T5 Damage Application???

[Licheking]

In MT an assault battalion would all be equipped with BD-F and PGMP-E or F which is why i picked those out of the GunMaker and ArmorMaker 1001.

Assuming BD allows the use of Portable and Crewed weapons as individual weapons then the vehicle weapons listed in 1001 are still only 8 to 9 dice and some 10 i seem to recall.

 

[Hemdian]

As far as I know shotguns are for hunting fowl spreading the shot to make it easier hitting birds and other small animals. To me it seems reasonable that several smaller wounds are messier (more damaging) to a living being than one larger wound. But I cannot understand why several smaller projectiles as a whole should be more able to penetrate armor than a specialized fighting weapon firing one larger projectile.

In RL there are a variety of different shotgun ammo types. A slug, buckshot, birdshot, ... there's even a beanbag projectile sometimes used by law enforcement. A slug has the best penetration but no spread, buckshot has less penetration but some spread, birdshot has less penetration still but even more spread. So the HS-4 having bullet-3 sounds like slug ammo.

 

[Licheking]

Thats my take on it as well, but then i have modified shotgun rule slightly to take into account buckshot.

 

[Epee]

In RL there are a variety of different shotgun ammo types. A slug, buckshot, birdshot, ... there's even a beanbag projectile sometimes used by law enforcement. A slug has the best penetration but no spread, buckshot has less penetration but some spread, birdshot has less penetration still but even more spread. So the HS-4 having bullet-3 sounds like slug ammo.

One slight correction; the spread of birdshot and buckshot will be the same (all other variables being equal; and there are a ton of variables when talking about shotshells). The difference lies in the density of shot throughout the spread area; many little shot leave fewer gaps between them than a few larger shot. Since birdshot is small it has little mass and therefore little penetration yet produces (at a given distance) smaller gaps and so is suited to small, easily killed, game. Buckshot, on the otherhand, penetrates deeper and produces larger wounds but also has larger spaces between pellets. The larger gaps matter little against bigger game.

 

[Supplement Four]

AR-7 Assault Rifle - 7
R=4 Cr750 3.20kg QREBS=5 0 0 0 0 Effects=Bullet-2 Blast-1 Bang-2
Recoil=Yes Loud=Loud Flash=No Heat=No Vacc=Ok UW=No CQ=-5

versus

HS-4 Hunting Shotgun - 4
R=3 Cr360 3.60kg QREBS=5 0 0 0 0 Effects=Bullet-3
Recoil=Yes Loud=Loud Flash=No Heat=No Vacc=Ok UW=No CQ=-3

You've hit on something here. A shotgun's penetration should be less than the AR-7. Not only is the assult rifle 3 TL's higher, but shotguns are known to be low penetrating weapons.

Another problem with the T5 rules, I'm guessing.

 

[pendragonman]

You've hit on something here. A shotgun's penetration should be less than the AR-7. Not only is the assult rifle 3 TL's higher, but shotguns are known to be low penetrating weapons.

Another problem with the T5 rules, I'm guessing.

Actually, have you seen what a shotgun slug round will penetrate? Way more than an assault rifle. It has already been pointed out that this must be a slug round for the shotty.

 

[Vladika]

One slight correction; the spread of birdshot and buckshot will be the same (all other variables being equal; and there are a ton of variables when talking about shotshells). The difference lies in the density of shot throughout the spread area; many little shot leave fewer gaps between them than a few larger shot. Since birdshot is small it has little mass and therefore little penetration yet produces (at a given distance) smaller gaps and so is suited to small, easily killed, game. Buckshot, on the otherhand, penetrates deeper and produces larger wounds but also has larger spaces between pellets. The larger gaps matter little against bigger game.

Some other interesting things about bird shot. For home defense it is PREFERRED. Reason being at short range the mass is still compact enough to remove a targets life signs from their corporal body. AND if penetration of a wall (typical Sheetrock construction) occurs due to a miss, the remaining mass-velocity is low enough not to kill or badly injure the kids sleeping in the next room. DON'T try it though just to see if it works!

Buckshot (even Turkey shot), or a slug, is going to have enough remaining energy to kill.

 

[Supplement Four]

Actually, have you seen what a shotgun slug round will penetrate? Way more than an assault rifle. It has already been pointed out that this must be a slug round for the shotty.

Why must it be a slug round? Because the damage is so high? (Not because T5 Gunmaker threw out some wonky number...) How does GunMaker make shotguns with shot, then? (Since T5 does not take into account ammot types.) It also seems odd to me that GunMaker would turn out a shotgun firing slugs when shotguns are typically used with shot. Shotgun slugs are for special types of targets (like elephants).

