T5 is awesome

[Adam Dray]

I'm not sure this is a popular opinion, but T5 is f-ing awesome.

I just re-read it, up to the Makers. I remember being wowed by it the first time I read it, a year or two ago, but after a second or third comprehensive read, there is so much amazing in it.

I love the new dice mechanics. They're incredibly expressive and powerful.

I love the new character generation system. It presses all my "sim" buttons in a happy way. I love the knowledge + knowledge + skill conceit. I love the standardization of tasks in the Universal Task Format.

Even the arcane, esoteric stuff like genetics and sophont profiles and senses is really, really cool and integrated with the rest of the rules.

QREBS is so powerful and useful to a ref.

The Personals system is complex (but does offer a "quick personals" solution for refs in a hurry) but really comprehensive. I've never quite seen a social system so well considered, even if potentially a chart-lookup stressor in play.

Combat seems rather well reconceived, complete with easy but effective Aiming rules and a very simple but workable Initiative system. Damage seems very carefully designed.

There are lots of little details that make me really happy, too, like the thought that went into the technology descriptions (gravitics-based comm systems!), or the specific 10 trades, or the initial systems based on the Spinward Marches.

Anyway, I feel like T5 gets little love these days, and there's a ton of great stuff in it.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'll be interested if your enthusiasm is still as high once you run through character generation and actually create a character. Or, start playing and have your character get into a bar brawl or a fight fight with one opponent.

Are you reading 1.0 or 1.9?

Keep us updated.

 

[Adam Dray]

My enthusiasm would be higher if I had a physical copy. I hate trying to flip page to page on a PDF.

I have whatever is out on DriveThru right now. That's 5.09.

Yeah, there are some serious issues with the organization of the rules and some of the writing of the procedures of play. I saw a lot of stuff that annoyed me or that seemed unworkable. But this thread was to give it love where it deserved.

 

[Supplement Four]

More power to you, bro. Bring on the love! :rofl:

 

[OjnoTheRed]

I like T5 for all the reasons you do.

For me it's how ranges corresponding to difficulties are consistent across combat and sense actions. Sophonts are completely scalable in a rules-compatible way.

I would love the errata to be completed and integrated into a new edition. And there are quirks in the mapping rules that could do with a second look; I've discovered a few in building the T5 world mapping web page.

I agree about the Personals as well. To make it less intimidating, I developed a set of laminated cards for the players to choose from when thinking about the best approach. See the link in my signature.

 

[mike wightman]

I too like the makers, the technology chapters and the toolkit it gives me to mine. Synthetics, aliens, world design are all excellent and very useful to me.

I will never use its character generation system. Too many skills, knowledges which are superfluous when you have an Edu characteristic, that sort of thing.

I will never use its task system. Didn't like it for T4, still don't like it.

I will never use its combat system.

As a toolkit for the OTU it is excellent, as a toolkit for different settings it is still incredibly useful because of the sheer volume of stuff in it, To actually play the game it is back to Classic Traveller.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

I will never use its task system. Didn't like it for T4, still don't like it.

I will never use its combat system.

As someone who likes the task system (but I like Mongoose as well) - what is it about the system that makes you dislike it? I'm very curious. I know sometimes it's a preference for roll high over roll low because rolling a high number = better result is kind of ingrained.

The T5 rules are very integrated, so it's difficult to use the makers and other things we both like without using the task system as well, nor the combat system.

Having said that, I like using miniatures and counting squares, but there are many occasions when the abstract system works better.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

As someone who likes the task system (but I like Mongoose as well) - what is it about the system that makes you dislike it?

It's silly complicated and obviously not playable.

I gave up on the system on p100, but when I came to this I could just shake my head and write it off as attempted humour:

Cautious interacts with This Is Hard!
TIH! In some circumstances increases the Difficulty of a Task even as Cautious reduces the Difficulty of Tasks.

 

[Garnfellow]

As a toolkit for the OTU it is excellent, as a toolkit for different settings it is still incredibly useful because of the sheer volume of stuff in it, To actually play the game it is back to Classic Traveller.

Agree totally with this, though I usually run MGT.

 

[Supplement Four]

I would love T5 if it worked. When I first received the book, I had a huge smile on my face. It was the first edition of Traveller since CT that actually felt like it went back to its roots, in a way. It felt like CT, but more.

When I dug into the book, though, I was disappointed. IMO, it's not finished. It's a game that is 75%-90% complete. It needs finishing. Polishing. The bugs worked out. From where I sit, it's got a lot of bugs.

I've always said that the game will require a lot of work on the Ref's part. He'll always be fixing this and tinkering with that.

If a Ref is prepared for that, then Great. T5 away.

But, the reason I buy game materials is for the support--to have others complete the work that would take me a long time to complete myself. Otherwise, we'd all just make up our own games and never buy rulebooks or any supplemental works or adventures. We'd just make it up straight ourselves.

