T5 combat done the Licheking way
- Thread starter Licheking
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Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
If you're interested, the Ammo Dice idea was my second, a tad more simple idea. My first idea for ammo tracking is HERE IN THIS OP.
That may be more to your taste.
I like simple rules the report as much detail as possible.
The way I wrote the Ammo Dice thing, everything is optional. If you just want to deal with doubles and no modifiers, you can do that. Or, if you want skill to come into play, lowering the amount of ammo used by a character, there's an option for that. If you want to add in more detail, where different weapons spit out different amounts of lead, you can do that too.
It's a flexible system.
And, I don't think what I suggested is the only way to use Ammo Dice. For example, instead of removing magazines, you could change the system to detail that the character is out of ammo, period. Gloss over the magazine change and have a low probability each roll of having the weapon go out of ammo. You could probably even make Ammo Dice where the probability goes up each time the weapon is fired.
Or, as I said above, there's the other idea, too.
I always liked the "breakdown" number for support weapons as used in the old "Squad Leader" game by Avalon Hill. MG's had a number on the high end of the probablitiy curve that was based on their ammo consumption, their feed device (belt, drum, magazine, etc.), and their reliability. Any time an attack roll equalled or exceeded the number the weapon was "broken" until it was repaired (this was also a roll that would produce minimal effect on the target). The repair number was at the opposite end of the probability curve and was based on reliability, and the availability of more ammo. A catastrophic failure resulted if the repair roll was on the far end of the probability scale based and disabled the gun for the remainder of the game. Actions like exceeding the set number of shots per round increased the chances of a stoppage.
Belt-fed Browning MGs were unlikely to stop and easily repaired with little chance of disabling. German MGs (due to a high rate of fire) stopped easily and were easily repaired but had a slightly higher disable probability. Italian MGs stopped as easily as the German MGs, were harder to repair and were more likely to be disabled.
In general it did a very good job of simulating the "in action" maintenance of a weapon in a minimalist way. However, it did not track ammo supply (unless the game started with a modifier for "low ammo") and so assumed that more ammo was always available. This was for a platoon or company level war game and so the ease was well worth the abstraction.
Belt-fed Browning MGs were unlikely to stop and easily repaired with little chance of disabling. German MGs (due to a high rate of fire) stopped easily and were easily repaired but had a slightly higher disable probability. Italian MGs stopped as easily as the German MGs, were harder to repair and were more likely to be disabled.
In general it did a very good job of simulating the "in action" maintenance of a weapon in a minimalist way. However, it did not track ammo supply (unless the game started with a modifier for "low ammo") and so assumed that more ammo was always available. This was for a platoon or company level war game and so the ease was well worth the abstraction.
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Thoom
SOC-11
I'm interested in your (and anyone who's played/refereed T5) opinion. Looking at the probability, it seems to me that a character has mostly 100% chance to hit at Range 1, unless he has a combination of below average Char and no skill. Even with no skill, with a Char or 8+ he has 100% chance of hitting his opponent.
Doesn't that seem too high probability, or perhaps I'm missing something?
Edit: Ok I see you use different ranges than the text, which is better. Still, even at R=2 someone with Char=7 and Skill=1 has 97% to hit and someone with Char=8+ has 100%.
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Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Welcome to T5. I'm sure I'll get a comment or two about how I'm hammering on T5 again, but I see it as helping out someone who is trying to learn the game.
Be prepared. T5 is full of rules that are unclear, broken rules, good ideas that are poorly executed, typos, and poor organization. My experience has been that no system in T5 is easily understood. The game has a tremendous learning curve. And, in order to play it, as it is today (with just the Core Rulebook), a T5 Ref will constantly have to make sense out of stuff that doesn't by fixing things with house rules.
I don't mean that as a negative on the game. I mean it as reality.
I will say, though, that T5 does have an incredible inviting charm to it. There's something about this mass of broken rules and unfinished thoughts that keeps calling me--like no other Traveller edition has since Classic Traveller.
T5 definitely has its charms.
