T5 Damage Application???

[Supplement Four]

Out of curiosity, was the question of damage application ever resolved?

For example, take this weapon*

AR-7 Assault Rifle - 7

R=4 Cr750 3.20kg QREBS=5 0 0 0 0 Effects=Bullet-2 Blast-1 Bang-2

Recoil=Yes Loud=Loud Flash=No Heat=No Vacc=Ok UW=No CQ=-5

How is that damage resolved?

Penetration happens when the damage throw is higher than the target's armor value. So, do you throw 5D for penetration? Or, do you first throw 2D for bullet damage, then 1D for Blast damage, then another 2D for Bang damage?

And, what about secondary effects (damage other than hit point damage)? How is that properly played, mechanically, in the game?



* - Generated using Thalassogen's excellent T5 GunMaker.

 

[Hemdian]

I always interpreted it as treat each ‘effect’ separately but combine injury damage of the same type for the same attack (ie. roll once for hit location). So in the example of an AR-7 with bullet-2, blast-1, bang-2 ...

• 2D of bullet damage penetrates armour. Each point that gets through causes 1 Hit of damage.
• 1D of blast damage penetrates armour. Each point that gets through causes 1 Hit of damage.
• 2D of bang damage overwhelms soundproofing. Each point that gets through causes 1D turns of deafness.

(Remember that this is applied in the ‘S’ phase of the next turn.)

If either the bullet damage or blast damage did penetrate then the armour is treated as ‘destroyed’ (in the ‘S’ phase of the next turn.)

My reasoning for believing this is that, ignoring bang damage for the moment, bullet and blast both cause hit injuries. If you combined them *before* checking armour then you’d have a higher penetration (and little reason to list them separately anyway). In other words, by checking separately, a weapon with bullet-3 bang-2 would do the same damage to an unarmoured target as the AR-7 listed above but would have a higher penetration against an armoured target.

And by combining the Hits from a single attack you have fewer but more severe injuries that take longer to recover from. (Which seems conceptually more accurate.)

Of course I could be wrong, this is all IMHO, but I believe it makes sense.

 

[Supplement Four]

I always interpreted it as treat each ‘effect’ separately but combine injury damage of the same type for the same attack (ie. roll once for hit location).

See, that's another can of worms. The way I read T5, Hit Location is never rolled for during combat. It's part of the Medical Healing rules (to find out what's broken before you fix it).

 

[Supplement Four]

My reasoning for believing this is that, ignoring bang damage for the moment, bullet and blast both cause hit injuries. If you combined them *before* checking armour then you’d have a higher penetration (and little reason to list them separately anyway). In other words, by checking separately, a weapon with bullet-3 bang-2 would do the same damage to an unarmoured target as the AR-7 listed above but would have a higher penetration against an armoured target.

So, what you're saying is:
If the weapon's damage is Bullet-2 Blast-1 Bang-2, and a hit is scored against a target in a TL 6 Hostile Environment Suit (Ar=16), then it is impossible for the TL 7 Assault Rifle to damage any target in a TL 6 HE suit.







My next question would be: What order do we resolve the damage if we do, indeed, roll each penetration attempt separately?

Is it the order that is laid out above? Fist Bullet, then Blast, then Bang?

I ask because some weapons have damage that look like this: Blast-2 Frag-3.

If this is applied to a TL9 Vacc Suit (Ar=10), then there will be some situations where Blast-2 does no damage but Frag-3 penetrates and damages the target.

And, that's fine. It's just not clear how the rules work.

 

[Hemdian]

See, that's another can of worms. The way I read T5, Hit Location is never rolled for during combat. It's part of the Medical Healing rules (to find out what's broken before you fix it).

To my mind, if you are shot once then the Hit damage will only affect one location, even if that is from multiple 'damage effects' (like Bullet and Blast). And if you are shot more than once then each 'set' of damage effects can potentially affect a different location.

It is part of the Medical Healing rules, but I personally think it's simpler to note the combined hit damage of a shot during combat rather than sort it out later. Whether you also determine hit location of the shot during combat depends on if you want that information for descriptive purposes at that time.

