Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Who controls licenses for T5 material?
T5 License
- Thread starter Timerover51
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Marc. And Only Marc.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Thank you.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I am putting together an equipment supply catalogue, and was just confirming as to who to go to for a license.
Secondly, when the LBBs were first written, the Imperial Credit and the US Dollar were viewed as being par or equal in value. What would be the current exchange rate if such a rate existed in the Real World? Is it still at par, or has inflation taken its toll of the Dollar value?
As I will be using Real World examples of lower Tech equipment, and I have Dollar values for them in terms of cost when produced, it would be helpful to know how to convert say, 1919 Dollars or 1945 Dollars or 1953 Dollars into Credits.
In the original T5 core rules but not in 5.09, Cr1 was given as the price of '15 minutes of unskilled labor'. This means minimum wage is Cr4 per hour; in Australia the minimum wage is $17.29 per hour ($13.65 USD). So that means if I have a price in Australian Dollars for some real-world equipment, I can convert that into credits by dividing by the minimum wage and multiplying by 4.
So if you've got minimum wage or typical unskilled wage for the historical time period, that might be one way of deriving a price in credits. Of course, where this breaks down is that in a lower-technology society, 'unskilled' labour is much less productive than 'unskilled' labour in a higher-technology society. Builders' Labourers come to mind: in the 1920's a lot of it was hauling and carrying by hand for the skilled labourers (e.g. hauling bricks for bricklayers, etc.). But since the 1970's it's crane drivers and concrete pourers etc. etc. that all require tickets but amazingly this work is often still referred to as 'unskilled'! Another closer equivalence is fast-food servers. When check-out registers were still mechanical and restaurants used microphones to relay orders to the kitchen it was less productive than computer terminals and display screens that relay orders in real time as they were taken.
Although I can't find this in the T5.09 rules, I found conversions using this general rule produced prices that felt about right.
So if you've got minimum wage or typical unskilled wage for the historical time period, that might be one way of deriving a price in credits. Of course, where this breaks down is that in a lower-technology society, 'unskilled' labour is much less productive than 'unskilled' labour in a higher-technology society. Builders' Labourers come to mind: in the 1920's a lot of it was hauling and carrying by hand for the skilled labourers (e.g. hauling bricks for bricklayers, etc.). But since the 1970's it's crane drivers and concrete pourers etc. etc. that all require tickets but amazingly this work is often still referred to as 'unskilled'! Another closer equivalence is fast-food servers. When check-out registers were still mechanical and restaurants used microphones to relay orders to the kitchen it was less productive than computer terminals and display screens that relay orders in real time as they were taken.
Although I can't find this in the T5.09 rules, I found conversions using this general rule produced prices that felt about right.
Inflation has taken it's toll on about 76 cents of every dollar
.http://www.in2013dollars.com/1977-dollars-in-2017
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
That "15 minutes of unskilled labor" causes major problems if I work backward into the early to mid-1900s. Unskilled labor it the US around 1910 might get between 50 cents and a Dollar per day, with the day being 10 to 12 hours. Farm laborers in the UK were getting about 30 shillings a week circa 1939, or about $6 a week. I am not sure that I would call farm laborers "unskilled" after having put in a month on a dairy farm while in high school.
In 1919, a M1911 .45 Automatic pistol was being both by the US Army for $14.75 per unit, a M1903 Springfield for $19.50 per unit, a 1/2 ton truck for $2500 per unit, and a motorcycle with side car $350 per unit. Figuring a Dollar a day for 10 hours work, that makes it 10 cents an hour, or 2.5 cents for a Credit. That makes the .45 pistol 590 Credits, so not too bad, the rifle 780 Credtis, so so, but the 1/2 ton truck 100,000 Credits, and the motorcycle with side car 14,000 Credits. Those are not good at all. The pay of the UK farm laborer is even worse, as that was pretty much sun-up to sun-down.
Current US federal minimum wage is $7.25 cents an hour. The historic minimum wage as 25 cents an hour in 1938, 40 cents an hour in 1945, and $2.30 an hour in 1977. Fifteen minutes of minimum wage labor in 1977 would equate to 57.5 cents, so a Credit would be less than a Dollar, by the 15 minutes rule. Looks like I will need to work something else up.
