T5 Erratta - Should I have Waited?

[LiminalMask]

I suppose the crtitical question will be... is it playable as is?

I'm in the process of going through T5 to try to teach it to my gaming group. I want to try a T5 campaign soon. And so far my answer to this is...

... it's playable if you're willing to come up with house rules to work out the missing or confusing parts. Some of it is really great. But I still have a lot of questions about weapons, armor, and combat which have no clear answers in the book. Which is troubling to me, considering that's a fundamental part of the game.

 

[aramis]

NO a reprint would NOT require another KickStarter!

Roughly $25,000 was need and roughly $280,000 was collected from the first KickStarter.

T5 could be printed several times over with the first money.

Bluntly put, T5 play testers either were ignored or their results poorly coordinated or, God forbid, inept (Highly Doubtful). Also it's obvious that T5 needed a proofreader and that after a decade or so of development it was a poor decision to rush it to print.

But, Errata is the one canon consistency in Traveller...

You're overlooking that the various rewards also cost. The initial starter of $25K is literally JUST the costs of bringing T5 to press and shipping it to customers, not including stretch goals.

Custom dice, in large bulk (10K units+), run $0.05 to $0.5, depending upon size and material (I've been pricing).

I suspect Marc got an ID Card printer. I don't know just how much those run, but I suspect several thousand.

T-shirts, custom, in bulk, can be as low as $5 each, depending upon numbers, mode of manufacture, and quality of initial shirt.

It adds up quick.

I'm not saying Marc didn't make a profit - but I am saying that the initial 25K didn't cover everything the final $280k requires him contractually to do.

 

[Vladika]

Let me address this item by item?

You're overlooking that the various rewards also cost. The initial starter of $25K is literally JUST the costs of bringing T5 to press and shipping it to customers, not including stretch goals.

OK going to kickstarter/press= $280000/$25000=11.2 That’s the RAW ability to print, and ship, 11.2 times.

Custom dice, in large bulk (10K units+), run $0.05 to $0.5, depending upon size and material (I've been pricing).

10k units x2 (Doubled) x $.5 (Your high figure)= $10,000

I suspect Marc got an ID Card printer. I don't know just how much those run, but I suspect several thousand.

Raise it to, oh say $15,000?

T-shirts, custom, in bulk, can be as low as $5 each, depending upon numbers, mode of manufacture, and quality of initial shirt.

2000 t-shirts (more than the number of recipients) x $5 x4 (4 times your figure) = $40,000

It adds up quick.

I'm not saying Marc didn't make a profit - but I am saying that the initial 25K didn't cover everything the final $280k requires him contractually to do.

Added up that’s $25,000printing and shipping; $10,000 dice; $15,000 card printer; $40,000 t-shirts= $90,000
$280,000-$90,000=$190,000 Very nice profit.

I’m glad he got it. He deserves to make a profit. We, however, deserve a good product for $100 a book…

So, let’s be real:
1) He asked for $25,000 to go to print
2) He expected to make his profit from the sales of said book (BTW, he STILL WILL)
3) The $190,000 is over and above his expected profit from anticipated sales.

How about getting the Errata corrected and spending another $25k out of that $190K to see to it that a good copy is in the hands of those who paid for it, as well as future buyers? Or, in the case of prepaid buyers, wasn’t THAT something he had “contractually to do”?

As an aside; IF my college text books, and professional journals, were as full of errata, wrong mathematical equations, and poorly proofread, would you trust a bridge I designed? A building? A dam? I think not. You would have, and should have, expected better.

So, does Marc keep on going like he has since 1979, or do we expect, and get, better? T6?

Yes aramis, I'm unhappy, and outspoken, about this.

Yes, I could be banned from the board I suppose.

Yes, I'll probably get flamed (roasted more like it).

BUT in the end, what I've said is TRUE.

 

[whartung]

NO a reprint would NOT require another KickStarter!

Roughly $25,000 was needed and roughly $280,000 was collected from the first KickStarter.

T5 could be printed several times over with the first money.

However, it does require customers willing to pony up the cash monies for the new book, again if you ordered the original.

There was obviously some pent up demand for the book, the Kickstarter absorbed some 1500 customers for the hardcover. I don't know how big this market is, but the KS probably took a pretty large chunk of it.

 

[Vladika]

However, it does require customers willing to pony up the cash monies for the new book, again if you ordered the original.

It shouldn't

There was obviously some pent up demand for the book, the Kickstarter absorbed some 1500 customers for the hardcover. I don't know how big this market is, but the KS probably took a pretty large chunk of it.