 

[Hemdian]

So, what you're saying is:
If the weapon's damage is Bullet-2 Blast-1 Bang-2, and a hit is scored against a target in a TL 6 Hostile Environment Suit (Ar=16), then it is impossible for the TL 7 Assault Rifle to damage any target in a TL 6 HE suit.

For Hits damage, yes, that's what I'm saying. But it looks like the HES-6 has Soundproof protection of 1, so the target could still be deafened.

My next question would be: What order do we resolve the damage if we do, indeed, roll each penetration attempt separately?

Is it the order that is laid out above? Fist Bullet, then Blast, then Bang?

I ask because some weapons have damage that look like this: Blast-2 Frag-3.

If this is applied to a TL9 Vacc Suit (Ar=10), then there will be some situations where Blast-2 does no damage but Frag-3 penetrates and damages the target.

And, that's fine. It's just not clear how the rules work.

Since the effects (including armour destruction) are applied in the 'S' phase of the next round, order doesn't matter. Roll each damage effect independently. (In this example, both damage effects have to penetrate Ar=10. Also, any other attacks this round have to defeat Ar=10. At the beginning of the next round, if any Hit damage got through, the armour is 'destroyed'. Not before.)

 

[Hemdian]

I should add that I am less sure about the extra damage that comes from SnapFire (+1D) or AutoFire (+2D). For a while I thought it was added to all damage effects, now I’m thinking it is applied only to the first listed damage effect. (I’d be interested to hear others’ thoughts.) In any case, it appears that it is added after penetration has been checked not before.

 

[Supplement Four]

To my mind, if you are shot once then the Hit damage will only affect one location, even if that is from multiple 'damage effects' (like Bullet and Blast).

You may not be shot "just once", though. The combat round is abstract. The attack roll does not represent one pull of the trigger, but multiple pulls of it.

The AR-7 weapon I used in the OP, after a single successful attack throw, could mean the weapon was used for several magazines on full auto.

This is one of the reasons I'm pretty sure that hit location is not addressed during combat. Hits are taken. Stats are lowered. But it's not until it comes time for the character to be healed that hit location is addressed (and combat could be long forgotten by then).

 

[Hemdian]

Good point.

Hmm ... it could still be a single shot. Maybe if there's extra damage from SnapFire and AutoFire this represents multiple shots? So roll a hit location for the initial shot and if there is additional damage make another location roll ... possibly. I'll have to think about that one.

 

[cym0k]

I just had a look. In my mind you do all the abstract stuff in STAMP separately and apply locations after penetration damage has occurred:

Penetrate
Hits (from Attack) are checked for Penetration of Armor or Protection. Note damage, wounding, or injury. Once this is done (end of Penetrate phase) apply injury exceeding Armor to Target.

For example, Bullet-2 inflicts 2D against Armor-6. Roll 2D (=7): the Armor and listed Protections are Destroyed. The Target receives 1 Hit.

Injury or Damage in excess of those stopped by Armor or Protection is applied to the Target.

SOOOO:
Roll to see if attack(s) penetrate Armor or Protection separately. Roll their damage separately. Apply them separately to the characteristics. That way the character may avoid bullet damage but be deafened by the bang. I'd apply them in any order as its abstracted. Rinse and repeat.

However, I'd also do all the hit location stuff at the end of the combat. Keep a note of it but only use it later. Because the injury types from weapons affect characteristics (generally) those count more than "the hand or leg" location. Once the combat has ended, the effects of the wounds or injuries can be extrapolated from the data collected and noted during combat. The damage and penetration will affect armor or characteristics, so deal with those within the STAMP framework. Later drill down and see what got hacked off or taken out or whatever.

(as was said earlier by other posters...)

 

[Supplement Four]

So roll a hit location for the initial shot and if there is additional damage make another location roll ... possibly. I'll have to think about that one.

The combat round is so abstract (and probably for ease of play), hit location is not even considered until it comes time to patch up the wounded character. I'm pretty sure of that part of it.