In 1919, a M1911 .45 Automatic pistol was being both by the US Army for $14.75 per unit, a M1903 Springfield for $19.50 per unit, a 1/2 ton truck for $2500 per unit, and a motorcycle with side car $350 per unit. Figuring a Dollar a day for 10 hours work, that makes it 10 cents an hour, or 2.5 cents for a Credit. That makes the .45 pistol 590 Credits, so not too bad, the rifle 780 Credtis, so so, but the 1/2 ton truck 100,000 Credits, and the motorcycle with side car 14,000 Credits. Those are not good at all. The pay of the UK farm laborer is even worse, as that was pretty much sun-up to sun-down.
Current US federal minimum wage is $7.25 cents an hour. The historic minimum wage as 25 cents an hour in 1938, 40 cents an hour in 1945, and $2.30 an hour in 1977. Fifteen minutes of minimum wage labor in 1977 would equate to 57.5 cents, so a Credit would be less than a Dollar, by the 15 minutes rule. Looks like I will need to work something else up.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Inflation has taken it's toll on about 76 cents of every dollar
http://www.in2013dollars.com/1977-dollars-in-2017
I use the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator which gives the same thing.
I've never seen gear listed in "TL relative" credits. It's just "Credits", and any conversions were left to either the trade tables or as an exercise for the reader.
You also can't simply "adjust for inflation".
The simple example is the Model T. In 1920, it was $850, which is ~$10K in todays dollars. But, not long after as the assembly lines spooled up, it was down to $250ish dollars.
Now you can not by a new car today for ~$3000. And the car you do buy today (due to tech advances and legislation) is a far cry from the original Tin Lizzy. So, while they're both "cars", they're not really equivalent in any other way.
It doesn't even work for basic commodities. Wheat was much more expensive to produce 100 years ago than it is today. Same with many other resources. So, while the resource price may go up due to inflation, it will also go down due to productivity gains.
And then there's the "we can't compete with overseas labor" types of issues regarding product pricing and manufacturing costs covering all sorts of intangibles.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I may just plug into the introduction a couple of ways of determining costs in Credits, along with allowing the user to decide what the cost should be, based on the cost at the time of original production.
timerover51 - Sorry I lead you up the garden path - I knew it would skew, but didn't realise by how much. Turns out my thought wasn't useful after all! Great economic research.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Onjo, you did not lead me up the garden path, as the comment posted by you was quite useful in getting my thought process expanded. I had not really gone through T5.09 thoroughly on the subject, more just skimmed it.. The "15 minutes of unskilled labor" does make sense, but problem is first defining what is "unskilled labor" and second, in the US there is a very wide range of minimum wage laws to consider. It does not work too badly for the present day, but pushing it backwards does not work very well. Knowing that, I can go with for material dating to the late 1970s and early 1980s the Credit and Dollar are at par and for current prices the Credit is worth 2 US Dollars.
For earlier pricing, from 1913 on I can use the US Bureau of Labor Statistics Inflation Index, or the value in ounces of gold which would be from from 1789 to 1834 $19.75 Dollars per ounce of gold, 1834 to 1934 $20.67 cents per ounce, which rounds to $20.00 per ounce, with $35.00 per ounce from 1934 to 1972. For the period up to roughly 1930, the British pound was about $5.00 to the Pound Sterling, from about 1930 to 1948, $4.00 to the pound, and then $2.80 to the UK Pound. I have to plug the Pound so as to use English material as well. Up through about 1970, Balance of Payment problems between two countries would sometimes be made up by gold transfers at a set rate.
Your contribution gives me another way of working with costs to see what "feels" right, and will be so credited once I get things further along. Again, Thanks Very Much.
Such a critter does not exist. If your supplement provides guidelines, I think that would add value (since then ANY equipment built in Real Life could be accurately priced for Traveller).
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I will be including guidelines, probably a couple of different approaches for the user to decide which way to go.
What if I want a first production standard M113 exactly as it appeared in 1963 from the first batch of 32 that arrived in Vietnam?
