechanic for single shot move and effectively fire, if you (generic - not singling anyone out) do, please explain.

So, now we come to the crux for some. I don't think it is with any of the rules above though. Some think a single shot weapon should be able to effectively be fired while moving. I acknowledge your position, and will get to it, but please bear with me as I explain that my solution is not agreement or criticism of those who think that no mechanic is needed. There is no mechanic for calculating if a weapon hits and how much damage is done if the target is out of range. That does not mean a character can't fire their weapon. A possible interpretation is that a mechanic was not provided because doing such a combination is ineffective and like firing a weapon when out of range, is simply role played with no mechanic or roll for possibility of success and damage. (Just a side thought: For all attacks, where do all those bullets that miss go?)

Now for my promised suggestion of a solution.
Just simply add a new type of attack.
EDIT: I see others have responded since I first started composing this. I got distracted with real life. Here are my details.

- Less effective than Aimed Fire since, um, well, you are not aiming.
- You don't have to move but can with a penalty.

Sorry I can't be more detailed but I'd need to scrutinize the rules to find a good balance.

 

[Supplement Four]

Yes i would love to post them but i have had problems in the past posting things on the site and it almost got me banned because i kept breaking some rule or other over posting and there not being anything visible. I will compile them into a document and then send it via email if you wish or i could start a new thread with the mods i have made.

Start a new thread. If you've got some good ideas, I bet other T5 players would benefit from them. Or, at least like to see them.

 

[Supplement Four]

Nothing says a dude with a single shot rifle can't fire and move.

But T5 does say exactly that.

Page 214 gives the player three Attack Types: Aimed Fire, AutoFire, and SnapFire.

AutoFire cannot be used with a single shot rifle as AutoFire requires a weapon capable of burst, automatic, or continuous fire.

SnapFire cannot be used with a single shot rifle as SnapFire requires a weapon capable of burst, automatic, or continuous fire.

AimedFire is the only option available when a character is using a single shot weapon, and with AimedFire, the attacker cannot move in the same round that he uses AimedFire.



In T5, if you have a single shot weapon, the rules do not allow you to move and attack in the same combat round.

 

[mvdwege]

So, does anyone have any ideas on how to fix the handgun issue?

I am not clear that there is an issue worth fixing. The price in added compexity is just not worth it in my eyes; one can try to make up rules accounting for every single bullet, but that quickly becomes cumbersome.

An abstraction that flat out says that a handgun is worthless in an extended firefight is OK by me.

 

[CosmicGamer]

In T5, if you have a single shot weapon, the rules do not allow you to move and attack in the same combat round.

From what I know, Agreed. 100%.


But "attack" as a game mechanic is not the same as "firing" or "shooting" a weapon. Again, I hope my English is not the problem. I apologize if I misinterpret. Let me elaborate.

For me, it is a role playing game. Characters can fire their weapons any time they want within logic.

- They can't if they are out of ammo.
- Is there a attack mechanic for a character celebrating new years and firing their gun in the air? I don't think so. Does that mean they can't do it? That would be silly.
- If they are out of range they can't attack but they can fire their weapon.
- If they have a single shot weapon and are moving they can't attack but they can fire their weapon.

If your interpretation of the rules is that a character can't move and shoot a single shot weapon I can 100% see where you get that from but barring something new, I disagree. I 100% agree there is no game mechanic for it. I even suggest a game mechanic for personal use.

The points I do disagree on are not an attack on you. The only reason I keep going on is because I don't understand certain details, and want to learn better how to understand and communicate. I need to find a better way to explain myself or elicit a response with more detail so that I can understand.

Have a good day!

 

[Hemdian]

I am not clear that there is an issue worth fixing. The price in added compexity is just not worth it in my eyes; one can try to make up rules accounting for every single bullet, but that quickly becomes cumbersome.

Totally agree with the principle. But, although I'm no gun expert, I believe it is possible to move and fire snap shots with a modern pistol and the rules don't allow that.

 

[Hemdian]

Multiple Targeting. The combat round is abstract, measuring anything from a few seconds to a minute or more. Generally, we consider the combat round to reflect a minute or so of game time. If three combat rounds are played, we consider that roughly three minutes in the game world and move on.

As abstract as the game round is, one attack throw represents anything from one pull of the trigger to several. One attack throw could even mean that the character unloaded a full magazine, changed mags, and unloaded a second.

But, with all that lead being thrown in a about a minute's time, we can't attack more than one target.*

With just about any weapon, even a revolver, a character should be able to attack more than one target. Certainly, two more shots can be squeezed off with a semi-automatic pistol, at more than one target, in just a few seconds.

No. The TOTAL number of rounds in a combat can be considered to take a similar number of minutes but the rounds themselves are variable in length.

A round is a unit of action. If you want to fire at one target, that takes a round. If you want to fire at two targets, that takes two rounds ... one each. It could be argued that in the later case the rounds are IMPLIED to be half as long as in the first case.

 

[Hemdian]

*On a table on page 216, not in the Combat Chapter text, is the Suppression rule where an attacker can use AutoFire (only) to attack every enemey that who makes an attack during the round. But, when using the Suppression rule, the attacker cannot initiate attacks--he can only respond to enemy attacks.