Notice the medical rules are exactly like the repair rules. First you figure what's broken (hit location on characters), then you make the attempt to fix it.

Also, due to the abstract nature of combat (and, again, probably ease of play), a character is never considered to have multiple wounds. He has one wound. Whether the character took 18 points of damage from three separate 1D damage attacks during the combat, or if he took 3 points from a single attack that did 3D damage, only one hit location is established. The only way for the character to get a second hit location is for him to participate in an altogether completely separate combat.

If that doesn't sound correct to you, remember how abstract Marc has made the combat. We don't know how many bullets have been fired (as we did in previous versions of Traveller), how many times the weapon was fired (the trigger pulled), or how much ammo was spent (no ammo tracking). All we know is that one character fired and somehow damaged his target.

Keep thining that abstract nature of the game when considering hit location and healing.





Here's how this works in T5, I'm very sure. I'd bet money on it:

We play out combat. Damage is applied in the appropriate combat phase when a character is attacked and hit. Special effects (like being blinded by Flash damage or unconscious for Sound damage) is applied now. And, wounded characters carry on to the next combat round if able.

Once the combat is completed, and a Medic looks at the wounded character, the Hit Location table is consulted one time. Notice, next to the hit location table, there is a note that says it is consulted only for Cuts and Hits.

No matter how many separate times during the combat the character was hit and damaged, his total hits are added up. Divide by two. This gives the Medic the severity of the wound rolled on the Hit Location table.

From there, the Medic makes the throw to improve the wound and heal the character using the Medic rules (under the Medical skill)--just like the Repair rules.





Example.

Joe Traveller 777777 finds himself in combat. The enemy is using an AR-7 which does damage of Bullet-2 Blast-1 Bang-2.

During the combat, five combat rounds are played out, and Joe's enemy rolls a successful attack throw three times: on round 1, round 3, and round 4.

Each time Joe is hit, he becomes deaf for 2D rounds because Joe is wearing no protection against Bang damage.

Because of Joe's Armor, he suffers only 3 points of damage from the attack on round 1, and his stats are lowered to 477. On round 3, he's hit again, this time for 5 points of damage, and his stats become 472. Round 4, he's hit again, this last time for 4 points of damage, making his stats 432.



The combat ceases. Joe's side won. All enemies are incapaciated.

Joe's crewman, the ship's doctor, takes a look at Joe's wounds. Joe is still deaf, but his hearing is slowing coming back (after the required rounds of deafness have expired).

Joe has suffered a total of 12 points of damage (it takes 12 points to raise Joe's stats back up to their fully healed level).

A roll on the hit location table is made, indicating that Joe has taken a wound to the Head. For color, the Ref states that Joe was blasted in the face by shattered brick shrapnel when one of his enemy's blasts tore into Joe's cover during the engagement.

Since total damage is 12, Severity is 6.

The Medic makes the roll using the medical rules to heal Joe's damage.

 

[Licheking]

If the combat works this way then the majority of weapons would never hurt someone in Battledress (typical Ar-50+). You would need a weapon doing at least 9 damage to even have a chance to get through the Ar. Which means the only way to take out battledress equipped troops is with massive missiles and starship weapons.

 

[Supplement Four]

Since total damage is 12, Severity is 6.

If the combat works this way then the majority of weapons would never hurt someone in Battledress (typical Ar-50+). You would need a weapon doing at least 9 damage to even have a chance to get through the Ar. Which means the only way to take out battledress equipped troops is with massive missiles and starship weapons.

We desperately need clarification from Marc on how these systems work.

If they work they way I'm reading them (and my opinion is one of many on how they work), then I fear T5 has even more problems in store for it ahead.

According to page 240, TL 14 Standard Battle Dress is Ar=45.

With 45 points of Armor, the only way it's going to be defeated is if a minimum of 8D of damage is thrown at it. Even then, it's less than a 1% chance of throwing 45+ on 8D.