I'm not a gun enthusiast, but just from reading stories and playing games, shotguns (with shot) are known to be the weapon of choice for short range engagements against non-armored foes. Heck, that's why they used 'em in Outland!

But, if you want to get away from the movie and novel and rpg references, check out THIS LINK. This is a real world test of pentration, shotgun vs rifle.

 

[pendragonman]

Why must it be a slug round? Because the damage is so high? (Not because T5 Gunmaker threw out some wonky number...) How does GunMaker make shotguns with shot, then? (Since T5 does not take into account ammot types.) It also seems odd to me that GunMaker would turn out a shotgun firing slugs when shotguns are typically used with shot. Shotgun slugs are for special types of targets (like elephants).

I'm not a gun enthusiast, but just from reading stories and playing games, shotguns (with shot) are known to be the weapon of choice for short range engagements against non-armored foes. Heck, that's why they used 'em in Outland!

But, if you want to get away from the movie and novel and rpg references, check out THIS LINK. This is a real world test of pentration, shotgun vs rifle.

First, I am not the one who pointed out this it must be a slug round. Please review the previous posts in this thread for details as to who did.

Second, I followed your link and looked thru it. It did discuss how a shotgun would react in a test that even they called flawed as the drywall ends up stacking in resistance. On the other hand it never covered the rifle experience and I did not see a referral link. Did I miss it?

Third, and this has been pointed out before S4, is there a way for you to discuss the facets of T5 without your-to be polite-dislike of T5 from coming thru so vehemently? I suppose I am doing this: :CoW: by asking...

 

[Vladika]

First, I am not the one who pointed out this it must be a slug round. Please review the previous posts in this thread for details as to who did.

Second, I followed your link and looked thru it. It did discuss how a shotgun would react in a test that even they called flawed as the drywall ends up stacking in resistance. On the other hand it never covered the rifle experience and I did not see a referral link. Did I miss it?

Third, and this has been pointed out before S4, is there a way for you to discuss the facets of T5 without your-to be polite-dislike of T5 from coming thru so vehemently? I suppose I am doing this: :CoW: by asking...

As an engineer I designed the rifle Range for a couple of Coast Guard facilities. A .233 round is effectively stopped by a FULL 4 inches of solid oak boards backed by a half inch steel plate. This data was supplied Coast Guard from manuals by the US Navy, US Army, and US Coast Guard. This was for direct, head on hits.

For a .22 practice range a sloping (45 degree angle) backstop deflected rounds into a 8 inch deep sand box.

Reference both Portsmouth VA and Yorktown VA rifle ranges.

 

[Supplement Four]

Second, I followed your link and looked thru it. It did discuss how a shotgun would react in a test that even they called flawed as the drywall ends up stacking in resistance. On the other hand it never covered the rifle experience and I did not see a referral link. Did I miss it?

Yes, the rifle is last. It goes through all 12 boards easily. Blows right through them. No telling how many more it would have penetrated. Where the first shotgun test made it almost through 9 boards.

Third, and this has been pointed out before S4, is there a way for you to discuss the facets of T5 without your-to be polite-dislike of T5 from coming thru so vehemently? I suppose I am doing this: :CoW: by asking...

From my POV, I don't have a vehement attitude. I'm just discussing the thing.

What you probably hear is my continued disappointment with the game. It seems like every time I delve deeper into the game (as with this thread), new problems pop up, proving to me the game hasn't been well playtested.

I mean, the bugs are all over the place--so much so that it's hard for me to "trust" any aspect of T5 as a solid rule without spending time testing the thing myself.

To give you an example of what I'm talking about, look at my comments about Wound Severity. A scratch in CT (no stat at zero) is a 6D Hopless Medical throw to heal in this game.

Now, I'm not 100% about that, because it's not clear from the rules how damage is applied and how the Medic rules are used.

But, it's suspect, and it needs to be tested (added to the long list) like a million other aspects of the game.

Yeah, that bothers me a bit.

Why do we buy rulebooks for games? It's so we don't have to spend all the time required to figure it all out from scratch ourselves. Otherwise, we'd just make up our own rules for our games.

T5 was an expensive book. So, when I find so many things wrong with it, it does bother me.

That's probably what you see in my "tone".

 

[Licheking]

And yet when i read it i found a system that works and makes a lot of sense not only to me but to my players as well. My combat system may not be what Marc intended but it does use the rules and tables from the game and integrates them well and makes logical sense of them. I have found T5 to be the best version of Traveller so far, although i do still love the MT design system for vehicles/starships, and all i had to do was follow the spirit of the rules as opposed to the letter of them.