Does that make sense?

You've got an ACR, and you switch it to full auto. If you make a normal attack, you can fire at one target. But, if you go with Suppression fire, you can attack the 15 NPCs that just fired at you--but you've got to wait until they fire first. You can't use Suppression fire to keep the enemy's heads down and keep them from firing in the first place.

There's all sorts of "that doesn't make sense" here.

Actually it does.

First of all, we're not talking about the force of your fire physically pushing the target down, we're talking about creating a danger space that the enemy will be reluctant to expose themselves to. So right off the bat that is what the rules are doing: it says to the targets "expose yourself and you could be hit".

Second, you're not really waiting for a target to present itself and then pulling the trigger. You are firing anyway. You just aren't bothering to roll for the shots that automatically didn't hit anything. (If collateral damage were a factor then you would need to but not otherwise.) Although ammunition usage isn't tracked, even if no targets expose themselves (and you make no attack rolls) you've still burned through a third of your magazine.

 

[Hemdian]

Look at Brawling. How do we settle hand-to-hand or melee conflicts? The Combat Chapter doesn't touch on it, and if you use the Fighting Task from the combat chapter, Brawling tasks will always hit because Fighting Task difficult is based on Range. The difficulty to hit someone is a 1D task.

Turning to the skills chapter, we see a different method of handling Brawling Combat. We are given two choices. Both are Opposed Throws. We can throw an Opposed Throw to settle an entire brawl. Or, we can throw an Opposed Throw every combat round.

The Opposed Throw to win a brawl is very arbitrary and restrictive. First, a brawl involving the PCs, resloved with one throw like this, just isn't fun. Action that should be highlighted and involving for the players is reduced to a single throw.

A maximum of 4 fighters can particpate in the brawl. Why? What if there are more? Two crews from two rival adventure class vessels makes for a typical Traveller bar brawl, and this rule, as written, could not accomodate that situation.

In addition, the winner of the Opposed Throw is completely undamaged, even though he's just made it through a brawl, and all others that lost the Opposed Throw take an abritrary 2D damage for the entire fight.

The other Opposed Throw is rolled each combat round to resolve a single round of a brawl. The throw is basically the same as the one used to resolve an entire brawl with one task (3D Difficulty < STR + Unarmed), except, with this one, 6 can participate instead of 4. Why? Damage is applied to the highest throw rolled--again, it's an arbritrary 3D damage. How come only one person out of six in a brawl got hurt during that one minute of combat?

None of that really makes sense or serves as a good Brawling mechanic.

First, I agree that the combat chapter doesn't cover brawling.

Second, I would use the single roll from the Skills chapter when I (as Referee) need to quickly resolve something 'off camera'. Normally I'd use the per-round task in the Skills chapter. I think the difference in the number of participants between the two tasks is a typo and would go with 4 in both cases.

Also, if there was a large barroom brawl (for example) the 4 participant limit doesn't mean only 4 people can be involved in that barroom brawl, it means that the barroom brawl is (in any one round) actually multiple simultaneous brawls. Of course, from one round to the next, a participant in one brawl might switch to another brawl, but they're only in one brawl at a time.

One implication of the 4 participant limit is that when it's 3 on 1, that 1 person can still mount some sort of defence ... it's still a fight. But more than that, say 10 on 1, and it's not a fight anymore, it's just beating the sh*t out of someone. Such cases wouldn't be resolved with a brawling task.

 

[Hemdian]

Part of my problem is that the way some people state this it seams like the implication is that there is a problem with the publication and all people should acknowledge it. I first want to clear up that people are different and while I can acknowledge and understand where you are coming from, I personally do not see an issue that needs to be fixed.

Sorry, all my posts are "IMHO". I did not mean to speak for others out of turn.

I do think most of the issues raised are either simple typos or misinterpretations. (The abstract nature of what is a round seems particularly confusing for some.) I think the rules more-or-less work. However ...

Some think a single shot weapon should be able to effectively be fired while moving.

Not necessarily all single-shot weapons, I'd be surprised if you could fire a LAW rocket while moving, but modern pistols and revolvers definitely yes. But not sure about archaic handguns like flintlocks, etc.

(Just a side thought: For all attacks, where do all those bullets that miss go?)

Indeed!

 

[Supplement Four]

- They can't if they are out of ammo.

That's another problem with T5 Combat. There's no ammo tracking, so there's no way to know when a character is out of ammo outside of Ref fiat.

A character can fire and fire and fire to his hearts content. Why use burst fire or single shot when there's no real need to conserve ammo? Always go full auto, if you can!

And, this has the side effect of making burst/full auto weapons a better choice than any single fire weapon in T5.

- Is there a attack mechanic for a character celebrating new years and firing their gun in the air? I don't think so. Does that mean they can't do it? That would be silly.
- If they are out of range they can't attack but they can fire their weapon.
- If they have a single shot weapon and are moving they can't attack but they can fire their weapon.

This is sidetracking the discussion. We're talking about the T5 Combat rules--not doing other types of actions.