1500 customers x $100 = $150,000

Again the kickstarter was to provide the $25,000 necessary to PRINT AND SHIP.

 

[aramis]

You're taking an excessively hostile tone, Vladika

The only thing you're entitled to is what was promised in your pledge level.

You're also dragging the thread way off topic.

Drop it, now.

 

[Vladika]

You're taking an excessively hostile tone, Vladika

The only thing you're entitled to is what was promised in your pledge level.

You're also dragging the thread way off topic.

Drop it, now.

Dropped

 

[Chivalrybean]

Since there is an email for every backer, providing an updated PDF should be fairly trivial.

Or if I had a PDF editing program, I could update my own copy, likely.

 

[Shonner]

Since there is an email for every backer, providing an updated PDF should be fairly trivial.

Or if I had a PDF editing program, I could update my own copy, likely.

The errata document is huge. You would not want to edit the PDF yourself. Some involving layout changes.

 

[Chivalrybean]

The errata document is huge. You would not want to edit the PDF yourself. Some involving layout changes.

Want to yes (if one not made available) ... should or could, perhaps not {:0p

 

[pendragonman]

The errata document is huge. You would not want to edit the PDF yourself. Some involving layout changes.

Actually, the errata document right now is small. The original document, that is huge.

 

[Shonner]

Want to yes (if one not made available) ... should or could, perhaps not {:0p

I was thinking of Yoda's voice while reading that line for some reason. Not quite how he talks though.

 

[HG_B]

I'm in the process of going through T5 to try to teach it to my gaming group. I want to try a T5 campaign soon. And so far my answer to this is...

... it's playable if you're willing to come up with house rules to work out the missing or confusing parts. Some of it is really great. But I still have a lot of questions about weapons, armor, and combat which have no clear answers in the book. Which is troubling to me, considering that's a fundamental part of the game.

Is it as bad as the MT Ref Guide from back in the day?

 

[aramis]

Is it as bad as the MT Ref Guide from back in the day?

I found no need for house rules for the MT Ref's Manual material, other than tasks (Att/3 instead of att/5, up all target numbers by 1). Errata, however... Lots of typos in craft design...

T5, I'm a bad person to ask. I find it just overtaken with its own complexity; more so than TNE, which was more so than MT. Unlike TNE, however, it doesn't have the gritty realism. I really dropped out when I found out Marc was dead-set on the T4 task system. I couldn't make sense of the ship gen rules in the draft last year. I dislike, but understand clearly, the Jump chapter...

 

[whartung]

The errata document is huge. You would not want to edit the PDF yourself. Some involving layout changes.

But it's straightforward to go through and annotate the PDF. Some PDF readers will let you add little "stickies" to places where errata needs to be in the mater PDF without altering it.

 

[DonM]

Ok. What are people looking at that the T5 errata is so big? The errata I posted was... 1... 2... 3... and the amount of space on page four is the intro and the copyright statement. So far, that's not bad for 656 pages...

Now, The Traveller Book currently has 3 pages of errata for 159 pages... So at 12 pages of errata, T5 would not be considered large...

In comparison, the core 3 MegaTraveller books have 47 pages of errata for (102 + 103 + 97 = 302 pages)... so to be worse than MT, T5 would need about 100 pages of errata.

 

[Chivalrybean]

But it's straightforward to go through and annotate the PDF. Some PDF readers will let you add little "stickies" to places where errata needs to be in the mater PDF without altering it.

That would work.

Managed to make 2 characters with my group that seemed to go fine.

 

[Chivalrybean]

I wonder if annotations can be saved, then just added to an exact copy of the same file?

 

[Bloo]

I wonder if annotations can be saved, then just added to an exact copy of the same file?

The free version of Foxit Reader does this with its Note function. (The Pro version does have Comments).

Conveniently, the free version also allows you to insert bookmarks, but other PDF readers won't see them.

Update: I just updated to the latest version and the free version has even more stuff you can do. Callouts, mark up with "Pencil" (and erace Pencil marks) including adding shapes and the like, stamping texts with pre-formated or custom stamps (as if you had a rubber stamp), the ability to write text (in blue), etc.

This is actually useful. DonM, you might take a look at it. Might expedite revisions and errata.

 

[aramis]

Since there is an email for every backer, providing an updated PDF should be fairly trivial.

Or if I had a PDF editing program, I could update my own copy, likely.

I'm personally aware of a dozen+ people who had email changes between the KS and present. I've told each one to let Marc know. Many people use work emails; many people use emails through their ISP (dialup/cable/DSL provider, and yes, there ARE people still using 56.6kbps dialup); in either case, a change in employment can result in changes in either...