The utility to be had is that someone else has done all that work for you.

And, with T5, I don't see the work as complete.

I wish it was, though. I, oh so much, want to like T5.

I like the way the book looks.

I like the way things are presented.

I like most of the ideas.

Heck, I even like the way the book smells.

I don't like the task system, but if I liked everything else about the game, I'd use it--just as I used the T4 task system when I played that game (and MT's UTP before that).

T5 is just requires too much work on my part as Ref to get up to speed.

So...CT remains my game.

 

[The Pakkrat]

Why Aren't We Playing T5?

If we do like T5.09, why aren't we playing it? We can advocate or grouse about T5 on forums and gaming chat servers; but when will we give T5 a full effort to play it?

I used T5 in solo play when I wrote Down A Peg, using its systems for Encounters, Personals, Starship Operations, personal combat, Psionics, Character Generation, ACS Design, Sophonts (specifically Gvegh Vargr), GunMaker, ArmorMaker, World System Generation, Wafer Technology, Personalities and Brains, starship combat, and much more.

I have used T5 in telling stories of two other characters of mine using Relict Clones (not as OP as one might think), Sophonts (specifically Suedzuk Vargr), and many of the aforementioned chapters. With T5, I was able to make a smooth transition from Mongoose to T5 easily, converting characters and starships with a little cross-referencing.

There is much for a Referee to tinker with in T5. There is a plethora of story generated in a single character in T5. But we don't seem to be playing it with others.

Why?

Edition favoritism is one reason. Age and inflexibility is another. We are too lazy to take on a thick, intimidating book like T5 because we believe in multi-cover book series in Traveller. We want Book X, Book Y and Book Z because we are used to that format. After reading and using T5.09, it has become easier and easier to find the chapters I need. It took practice, even on a .pdf that I bought. We don't want to spend the time converting hardcore CTers, MTers, MgTers, and GU- (those guys) to show them that this intimidating game is not as complex and convoluted as they fear.

Why are we not playing T5? We're lazy.

There are plenty of contributors out there that have put helpful toolkits in their signature lines and have done a good portion of the work for us. A Referee need only research those links, find goodies that work toward the campaign's scope, theme, mood and setting to produce both an EPIC and be able to satisfy that itch to have played a detailed game and not become overwhelmed by a chapter's rules.

I agree that T5 is very compatible with the Official Traveller Universe. Playing in Marc's canon setting is rewarding in that we are fitting our characters in that universe and being able to say, "I was there, in the year XXXX and in Sector Y, subsector A. I was in that theatre of action."

But we're too lazy.

 

[mike wightman]

I am not lazy and I disagree with just about everything you posted.

I have solidly refereed every version of Traveller apart from Hero and T5. I haven't used Hero Traveller because I don't like the Hero system in the slightest, GURPS is bad enough but Hero take point buying everything to a ridiculous level.

I haven't run T5 rules as written for reasons mentioned in my previous post and I can not say anymore because it is against forum rules to criticise T5.

As a toolkit it is great, and it is basically the OTU role playing game, but it is still in need of fixing in places.

By the way I have two copies of the actual book, my kickstarter and one I picked up from my local game store, I have the electronic versions both on disc and as download from drivethru. I will continue to support T5 but I will never run it or play it.

 

[jcrocker]

Why are we not playing T5? We're lazy.

With respect, no. It's because I don't have the time to spend seven years as an apprentice to one of the people that have figured it out.

I backed the kickstarter, commiserated with the postal carrier who got a hernia carrying the parcel to my door, and felt a moment of awe when I opened the book. That quickly evaporated when I tried to generate some characters.

Did I expect a learning curve? Of course. Was I willing to put in that effort? Of course, why else would I part with cash and back the kickstarter?

I took over an hour to make characters that first day, trying to track down cryptic references, puzzle out what was intended - was there anything in there I couldn't do eventually? No. But the fact that it felt like I was using a text that wasn't finished put a serious damper on my willingness to sink more time on it.

There's bits in there that look good, and will get plundered for ideas. But if I have X hours of free time per week, and to use T5 would require 2X or 3X, while I have two or three other versions of Traveller that aren't nearly so opaque and time-consuming, why would I use T5?

Now, if it ever moves past 5.09 and has what I need laid out clearly and concisely? Great, I look forward to revisiting this decision. If the long-awaited Player's Handbook materializes I will check it out eagerly.

I didn't pay for T5 hoping it wouldn't work for me, but as of now it's not laziness, it's lack of time.

 

[Adam Dray]

Yeah, I am not playing it because I don't have a hardcopy, mostly. Also, lots of typos and errata, for sure.

I'd like to give it a try though.

To "why would I use T5?" I'd say, if you can get past the problems, it offers a lot that CT and MGT do not.