Just be prepared for the work required of a T5 Ref.
It doesn't seem out of whack for me, i have done shooting and its actually very hard to miss a target standing still or immobile up to 50m if you have a reasonably accurate weapon and good firing stance. The way i run combat it can be quite lethal especially if your not wearing armour. If you are wearing armour then you can typically let a few shots hit you and survive the tactics come down to how do you get more shots on your target than they can get on you.
If you wish to play it as it has been interpreted by a lot of people then its fairly harmless again if your wearing armour. For example if your wearing typical Battledress none of the weapons in the game can get through it unless its a starship one. Combat armour requires a weapon doing 6 dice typically to have a chance to get through, although once it has your dead on the next shot again this is if you use the combat as others have interpreted it. The only tactics in this version is to find out if your opponent can hurt you at all, if they can't then you are in no danger and you can charge at them and hopefully kill them. The main problem i see here is, if neither of you can hurt the other then you will never resolve the combat.
Both sides are wearing ( Lt ) EnvA-10 Light Environ Armor -10 Cr33000 10 25 09 09 00 09 01 57 27 and using StdAcP-10 Standard Accelerator Pistol -10 R=2 Cr270 0.6 kg Bullet -4, the maximum rolled damage from the pistols is 24 not enough to go through the Ar-25 of the armour, so the two combatants will be shooting all day long never hurting the other. In my version at least the armour will be getting damaged and eventually you will see someone getting hurt so cover and movement become more of a factor to limit your own exposure while increasing your opponents so you can hopefully score more hits on them than they can on you.
If you wish to play it as it has been interpreted by a lot of people then its fairly harmless again if your wearing armour. For example if your wearing typical Battledress none of the weapons in the game can get through it unless its a starship one. Combat armour requires a weapon doing 6 dice typically to have a chance to get through, although once it has your dead on the next shot again this is if you use the combat as others have interpreted it. The only tactics in this version is to find out if your opponent can hurt you at all, if they can't then you are in no danger and you can charge at them and hopefully kill them. The main problem i see here is, if neither of you can hurt the other then you will never resolve the combat.
Both sides are wearing ( Lt ) EnvA-10 Light Environ Armor -10 Cr33000 10 25 09 09 00 09 01 57 27 and using StdAcP-10 Standard Accelerator Pistol -10 R=2 Cr270 0.6 kg Bullet -4, the maximum rolled damage from the pistols is 24 not enough to go through the Ar-25 of the armour, so the two combatants will be shooting all day long never hurting the other. In my version at least the armour will be getting damaged and eventually you will see someone getting hurt so cover and movement become more of a factor to limit your own exposure while increasing your opponents so you can hopefully score more hits on them than they can on you.
Given leasurely time to point/aim at a human-sized target getting a hit should be near certain for anyone not falling into the "physically challenged" spectrum of motor skills. However, when things are happening quickly and there is no time to steady the aim and the shot must be fired at the first instant you should probably add a "this is hard" extra die to the attack. Likewise I like adding a "this is hard" die to all handgun attacks made when holding the handgun in a single hand/paw/tenticle/etc. due to errors in hand placement effecting the accuracy of the shot.
Thoom
SOC-11
OK so what I'm reading from both of you is that you're ok with automatic hits up to 50m. Your players are ok with it also I guess.
Personal experience with guns aside, I find it strange in a RPG that most fights encounters are going to be automatic hits on both sides. I like to roll dice!
On the personal experience with guns (which I *do* also have btw), I agree that if you take your time you can probably hit things at 50m, even with a handgun (which is harder to do than with a rifle for instance, a fact which the rules don't take into account), but perhaps not while you're being shot at by others (although I don't have experience with *that*
).
Most RPGs I played there was even a chance to miss at point blank.
But I wanted your opinion on it and also if I had missed something obvious. Thanks! I like your houserules btw and will most certainly use many of them. The ranges for instance make much more sense that way to me.
Personal experience with guns aside, I find it strange in a RPG that most fights encounters are going to be automatic hits on both sides. I like to roll dice!