NONE of the sample weapons on page 240 even come close to that kind of damage (even if you do combine damage types to get more dice to throw for penetration). The TL 12 Gauss Carbine does Bullet-3. The TL 9 Grenade Multi-Launcher does Blast-2 Frag-3. Add those together, to get 5D penetration, and you still can't penetrate Standard Battle Dress.

If I'm correct about how to use hit location and the medical rules (earlier post above), and the would Severity is 6, then that's a 6D Hopeless task to heal a character that hasn't had a single physical characteristic dropped to zero (777 reduced by 12 points of damage from three attacks to 432). If that task is that hard, how's it going to be when the character is reduced to 002?

I'm really interested to see how Marc explains all this because, from where I'm standing, I'm seeing problem after problem pop up with the game.

 

[Hemdian]

The sample weapons in the book are a very small sample indeed, and more geared towards player characters (or should be). Using thelassogen's GunMaker web tool I just knocked a quick weapon at the same TL that could defeat StDB-14:

StVhFGC-14  Standard Vheavy Fusion Gun Crewed - 14

R=5  Cr150,000  82.80kg  QREBS=5 0 0+6 0  Effects=Pen-10 Burn-4

Recoil=Hi  Loud=Vloud  Flash=Bright  Heat=Hot  Vacc=Ok  UW=No  CQ=-3

But even so, battledress at Ar=45 seems a little high. Maybe there's a flaw in ArmorMaker's figures? (I haven't got around to looking at ArmorMaker yet.)

 

[Supplement Four]

The sample weapons in the book are a very small sample indeed, and more geared towards player characters (or should be). Using thelassogen's GunMaker web tool I just knocked a quick weapon at the same TL that could defeat StDB-14:

StVhFGC-14  Standard Vheavy Fusion Gun Crewed - 14
 
R=5  Cr150,000  82.80kg  QREBS=5 0 0+6 0  Effects=Pen-10 Burn-4
 
Recoil=Hi  Loud=Vloud  Flash=Bright  Heat=Hot  Vacc=Ok  UW=No  CQ=-3

But even so, battledress at Ar=45 seems a little high. Maybe there's a flaw in ArmorMaker's figures? (I haven't got around to looking at ArmorMaker yet.)

Is Battledress supposed to be a tank, making soldiers invulnerable to everything that's less powerful than a fusion gun????

And, from a purely game-mechanics prospective, do you think it a good idea to have players roll 14 friggin' dice when they hit!!!

 

[Hemdian]

As I said, the Ar value of battledress looks a little too high to me but I haven't had a chance to go through ArmorMaker looking for bugs. I was merely pointing out that, even as it stands at the moment, battledress isn't invulnerable.

Meanwhile, rolling 14 dice for damage ... you should have sat in on some of my friends' AD&D games back in the day. Admittedly 14 dice was rare, but one campaign routinely featured 10 dice (three 10th level MUs with multiple copies of fireball memorised). I don't think I ever heard anyone complain about too many dice. (Of course when rolling that many dice you might want to roll into a box lid to stop them scattering off the table.) Also, I'm seeing a growing number of gamers starting to use dice apps on their smart phones or tablets which renders this even more of a non-issue.

 

[thalassogen]

There seems to be a problem with applying damage types separately:

AR-7 Assault Rifle - 7
R=4 Cr750 3.20kg QREBS=5 0 0 0 0 Effects=Bullet-2 Blast-1 Bang-2
Recoil=Yes Loud=Loud Flash=No Heat=No Vacc=Ok UW=No CQ=-5

versus

HS-4 Hunting Shotgun - 4
R=3 Cr360 3.60kg QREBS=5 0 0 0 0 Effects=Bullet-3
Recoil=Yes Loud=Loud Flash=No Heat=No Vacc=Ok UW=No CQ=-3

I have no experience with real guns (I am living in Germany) and have to base my thoughts on hear-say, so please correct me if I am wrong.