 

[robject]

if you can get past the problems, it offers a lot that CT and MGT do not.

I'm trying to mitigate that somewhat.

If we do like T5.09, why aren't we playing it?

I ran T5 since 2013 or so, including weekend adventures and last year at North Texas RPGCon (which is a more old-school-gaming con -- I snuck T5 lite in under the guise of Classic Traveller, and almost no-one noticed, because... well because Traveller).

So here's the thing. Traveller players have been hard to find since 1981 or so, at least around my neck of the woods. So.

Anyway.

I'm with Adam and Ojno on the awesome-wagon, but I'm also with Mike.

Integration of CT's benchmarks and tools with a task system is what I think I've needed and wanted for Traveller ever since I started playing it.

Don McKinney said it better than I. Is something making the task harder? Add a die. Is something making the task easier? Subtract a die. (Now if we can just get rid of all those DMs in combat...)

It helps that I saw it being built and didn't have to learn it from the Gigantic Core Rules (GCR).

At the same time, I still feel that Book 1 has "better" character generation. It's part nostalgia (because T5 poured into a LBB1 form factor feels "wrong" -- I didn't expect that, but it's true), but it's also part Ease Of Use. And yes, Marc's GenCon T5 Chargen rules took us back to Ease Of Use, but of course there needs to be some depth baked in too. Yes I can have it all. I must. I will.

As far as combat goes... I was never any good at any combat system except for Memoir '44. Even LBB1 is too much for me. Too many rules! I think I can grok T5's two combat systems, or at least I can interpolate one in between them. As long as it's based on the same task system that everything else is based on then I probably won't be too lost.

 

[robject]

I'll mention one thing to y'all and Mike in particular that you might find amusing.

For one game at the 'con last year, we used CT Book 1 to generate characters, except that I had them roll a different characteristic or less on 2D for the survival roll each term. In other words, I replaced one line of CTCG with one line of T5CG. No-one cared, and any speed gain was offset by the (normalized?) probability shifts. I.E. the effect was probably subsumed in the statistical error in the system.

For another game at the same 'con, we used the modified LBB1 as above, but also doubled the values of the skill receipts. Then we used roll-under characteristic + skill, with difficulty = dice.

And... I tossed out This Is Hard. Instead, I rewarded good role-playing by making difficult tasks one die easier. Reward always trumps penalty. So an Average task was 3D, but good roleplaying reduces it. Or a Formidable task was 5D, but high skill or good roleplaying or favorable conditions reduced it to 4D.

 

[mike wightman]

This is derived from The Traveller Adventure guide to using the dice, it incorporates the fixation with multipole dice for difficulty but allows you to keep CT range of skills rather than the T5 skill bloat and over emphasis on characteristic.

To determine the target number to aim to equal or exceed for a typical event that requires a dice throw to resolve but you are unsure what the target number should be roll 2D. (target number will usually end up being 5-9)

To determine the target for a more difficult event roll an extra dice for 3D total. (target number will usually be 8-13)

To determine the target number for a possible impossible event roll another for 4D total (target number will usually be 11-18)

Player still rolls 2D and we argue about how much of a DM you get for high relevant characteristic, skill, correct tools etc.

Try it, it works.

 

[David Johansen]

T5 should be fantastic but it's not. We're still waiting, you know? I have run it a bit. I love what it's doing but there's places it just doesn't work. As of 5.09 a moose is still the best anti tank weapon in the game. Rumour has it that the completely revised book is done and just getting another editing pass. We'll see, I really didn't like the 5.09 revised combat.

 

[Supplement Four]

And yes, Marc's GenCon T5 Chargen rules took us back to Ease Of Use, but of course there needs to be some depth baked in too.

Where are these GenCon T5 easy to use Chargen rules? I'd like to see a copy.

I think I can grok T5's two combat systems, or at least I can interpolate one in between them.

I'd like to see the original T5 combat system tweaked and fixed because it's different and interesting.

The second version of combat is more generic. I'm not that enamored with it even though I was one of the several that helped write it.

 

[coliver988]

I think T5 has the potential to be awesome, and parts of it are. And like several others have noted, you can pick and choose pieces (see my sig).

I would like the players handbook - I think that would greatly help acceptance of T5 if it is clearly written and edited. Then the BBB (Big Black Book that gave my postman a hernia as well ) could be used to ferret out the additional details as necessary.

I too joined the Kickstarter with high hopes (even got the jump drive copy because, you know, jump drive). While I do enjoy going through the physical book (not only do I hoard electronic Traveller stuff, but physical stuff I've picked up over 35+ years) it does have pretty heavy editing issues making actually playing T5 more complicated.

And as for the GenCon rules, I know he sent out copies at some point if you either bought something or emailed. I can't recall, but it may be available at your friendly electronic gaming shop (hopefully not breaking rules here). While they are streamlined, they do lack the depth I like when generating characters.