T5 Question For Rob or Don - Ammo???

[robject]

Thats nice simple and workable. It doesn't have to bear any resemblance to real world ammo prices. I think the weight calculation might not hold up. For one thing there are lots of other factors involved in damage or lethality such as caliber and muzzle velocity.

Either way I'm snaffling your post for future tinkering

And it needs serious tinkering. I'm sure it can be geeked out to no end. What I want is a simple system. Make it a simple table if there are some nonlinearities involved. But if my players really care about ammo, I will hand them one sheet of paper to cover everything and say "here".

But... the fewer options I give them, the less time they'll waste shopping.


Hmm. Maybe I have the rules backwards. What if mass depended on number of effects, and cost depended on the total damage?

So for example,

20 rounds of Bullet-2 Frag-1 costs 20 x Cr3 = 60 credits, and masses 20 x 2 x 10 = 400 grams.

 

[Reban]

Smallarms caliber

In the same vein as Robject's SWAG I'll share a rule of thumb I've been using for small arms caliber.


This applies to long guns and machineguns. Pistols and shotguns also benefit from this approach but vary a little less.

I consider what the caliber might be using Burden as a guide:

VLight > 4mm = .22, .204Ruger,
Light = 4mm = 5.56mmNATO .222, .22Long rifle, 5.45mm
Medium = 7mm = .303, 7.62mmNATO, .30cal, 270 Winchester, 6.5mm
Heavy = 10mm = 12.7mm .50cal, 14.5mm
VHeavy = 20mm = 15mm Heavy machine gun from TNE and vehicle mounted chainguns and anti-materiel rifles. Above 20mm we're into Guns

These are not hard and fast. A light rifle might fire a bigger round than 5.56mm. A Medium Rifle might be available in both 5.56mm and 7.62mm versions. Assess the recoil and other factors to see what fits best.

IMTU the Imperium standardizes on 4mm, 7mm, 10mm and 13mm rounds with 15mm for vehicle machineguns. They standardize the round, manufacture and supply in the millions and allow units of the Imperial Army or Colonial/Mobile Forces to equip with weapons designed around these rounds.

 

[Reban]

But... the fewer options I give them, the less time they'll waste shopping.


Hmm. Maybe I have the rules backwards. What if mass depended on number of effects, and cost depended on the total damage?

So for example,

20 rounds of Bullet-2 Frag-1 costs 20 x Cr3 = 60 credits, and masses 20 x 2 x 10 = 400 grams.

Fewer options are good.

I think the average round should be about 10g, but 400g for a 20 round magazine might a be good working figure.

You might take into account that this is mass produced ammo. Match grade, used by snipers and match shooters, will be more expensive.

I'll grab FF&S when I have a minute and look at the mods it uses.

 

[Major B]

Reban, I was told that the storage allowance for size 5 missiles was twenty (each) per ton which for a T4 turret would work out to 5 reloads.

Can you check your notes again and let me know which is right?

Depending on your response, I'll likely have to make some changes to this post, so thanks.

 

[Reban]

The 5 was my mistake, its 5 mansized sophonts in 1ton for VehicleMaker.

Have you access to the Beta test forum Major because the thread is here: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=29374

Here's where the figure of 20 came from:

I worked out a rough volume of a Size 5 missile as 840liters using ThingMaker (which doesn't calculate volume of a cylinder in the RAW btw) and then divided that into a ton:

13500/840 = 16 Size 5 Missiles can fit in a turret, but that takes no account of the launcher and other gear so the best I can say right now is that for a Size 5 missile in the middle of the range of L values there will be less that 16 missiles in a 1dton turret.

After which Robject contributed the following:

Note the maximum capacity considering launch mechanism, subtract 5 for Standard, and apply Flux to determine nonstandard turrets.

Call the max 20. Subtract 5 = 15 (a nice number for triple turrets).

We didn't really come to a final conclusion. I came round to the idea of using 700liters as the "standard" volume for a standard Size 5 missile. That would give about 19 missile in a storage volume of 1ton. I still have no idea what that means for reloads carried in a quad turret.

A Standard quad Turret is only 1ton but has four launchers. IMHO that means less on mount storage but in the RAW it means you can throw 4 times the weight of missiles for as long as you like without ever running out.

I don't know. Until we get some errata on the volume of missiles there's a major hole in any good missile using ship design.


I'm loving your walk through of the TL12 SDB Major, its well reasoned and logical. I hope this is of some help.

 

[aramis]

For comparison, 1 round of...
5.56mm NATO is $0.75 to $1.00 per ea
.30-06 is around $1.5 per ea
.45-70 is about $1.75 per ea
7.62x39 is about $0.45 per ea.
.50 BMG is about $3.45 per ea in bulk, $3.60 per ea in 100rd+ belts.

In rifle rounds, common use of the round is a major factor. The 7.62x39 is cheaper than the less powerful 5.56 aka .223 Rem. And both of those are cheaper than almost anything else in that class of cartridge.

COnverting those to Cr using the T5 Cr1=15 min labor, and $8 per hour... $2=Cr1

So looking at the CR7 weapon, it's got 4pts of damage, and should be about Cr0.25 to Cr0.5 per round; a 20rd box should be Cr5 to Cr10
The SMG5 should be a 9mm pistol round. 9x19mm runs $50 for a 50rd box... for about Cr 0.25 per round as well... but its only 3 damage. And just about the most popular pistol round in use.

The LMG is bullet-3, and probably uses the same round as the CR7...

GunMaker is too abstract for extracting round costs. Or for knowing which weapons share rounds.

 

[Major B]

Very helpful, thanks very much.

