T5 Errata Discussion Thread

[Original_Carl]

Unarmed and slug thrower I can see, but Battle Dress, Beams, Blades, Exotics, and Sprays seems like way too much to me. I'm willing to accept the higher possibility of completely incompetent fighters rather than give every character Battle Dress-0.

Maybe I just don't fully comprehend the impact of Skill-0, but I think it implies some level of familiarity.

 

[Hemdian]

Good point.

Hmm... Maybe the fix is to drop the idea that having level zero in a 'knowledgable' skill implies level zero in all its related knowledges. Then having Turrets-0 makes sense in that you have Gunnery-0 (Turrets-0) but not Bays, Spines, or Screens. So for the other default skills that are 'knowledgable' you either have to pick a level zero knowledge or the list needs to be expanded (ie. replace Fighting-0 with Unarmed-0 and Slug Thrower-0 ... which would imply Fighting-0 without giving Battledress et al).

Another house rule candidate.

 

[mvdwege]

Rob and I were hammering on this as well, and discussing it with Marc. The unofficial frequency we're using at the moment is once per minute, or personal combat round. Waiting on a ruling from the boss...

I think once per minute can be considered fairly official. See the usage example for QREBS on page 192, where a failing respirator is described, it says explicitly:

Atm-3 inflicts Suff-2 every minute.

 

[Licheking]

Unarmed and slug thrower I can see, but Battle Dress, Beams, Blades, Exotics, and Sprays seems like way too much to me. I'm willing to accept the higher possibility of completely incompetent fighters rather than give every character Battle Dress-0.

Maybe I just don't fully comprehend the impact of Skill-0, but I think it implies some level of familiarity.

Most of the weapons mentioned are point and shoot, this is covered by everyone in the world knowing what a gun looks like, which end is the dangerous one and where the trigger is. Beams should be very easy for people to use because they don't have to worry about recoil. Sprays should be even easier since most people know how to water their gardens or spray pesticides on them. Exotics maybe harder to explain, depends what they are but as long as they look like a regular gun they should be useable by anyone.

As for Battledress anyone can where armour, and knows that the helmet goes on the head, gloves on the hands and boots on the feet therefore they are familiar with Battledress, the fact that they don't know how the HUD works or how to fire a FGMP with it is represented by the level 0 skill. A knight was trained in Plate Armour Level-1+, whereas the peasant who just robbed the knights corpse, knows how to put it on but has no-where near the knowledge of how to move in it as well as the knight (Level-0).

Level 0 to me, means that if someone was to pick up a random weapon, or suit of armour they would know what it is and roughly how to use it, but not necessarily with any skill, hence 0.

 

[Original_Carl]

Level 0 to me, means that if someone was to pick up a random weapon, or suit of armour they would know what it is and roughly how to use it, but not necessarily with any skill, hence 0.

Ok, I'm with you, but what's the impact? Would you give me a task example using Skill-0 and Skill-1? I'm not seeing any difference between Skill-0 and ... I don't even know what to call it. Skill-null?

 

[Hemdian]

I'm not seeing any difference between Skill-0 and ... I don't even know what to call it. Skill-null?

T5 core book p132:

Default Skills. Generally, a task cannot be attempted if the character does not have the requisite skill. But all characters have Level-0 of a set of basic skills (the Default Skills).

So, Skill-0 you can perform the task but not very well, Skill-null you cannot perform the task. (Unless you have Jack of all Trades, which can substitute. But thats a whole other discussion.)

Applying that to driving a contemporary car. With Drive-null you could probably still get in the car and guess what the steering wheel is for but be baffled by everything else. But Drive-0 implies some sort of familiarisation; you'd be able to start the engine, put the car in gear, and know which peddle did what. You'd even be able to work the lights and the indicators ... just not win any races.

Battledress-0 implies you know how to correctly attach all the parts, power up the suit, be able to maneuver it, and work the various subsystems (not very well but you could). Does that make sense as a default skill given to all characters regardless of background?

 

[Licheking]

Ok, I'm with you, but what's the impact? Would you give me a task example using Skill-0 and Skill-1? I'm not seeing any difference between Skill-0 and ... I don't even know what to call it. Skill-null?

Ok 3 combatants 1st combatant has Fighter-1, 2nd has Fighter-0 and the 3rd for whatever reason has no Fighter at all. They each pick up a gun and try to shoot someone 3m away (range Band 1), they all have Dex 7.

1st combatant will be rolling 1D versus his Dex of 7 so will hit automatically.
2nd combatant will be rolling 2D versus his Dex of 7 so 50% chance,
3rd combatant cannot try to shoot because he doesn't know what hes doing, and may very likely shoot himself because he doesn't know whats the business end of the weapon.