 

[Supplement Four]

SnapFire Variant

But T5 does say exactly that.

Page 214 gives the player three Attack Types: Aimed Fire, AutoFire, and SnapFire.

AutoFire cannot be used with a single shot rifle as AutoFire requires a weapon capable of burst, automatic, or continuous fire.

SnapFire cannot be used with a single shot rifle as SnapFire requires a weapon capable of burst, automatic, or continuous fire.

AimedFire is the only option available when a character is using a single shot weapon, and with AimedFire, the attacker cannot move in the same round that he uses AimedFire.



In T5, if you have a single shot weapon, the rules do not allow you to move and attack in the same combat round.

HERE'S A SUGGESTION...

Allow Single Fire weapons to conduct SnapFire.



A character with a single shot weapon has two choices in combat. He can conduct AimedFire or SnapFire.

Single Shot Weapon - AimedFire means attacking or moving in the round, but not both. If an attack is made, the Fighting Task is made with no additional modifiers.

Single Shot Weaon - SnapFire* allows the character to both move and attack during the round, but any attacks are made with +2D difficulty (but also provides +1D damage if penetration is achieved).

*The T5 rules conflict on how much movement is allowed with SnapFire. Page 214 stipulates that only Speed=0 and Speed=1 is allowed with the attack type, while the table on page 218 clearly shows Speed=0, Speed=1, and Speed=2 all are allowed.

I suggest that SnapFire be used up to Speed=3 so that characters using weapons capable of burst fire or full auto have a reason to use the attack type.






A character using a weapon capable of burst, automatic, or continous fire has three attack options.

Burst/Auto Weapon - AimedFire means attacking or moving in the round, but not both. If an attack is made, the Fighting Task is made with no additional modifiers.

Burst/Auto Weapon - SnapFire allows the character to both move and attack during the round, but any attacks are made with +2D difficulty (but also provides +1D damage if penetration is achieved). If a character needs to run (Speed=3) and attack in the same combat round, this is the option to use.

Burst/Auto Weapon - AutoFire allows the character to both move and attack during the round, but any attacks are made with a +1D difficulty (but also provides +2D damage if penetration is achieved). Movement is limited to Speed=0 or Speed=1.



That should fix the situation nicely.



EDIT: I just added this to my growing list of T5 Fixes.

 

[whulorigan]

Yes i would love to post them but i have had problems in the past posting things on the site and it almost got me banned because i kept breaking some rule or other over posting and there not being anything visible. I will compile them into a document and then send it via email if you wish or i could start a new thread with the mods i have made.

Start a new thread. If you've got some good ideas, I bet other T5 players would benefit from them. Or, at least like to see them.

I would love to have a personal document, but I also agree with S4. Post a new thread: "Licheking's T⁵ House Rules" or something to that effect (and if you figure out how to resolve the posting issue, attach a link to your document).

I think everyone should be able to see what you are doing and benefit from it and the subsequent discussion. In fact, it may even lead to official errata.

 

[Licheking]

Will start the post then once i get home.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Holy cows!

HERE'S A SUGGESTION...

Allow Single Fire weapons to conduct SnapFire.

A character with a single shot weapon has two choices in combat. He can conduct AimedFire or SnapFire.

Single Shot Weapon - AimedFire means attacking or moving in the round, but not both. If an attack is made, the Fighting Task is made with no additional modifiers.

Single Shot Weaon - SnapFire* allows the character to both move and attack during the round, but any attacks are made with +2D difficulty (but also provides +1D damage if penetration is achieved).

*The T5 rules conflict on how much movement is allowed with SnapFire. Page 214 stipulates that only Speed=0 and Speed=1 is allowed with the attack type, while the table on page 218 clearly shows Speed=0, Speed=1, and Speed=2 all are allowed.

I suggest that SnapFire be used up to Speed=3 so that characters using weapons capable of burst fire or full auto have a reason to use the attack type.


A character using a weapon capable of burst, automatic, or continous fire has three attack options.

Burst/Auto Weapon - AimedFire means attacking or moving in the round, but not both. If an attack is made, the Fighting Task is made with no additional modifiers.

Burst/Auto Weapon - SnapFire allows the character to both move and attack during the round, but any attacks are made with +2D difficulty (but also provides +1D damage if penetration is achieved). If a character needs to run (Speed=3) and attack in the same combat round, this is the option to use.

Burst/Auto Weapon - AutoFire allows the character to both move and attack during the round, but any attacks are made with a +1D difficulty (but also provides +2D damage if penetration is achieved). Movement is limited to Speed=0 or Speed=1.

That should fix the situation nicely.

EDIT: I just added this to my growing list of T5 Fixes.

Congrats, Supp4, you got me to see a point of yours and I really like the solution as that was the one I was also thinking would fix your gripe. This is really good and I think you should post it in the T5 Errata thread. It keeps to the Traveller meme of everything involves some form of tradeoffs and, dare I say, elegant.

Hell, I might even use this Fix, even though I don't have an issue with the current rules. And, I do think this may solve your pistol/NPC problem too, as now a pistol using SnapFire is putting more lead into the target.