 

[Epee]

Terminal ballistics is a notoriously unperdictable subject; especially so when multiple projectiles are thrown in. We can, with amazing accuracy, predict the clear air flight path, velocity and energy of a projectile; but as soon as it contacts another solid anything other than generalities becomes some degree of "maybe".

I will have to disagree on the birdshot for defense recommendation. A mass of tiny projectiles behave like a mass of tiny projectiles no matter how closely spaced they are; they do, in fact, expend a great deal of their energy bouncing off of on another once contact with a surface begins. However, (remember, I said some degree of "maybe" ) if the range is so close that they remain in the shotcup of the wad (a sabot for carrying shot) they may be held together enough to recieve a slight increase in penetration. While this will mean that near 100% of the shots' energy will be expended on the target, it will be expended among many, many impacts and result in a very wide but not very deep (compared to the energy expended) wound. This wound may indeed be ghastly and more than enough to halt an attack. However, if striking areas of dense muscle and bone, or thick clothing the wound my be painful but not debilitating. In order to debilitate bones must be broken or organs damaged and this requires penetration. As the size of the creature increases exponentually more penetration is required; this is why large African game requires such massive rifles; a long bullet retains the energy and structure in order to penetrate deeply while the large diameter does as much damage as possilbe as it passes through.

In order to produce a truly realist simulation you must be able to seperate penetration from damage yet keep them interelated.


Sorry to go on like that, I realize that this doesn't specifically address T5 at all. I hope I'm not coming across too pontifically...

 

[thalassogen]

Keep going on I am listening (reading) with interest (I do not have any experience with weapons as those are nearly banned in Germany - only military, police and licensed hunters/sportsmen may have them). I will keep on reading if you like to expand on the subject in a dedicated thread.

 

[Epee]

Thanks for the kind words. As a gun-nut (they are a fascination not a fetish) and a gamer I used to look for a game system that realistically portrayed gunfights on a man-to-man level. It can be done but making it playable and not bogging down in seemingly endless die rolls and rule/chart references or becoming morbid is the trick.

A few factors that are tricky to reproduce:
Penetration does not equal damage nor does damage equal penetration but the two are related, i.e. shoot a man with buckshot at 20m and he dies, shoot a rhino with buckshot at 20m and he is annoyed. Shoot a rhino or a man with a large-bore magnum hunting rifle and they both have 2cm holes through them and may or may not die.

Shotguns are no easier to hit with than rifles at close range but, as the spread pattern opens up (generally around 2cm per meter or so) it becomes easier and easier to include the target within the spread. However, the shot rapidly looses energy as range increases, the spread pattern develops ever-widening gaps, and more and more of the shot will be off target. Therefore shotguns should start with the same base ability to hit which increases as the range increases but the damage inflected should is inversely proportional to the ability to hit.

Automatic weapons (machineguns, assault rifles, submachineguns, etc.), especially hand-held models, should have an increased chance of hitting and scoring multiple hits at close range. Due to recoil this chance should decrease proportional to the weapon's recoil rather rapidly with range and number of shots fired but should never decrease below that of a single shot being fired. Weapons with low rates of fire should be allow gravity to help recover the line of fire between shots while weapons with higher rates of fire should put more shots along the line of fire before recoil takes full effect in moving the line of fire. Weapon skill would aid this at close range but at some point no amount of skill and strength will keep all of the shots on line. At long range rested automatic weapons should have a random chance of hitting anything within a given area.

Muskets and shotguns firing balls or slugs will also reach a point where the travel of their slug will be so random that no amount of weapon skill will increase the chances of hitting and the skill effect should decrease with range; i.e. you can be a great musket shot at 50m and a good musket shot at 100m but no one is even a fair musket shot at 200m (~5% chance of a hit on a human). They will however remain quite effective damage-wise at these ranges.

I really like the Classic Traveller rules and the Traveller-based game "Snapshot!" as a playable game. I think T5 is probably an improvement though I've yet to completely wrap my head around it and would like to see a more detailed "tactical" version.

 

[Supplement Four]

And yet when i read it i found a system that works and makes a lot of sense not only to me but to my players as well.

If it made so much sense to you, then why all the House Rules? You've pretty much re-written the T5 Combat system.

I have no doubt that you like the game, but, c'mon, you're not exactly playing T5 RAW.

 

[Licheking]

Not really, all i have done is interpreted the same rules as you differently. The skill rolls still work the same way, the ranges i have interpreted as the absolutes instead of the middle ground for quickness and ease of reference. I have interpreted the effects of the weapons to be for penetration, and have used the severity and injuries section for the wounds which admittedly is a change but only in that I'm ignoring the sentence about only using it after combat for the medical rolls. I have changed the round to 6 seconds instead of 1 minute, but this is only a somantic change since the round is described as a few seconds to several minutes anyway.