There's a minor difference to consider between your discussion and how I'm using the information. Your question was how many missiles are carried in a turret. My question is how many will fit in a ton of magazine.

Since turret size can vary by range, the first question is harder. My missile turrets for the SDB are 2 tons because they can range S=9. I guess they could hold more missiles.

I'd think you should assume some percentage of the magazine will also have to be devoted to feed mechanism (unless you have a loader).

Well, for now I'm just going to keep the figures I have for the SDB and see what comes out of these discussions. Thanks for the quick reply and for citing the earlier discussion.

 

[taustin]

Sir, just where were you carrying those 100 clips?!? If your character was male I'm sure the females would swoon at your musculature, assuming they could see it under all the clips... :devil:

New characters[1] were issued battle dress by older characters, so weight wasn't an issue. Space wasn't, either, until you ran out of explosives. Yeah, we clanked while we walked, sure, but if you have enough[2] explosives, stealth isn't really an issue, y'know.

No, we really didn't go in for realism. But then, realism wasn't exactly CT's forte, y'know?

[1]Often, 18 year olds with no skills whatsoever. A PC would have sufficient instructor skill and military background to run them through basic training, after which they wouldn't be at any minus to use weaponry. Their main purpose in existing was to get their one melee round in before they died (because we didn't have any kind of initiative system - everybody got their shot). We referred to them as "thuds" - not thugs, but thuds, because that's the sound the body would make when it hit the wall behind them. They were, basically, one shot ordinance, carrying gauss rifles. Or ablative armor, to absorbe damage intended for the "real" PCs.

[2] there's no such thing as enough explosives

 

[Supplement Four]

My SWAG

What does "SWAG" stand for?

That said, my SWAG for ammunition price is Cr1 per damage effect. So something that only does Bullet damage costs Cr1 per bullet. If it did Bullet and Frag, then it's Cr2. No idea if that's reasonable.

In complementary fashion, my SWAG for ammunition mass is 10 grams per die of damage. So if the bullet does a total of 8 dice of damage, that sucker masses 80 grams. No idea if that's reasonable.

So for example, 20 rounds of Bullet-2 Frag-1 costs 20 x Cr2 = 40 credits, and masses 20 x 3 x 10 = 600 grams.

I like the way you're thinking. If not this, then it's definitely a good direction to add to GunMaker.



It's real easy to look at Classic Traveller (or another version of Traveller) and extrapolate some generic weights, magazine size, and cost.

Simply fit your GunMaker creation into one of these categories, adjust if needed (as with the 32 round revolver shown on page 236 of T5), and list it as part of the weapon's description.

Body Pistol = 6 rds/ 50 grams/ 20Cr

Auto Pistol = 15 rds/ 250 grams/ 10Cr

Revolver = 6 rds/ 100 grams/ 5Cr

Carbine = 10 rds/ 125 grams/ 10Cr

Rifle = 20 rds/ 500 grams/ 20Cr

Auto Rifle = 20 rds/ 500 grams/ 20Cr

Shotgun = 10 rds/ 750 grams/ 10Cr

SMG = 30 rds/ 500 grams/ 20Cr



CT Book 4 - Mercenary can be consulted for military grade weapons.

 

[Supplement Four]

...and me, who routinely wrote "100 clips of gauss rifle ammo" on every character sheet.

LOL! I guess your GM didn't care about the load rule (assuming this was a CT game).

Your gauss rifle weighs 3.5 kgs, and each clip is .4 kgs. With the weapon and 100 clips, your character carried 43.5 kgs of weight! That's over 95 lbs! And, that's only your weapon and ammo--no other equipment!

By the CT rules, you'd have to have maximum human STR-15 and be a former member of a military force in order to even move with that much weight on you. And, even then, you'd be carrying a triple load with your STR, DEX, and END reduced by 2 points each.

That's in a 1G grav field. On smaller or less dense planets--or out in space--you could get away with it.

 

[Spartan159]

He mentioned Battledress usage which if I recall would mod Str by x3, or 45 kg for an F Str character. Even so, I would think he looked like he was magnetized just before walking through the magazine area of the armory (Clank! Clank! Clankclankclankityclank!Clank!) :rofl:

 

[BytePro]

What does "SWAG" stand for?

Simple
Wild
A<self censored = donkey>
Guess

 

[Supplement Four]

Simple
Wild
A<self censored = donkey>
Guess

I like it!

Only started seeing it recently, though. At first, I thought it was a T5 thing, like QREBS.

 

[aramis]

I like it!

Only started seeing it recently, though. At first, I thought it was a T5 thing, like QREBS.

It's also, perhaps more commonly,

Scientific
Wild
Arsed
Guess.​

 

[BytePro]

It's also, perhaps more commonly,

Scientific
Wild
Arsed
Guess.​

Yeah - that's what it means to me from my youth, but my contemporaries in business and my ex-military friends go with 'S' standing for 'Simple'. <shrug>

 

[Jazzlvraz]

It's also, perhaps more commonly,

Scientific
Wild
Arsed
Guess.​

Silly
etc
etc
etc

Is the way my Dad taught me in the '70s.

 

[taustin]

LOL! I guess your GM didn't care about the load rule (assuming this was a CT game).

Battle dress.

And yeah, we tended to ignore inconvenient rules that interfered with our graniose plans to conquer the universe.

 

[taustin]

He mentioned Battledress usage which if I recall would mod Str by x3, or 45 kg for an F Str character. Even so, I would think he looked like he was magnetized just before walking through the magazine area of the armory (Clank! Clank! Clankclankclankityclank!Clank!) :rofl:

And that doesn't even begin to compare to how thoroughly we broke the trade & spec rules.