As far as I know shotguns are for hunting fowl spreading the shot to make it easier hitting birds and other small animals. To me it seems reasonable that several smaller wounds are messier (more damaging) to a living being than one larger wound. But I cannot understand why several smaller projectiles as a whole should be more able to penetrate armor than a specialized fighting weapon firing one larger projectile.

Considering this I have to vote for combing damage rolls that target a single type of protection (armor, sound, etc.). Thereby the AR and the HS would be equal in penetrating armor. Still not believable to me but better than the HS being the superior penetrator.

 

[Licheking]

from GunMaker 1001 and ArmorMaker 1001 from the FFE website the biggest damage a weapon has there is:-
AVhGrPj-15 Advanced Vheavy Grav Projector -15 R=5 Cr24000 9.6 kg Grav -11
ObVhaCV-12 Obsolete Vheavy AutoCannon Tank Mount -12 R=6 Cr30000 840 kg Pen-11

while the best Ar ratings are:-
( AH ) DD-16 Advanced Heavy Drop Dress -16 Cr480000 124 90 26 68 26 68 01 26 68
( ModH ) DD-15 Modified Heavy Drop Dress -15 Cr288000 140 83 19 61 19 61 01 19 61
( AH ) HEA-13 Advanced Heavy Hostile Environ Armor -13 Cr640000 37 74 23 23 44 23 01 44 56

I haven't included Oversize or Titan armours here. None of the armours above can be penetrated by the most powerful weapons listed in the GunMaker 1001, 11D = 66 maximum damage. Even taking this as a normal and cheap armour (St) PD-11 Standard Police Dress -11 Cr68000 24 45 06 30 06 06 01 06 12 the average roll from the most powerful weapons wouldn't get through the armour. Now personally i don't think this is a problem for my interpretation of the combat system, but for the 'official' way of doing things i see it as a big problem.

( Mod ) BD-15 Modified Battle Dress -15 Cr240000 90 48 33 33 33 33 05 33 33
assuming this is the standard for the imperial marines and zhodani and that they carry VlPGMP-14 Vlight Plasma Gun Man Portable -14 R=2 Cr90000 13 kg Burn -3 Pen-4, the maximum damage even if you add them together is 42 (7x6) which means that an army from each side would be fighting all day long and never hurt the other side.

 

[thalassogen]

from GunMaker 1001 and ArmorMaker 1001 from the FFE website the biggest damage a weapon has there is:-
AVhGrPj-15 Advanced Vheavy Grav Projector -15 R=5 Cr24000 9.6 kg Grav -11
ObVhaCV-12 Obsolete Vheavy AutoCannon Tank Mount -12 R=6 Cr30000 840 kg Pen-11

As a side note:

"1001" seems to be wrong, I am getting:

AVhGPj-17 Advanced Vheavy Grav Projector - 17
R=5 Cr60,000 9.60kg QREBS=5 0 0+2 0 Effects=Grav-8
Recoil=No Loud=Silent Flash=No Heat=No Vacc=Ok UW=No CQ=No

and I cannot even construct an "Obsolete Vheavy AutoCannon" as there is no <blank> descriptor available...

 

[robject]

( Mod ) BD-15 Modified Battle Dress -15 Cr240000 90 48 33 33 33 33 05 33 33
assuming this is the standard for the imperial marines and zhodani and that they carry VlPGMP-14 Vlight Plasma Gun Man Portable -14 R=2 Cr90000 13 kg Burn -3 Pen-4, the maximum damage even if you add them together is 42 (7x6) which means that an army from each side would be fighting all day long and never hurt the other side.

According to LBB7 (?), a fire team of 4 has one support element in battledress + PGMP, and the rest in lighter gear. BD and PGMPs are not issued to every man. So the support guns stop the rest of the infantry.

Presumably a vehicle weapon half the cost of the armor can be applied to battledress, such as:

Code  : EVhOsGGT-13
Name  : Early Vh Os Gauss Gun Turret-13
Range : NaN (probably a 5 or 6 -- my script died on this calculation)
Mass  : 440
Burden: 4
Damage: (20D) Bullet-20 (MgT : 6D + 1)
Cost  : KCr 120