 

[DonM]

Guys... Marc put BD in the Fighter skill.

In my house rules, I resolved my issue with this by moving Fighter out of the defaults, and putting the knowledges I wanted from it into the defaults (Beams, Blades and Slug Throwers).

But it's not an official errata item at this time.

 

[Hemdian]

But that doesn't address the issue. If you have a Skill's Knowledge then you have that Skill at least at level zero. And if you have a knowledgable Skill at level zero then you effectively have all that Skill's Knowledges at level zero too. In other words, if (for example) you have Blades-0 or more then you get Battledress-0 thrown in into the bargain.

 

[fridge]

But that doesn't address the issue. If you have a Skill's Knowledge then you have that Skill at least at level zero. And if you have a knowledgable Skill at level zero then you effectively have all that Skill's Knowledges at level zero too. In other words, if (for example) you have Blades-0 or more then you get Battledress-0 thrown in into the bargain.

Where in the BBB does it say that if you have Knowledge-0 you have Skill-0? I can't find anywhere in the book where it says this.

In fact, I can't find anywhere in the book where it describes the task roll effect of knowledge-0 at all.

I think this is a possible errata in its own right if Knowledge-0s are to be available.

 

[mvdwege]

Where in the BBB does it say that if you have Knowledge-0 you have Skill-0? I can't find anywhere in the book where it says this.

In the Skills chapter, on the acquisition of skills, it mentions that the first two Skills are gained at Skill-0, Knowledge-1:

The first two times a character receives one of these Skills (typically in Character Generation), he instead re- ceives one of the Skill’s contained Knowledges. When (or If) the character acquires the skill the third time, he receives the Skill at level-1. Until then, he has the Knowledges but only Skill-0.

(p.144)

However, I think Hemdian overlooks something. Acquisition of Knowledge does not confer the underlying skill. So rolling ANM School during Character Generation means you get Knowledge-2 without the corresponding Skill-0:

(p.144 again)

If a character receives a Knowledge directly (perhaps in an ANM School) he increases that Knowledge, but not the corresponding Skill.

 

[fridge]

In the Skills chapter, on the acquisition of skills, it mentions that the first two Skills are gained at Skill-0, Knowledge-1:


(p.144)

However, I think Hemdian overlooks something. Acquisition of Knowledge does not confer the underlying skill. So rolling ANM School during Character Generation means you get Knowledge-2 without the corresponding Skill-0:

(p.144 again)

Re first point :But we are talking knowledge-0 not k-1

Re second point: good catch - not obvious but I think the skill stays at null except you get mods for your knowledge, however k-0 would have no effect with this interpretation. I think the intention is you get s-0 k-0 only for that knowledge, all others remain null

 

[Hemdian]

I'd like to interpret it that way but I've read and re-read that section and it keeps coming up the same:

The first two times a character receives one of these Skills (typically in Character Generation), he instead receives one of the Skill’s contained Knowledges.

Followed by ...

Until then, he has the Knowledges but only Skill-0.

So you haven't aquired the skill, just knowledges. Yet you still have Skill-0.

And the next bit says ...

If a character receives a Knowledge directly (perhaps in an ANM School) he increases that Knowledge, but not (increases) the corresponding Skill.

Then it says ...

A character who receives a Skill may always choose one of its contained Knowedges instead. However, since a Skill includes ability in all of its contained Knowledges, this choice is less than optimal.

Which all seems pretty clear.

 

[Frewfrux]

There are no starship prices.

I found this out by A) looking at the list of starships in the back of the book and B) searching the entire PDF rules for instances of "MCr"

I assume this is an error (or oversight) as I'm sure that new players are not expected to have to re-create every ship in the Green List just to be able to know how valuable their various ship shares are. (Or are ship shares worthless unless you can redeem them for a ship?)

 

[Frewfrux]

There is a lot of flipping back and forth between pages 100, the schooling info, and 71/72, how to use the schooling info page. Their separation seems exaggerated.

The description of how to create characters starts with eduction, which makes sense as this is often what characters do first. The character creation checklist also has education placed before careers.

After the description of how to create a character, however, the order then becomes checklist, homeworld creation, careers, noble lands, aging, the Imperial Calendar, birthdates, and THEN education. Why is this separated so far from careers and not placed before careers?

I wasn't initially going to post this because it seems like a formatting issue, not an 'errata,' but I've been told that formatting should be posted here too. (If that's not right, please let me know via PM)

 

[Frewfrux]

This table, adjusted as stated in the errata, is still a little unclear.