I query the web from my handheld and find the specs or the equivalent of Tamiya or Airfix for the 27th century and purchase the rights or a print on demand version.
The garage sized maker in my district spools up and 3D prints and assembles my brand new true to life M113 and a grav drone scoops it up and delivers it straight to my driveway.
How much is that going to cost me, to the nearest credit?
I query the web from my handheld and find the specs or the equivalent of Tamiya or Airfix for the 27th century and purchase the rights or a print on demand version.
The garage sized maker in my district spools up and 3D prints and assembles my brand new true to life M113 and a grav drone scoops it up and delivers it straight to my driveway.
How much is that going to cost me, to the nearest credit?
The problem, IMHO, is that (as some have already pointed) the cost of the things is not only marked by the price at one momento and inflation. production costs, availability (even some low cost products may be expensive as production is limited), demand, taxes and even local views and custoums may influence it.
Some examples:
My first computer (a 386, IIRC) costed me a full month of my salary. Still working at the same place (so I may asume my cost is more or less equivalent), the Tablet I bought to my daughter this year (quite more powerful than a 386) costed less than 5% of my monthly salary. So, valuning it in hours of work does not seem comparable...
In his book Homage to Catalonia, delaing with Spanish Civil War (1936-39), George Orwell commented his amazement that wine (a luxury product in UK) was in the troops daily ration, as in Spain in general, as a wine producer it is, it is not such a luxury product. Again, the price in hours of work is not comparable from UL to Spain in this case.
Last time I checked (some years ago), sending 1 kg to Earth orbit costed about US$ 40000. Of course, in Traveller (and even in 2300AD, without the gravitics) this price is a nonsense, so, again, counting the price in hours of work is nor a good way to value it.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
That is why I will be giving the cost of the item as produced in the country of production and the year it was produced.
For example, the cost of a B-17G Flying Fortress in 1944 was @204,370 as built in the United States, the cost of a C-47 (a militarized DC-3 transport) was $88,574, the cost of a L-4 (a Piper Cub) was $2,620. I do have the pre-war cost of the DC-3 and Piper Cub, however, the cost of the DC-3 was dependent on how the aircraft was equipped, either as a straight passenger aircraft or a sleeper transport with sleeping berths for the passengers, and what engine was used, either a Wright Cyclone or a Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp. In 1919, the construction cost of building was assumed to be $1 per square foot in the U.S. The M1903 Springfield cost the US government $19.50 while the M1917 Enfield cost $26.00. Interestingly enough, the US manufacturers of the .303 Enfield for the British government were charging $47.00 per rifle in 1917. The current cost for a Leatherman Wave multi-purpose tool purchased at Bass Pro Shop a few days ago is $94.99, and it might be cheaper at another store or online. As that is a current price, the price in Credits would be 47.5 Credits.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I assume that you are not being facetious. I also am not sure if you fully understand what you are asking for.
Can your local shop handle 30mm or so of 5083 or 5085 Aluminum plate, along with steel (including nitrided steel cylinder sleeves), rubber, and glass? As I assume you want a fully operational vehicle, you are looking at about 5,000 or so drawing of the various components, and having to produce, more likely by computer-controlled milling, every individual part, down to the smallest screw, bolt, nut, and washer. Once that is done, then the vehicle is going to have to be assembled, most likely by hand, as this is a one-off product, which is not exactly what robots are designed for. World War 2 tanks ran about a dollar a pound in terms of cost. However, the M!!3 primarily used much more expensive aircraft-grade aluminum, rather than homogeneous steel armor. If I remember correctly from the book, The Industry-Ordnance Team, it took about 2000 man hours to assemble a tank, with not much change with the size of the vehicle. That did assume that the engine and power train was delivered as a completed unit. Your vehicle will have to assemble those from scratch. As an educated guess, I would put assembly time on the order of 3,000 man-hours, and you are not paying those assemblers fifty to seventy-five cents an hour either. Then you have the overhead charges for all of the equipment needed. With respect for ships built at the Royal Navy Dockyards, the Royal Navy included 25% for overhead. You need to factor this is as most US armored vehicles have been built at government-built plants operated by companies under contract. I do not think that you are going to like the final cost.