Yes i have given the various effects some rules to make them more distinguishable from each other and i feel that is within the spirit of the rules since there is obviously an intent to do something with them like that. And i changed the armour degradation rules to make the combat flow smother and make everyone vulnerable albeit to vary degrees and depending on the types of armour worn, but also adding a more tactical edge to combat.

You still need the book to do it my way i have just unified the rules into a cohesive whole and like i said before tried to keep to the Spirit of the rules, and to the spirit of previous editions especially MT.

 

[Supplement Four]

Not really...

Yes, really. You've made quite a few changes, from what you've posted.

The skill rolls still work the same way, the ranges i have interpreted as the absolutes instead of the middle ground for quickness and ease of reference. I have interpreted the effects of the weapons to be for penetration, and have used the severity and injuries section for the wounds which admittedly is a change but only in that I'm ignoring the sentence about only using it after combat for the medical rolls. I have changed the round to 6 seconds instead of 1 minute, but this is only a somantic change since the round is described as a few seconds to several minutes anyway.

Yes i have given the various effects some rules to make them more distinguishable from each other and i feel that is within the spirit of the rules since there is obviously an intent to do something with them like that. And i changed the armour degradation rules to make the combat flow smother and make everyone vulnerable albeit to vary degrees and depending on the types of armour worn, but also adding a more tactical edge to combat.

In other words, you've changed several aspects of T5 combat--house ruled it, so that it makes more sense to you.

You still need the book to do it my way i have just unified the rules into a cohesive whole and like i said before tried to keep to the Spirit of the rules, and to the spirit of previous editions especially MT.

Inferring that T5 is not cohesive and unified as written and needs House Ruling to make sense.

 

[Hemdian]

I’ve started to look at GunMaker and ArmorMaker, to fathom out the apparent invincibility of standard TL14 battledress. I believe the combat mechanism is sound, it's just a few weird values that are throwing things off.



ArmorMaker

First, there are some issues with the descriptor codes. ‘Combat’, ‘Cold’, and ‘Weapon Carrier’ all use a ‘C’ (which is ambiguous), and both ‘Police’ and ‘Prospector’ use ‘P’ (which is also ambiguous).

Second, the basic Ar values for ‘items’ (p272) seems high. Instead of 7/9/2/4 I would use 3/6/1/2.



GunMaker

First, does not seem to have a mechanism for dealing with multiple ammo types. eg. shotguns can fire slugs or spreadables (buckshot and birdshot). Spreadables should have a bonus to hit but a reduction in penetration.

Second, some weapons (artillery) have a ‘*’ for the H1 damage type yet a value for D1. The text says H1 will be determined by other details of the weapon but in the example given on p258 this disappears. So *-2, Pen-3, Burn-3 becomes Pen-3, Burn-3. Could this be a multiplier of the other damages? Following the example, it should be Pen-6, Burn-3 or even Pen-6, Burn-6?

Third (from before), on p256 ... while pistol is 'single', autopistol and revolver are 'rapid' (which is 'single' but treated as 'burst' for Snap Fire purposes).



(These are all house rules until we hear back from Marc.)

 

[Supplement Four]

I believe the combat mechanism is sound, it's just a few weird values that are throwing things off.

LOL! What!!!???


- How should a bar brawl be handled, where the seven PCs and NPCs of the player's ship engage a rival crew of nine NPCs?

- How is one of those brawlers healed when his 9A8 stats are reduced to 123 during the brawl. That's would Severity 9. A 9D task to heal this dude!!!

- How does a PC hurt an NPC when his pistol does Bullet-1 damage when any damage 9- on an NPC are ignored?

- How do you reslove penetration with weapons? Each type of damage singlely, or by adding them together? If you do them one by one, what order do you use? If you combine them, then how do you resolve wound severity (where cuts are Hits/3 and wounds are Hits/2)?

- Why would any character ever use SnapFire, when AutoFire has the same requirements and penalizes the character less and provides better bonus damage?

- How can a character using a revolver move and fire in the same combat round?

- You're OK with some attack rolls getting easier if the character decides to use a Hasty attack and add dice to difficulty?

- You're OK with a character using Suppression Fire attacking 15 targets in the same round (all the attackers that attack him), yet his buddy, who is using the same weapon, can only attack one target?


I could keep going...but I think I've made the point that T5 Combat problems are much more than "a few wierd values" throwing the game off.