EDUCATION	College*	University	University
Pre-requisite	Edu= 5+ or 7+*	Bachelor	Masters
To Apply	Int or Edu	Int or Edu	Int or Edu
Pass/Fail	4x Int or Edu	2x Int or Edu	2x Int or Edu
Etc......

The 4x Int or Edu can easily be thought of as "four times your Int or Edu." Placing the "4x" or "2x" after the characteristics clears this up without adding any width to the table.

EDUCATION	College*	University	University
Pre-requisite	Edu= 5+ or 7+*	Bachelor	Masters
To Apply	Int or Edu	Int or Edu	Int or Edu
Pass/Fail	Int or Edu 4x	Int or Edu 2x	Int or Edu 2x
Etc......

This table cannot be understood as multiplying the characteristic by anything. It is as unambiguous as it can be without adding more detail. (like a "**" with a note on the bottom...not a bad idea, but it looks like space is at a premium here.)

 

[Frewfrux]

I'd like to interpret it that way but I've read and re-read that section and it keeps coming up the same:

...

Which all seems pretty clear.

Uh, does this...

A character who receives a Skill may always choose one of its contained Knowedges instead. However, since a Skill includes ability in all of its contained Knowledges, this choice is less than optimal.

...mean that the Fighter-0 (Battle Dress-0) is a default skill that every character starts with?

I agree about unarmed, spray, slug throwers, and blades, but Battle Dress I don't think should be included in that, maybe not even Beam or Exotic (I'm not sure what exotic means).

What skill does gun repair fall under? I would assume Slug Thrower. By extension, does this also means then that any character can attempt to repair a laser rifle?

 

[Frewfrux]

Also, Turrets is a default skill. However, Turrets is not a skill skill, but a knowledge skill. As the knowledge skill turrets is gained DIRECTLY (via being a default skill) and not via the controlling skill of Gunner, this means that Gunner-0 IS NOT GAINED, and that every character in charted space cannot operate a turret, but does know about how they theoretically work, correct? Or was there a mistake here?

 

[Hemdian]

Well that's the debate, and my concern:

First, it appears that if you have a skill at level zero or greater then you have all its contained knowledges at atleast level zero. Thus if you have Fighter-0 then you also have Battledress-0 ... something many us balk at.

A character who receives a Skill may always choose one of its contained Knowedges instead. However, since a Skill includes ability in all of its contained Knowledges, this choice is less than optimal.

Second (and on this point there is disagreement on how to interpret the text) if you gain a Knowledge, do you gain the underlying skill? The text says

If a character receives a Knowledge directly (perhaps in an ANM School) he increases that Knowledge, but not the corresponding Skill.

Which mvdwege takes as meaning you can have the Knowledge without having the skill. Thus the default Turrets-0 would not confer Gunner-0.

However, the text also says

The first two times a character receives one of these Skills (typically in Character Generation), he instead receives one of the Skill’s contained Knowledges.

Followed by ...

Until then, he has the Knowledges but only Skill-0.

So you haven't acquired the skill, just knowledges. Yet you still have Skill-0.

Which would seem contradictory but actually I think that's just because the first quote is ambiguous. It's NOT contradictory if ...

If a character receives a Knowledge directly (perhaps in an ANM School) he increases that Knowledge, but not (increase) the corresponding Skill.

So Turrets-0 would confer Gunner-0, which (again) many us balk at.

Additionally, if Gunner-0 implies Turret-0 and Turret-0 confers Gunner-0 then the text should say Gunner-0 ... if that is what was intended. (Or maybe it was supposed to be Turret-1?)

I'm leaning towards dropping Turret from the default list of skills.

 

[fridge]

Well that's the debate, and my concern:

First, it appears that if you have a skill at level zero or greater then you have all its contained knowledges at atleast level zero. Thus if you have Fighter-0 then you also have Battledress-0 ... something many us balk at.




Second (and on this point there is disagreement on how to interpret the text) if you gain a Knowledge, do you gain the underlying skill? The text says


Which mvdwege takes as meaning you can have the Knowledge without having the skill. Thus the default Turrets-0 would not confer Gunner-0.

However, the text also says


Followed by ...


So you haven't acquired the skill, just knowledges. Yet you still have Skill-0.

Which would seem contradictory but actually I think that's just because the first quote is ambiguous. It's NOT contradictory if ...


So Turrets-0 would confer Gunner-0, which (again) many us balk at.

Additionally, if Gunner-0 implies Turret-0 and Turret-0 confers Gunner-0 then the text should say Gunner-0 ... if that is what was intended. (Or maybe it was supposed to be Turret-1?)

I'm leaning towards dropping Turret from the default list of skills.

Excellent summary...put it in the errata thread.