On the personal experience with guns (which I *do* also have btw), I agree that if you take your time you can probably hit things at 50m, even with a handgun (which is harder to do than with a rifle for instance, a fact which the rules don't take into account), but perhaps not while you're being shot at by others (although I don't have experience with *that*
).Most RPGs I played there was even a chance to miss at point blank.
But I wanted your opinion on it and also if I had missed something obvious. Thanks!
I like your houserules btw and will most certainly use many of them. The ranges for instance make much more sense that way to me.This would come into play for those with only 1 skill firing at range-2 anyway or skill-0 firing at any range. I agree there should be a chance of misses at short range and thats why i use the QREBS rule which if you check up allows you as a GM to determine if a piece of equipment will go wrong during the session, it doesn't have to be spectacular it could be as mundane as the sights are out and the shots keep missing.
Thoom
SOC-11
I've been thinking about my own house rules and I've come up with a couple that I'd like to run by you all:
1. Hey I'm being shot at!
Fighting task goes as stated in the book, except when you're in a dangerous situation (a gunfight for instance), then you have to be mindful of your own survival. Since you have your attention divided, you have a -2 Mod. Or, if you want to 'not mind' the danger, then you don't have this Mod, but your opponents have the +2 Mod (equivalent of the 'oblivious' Mod). This makes things a little more uncertain at short range when you're in a fight, and doesn't change anything when you're in an ambush for exemple (before you're being fired at by your opponents).
2. Range does matter!
There is a penalty of -2 when using a weapon at maximum range, and a penalty of -1 when at max_range minus one. So a R=4 rifle would impose a -1 at R=3 and -2 at R=4.
Or perhaps it should be -1 at max range and -2 at max range *plus* one?
1. Hey I'm being shot at!
Fighting task goes as stated in the book, except when you're in a dangerous situation (a gunfight for instance), then you have to be mindful of your own survival. Since you have your attention divided, you have a -2 Mod. Or, if you want to 'not mind' the danger, then you don't have this Mod, but your opponents have the +2 Mod (equivalent of the 'oblivious' Mod). This makes things a little more uncertain at short range when you're in a fight, and doesn't change anything when you're in an ambush for exemple (before you're being fired at by your opponents).
2. Range does matter!
There is a penalty of -2 when using a weapon at maximum range, and a penalty of -1 when at max_range minus one. So a R=4 rifle would impose a -1 at R=3 and -2 at R=4.
Or perhaps it should be -1 at max range and -2 at max range *plus* one?
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Take a look at my sig, at the T5 line (T5 Fixes). Click there, and you'll see some suggestions I've made about several parts of the game that are out of whack.
Thoom
SOC-11
Interesting. Yet, there is nothing that fixes the 'automatic hit at short range' in there that I can see.
I find it strange that no one is willing to discuss what I'm proposing.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Oh, I definitly think it's a problem.
Range=2 is 50m. If a character has a pistol, with DEX-7 and Pistol-2, he's got a 100% chance to hit.
That's 2D for 12 or less (+3 modifier for apparent range 5-2 = 3).
50 meters is a long, long way to be accurate with a pistol, 100% of the time, every shot, every squeeze of the trigger.
It's just another thing that's wonky about T5.
As you read more and more of the game, you'll find more of this kind of stuff.
I really think that there's too many things like this that need fixing that make the game unplayable.
One thing you could do is use some sort of minimum difficulty or modifer on short range shots that makes the task likely, but not 100%.
If that is the case why do you insist on ragging on it to all an sundry and just leave it alone. Play something more to your tastes and stop claiming that you really 'want to like T5', because quite frankly you don't, you love to rip it apart and your hoping loads of people agree with you. What is it you want, to bring the game down, destroy T5 completely or try and make yourself seem to be the big man by 'fixing' the game, proving your better than everyone else including the games creator.
Pistol - 2 would indicate more than a cursory familiarization with a handgun; probably the level to which a member of the police would be expected to maintain; not a crack shot or member of a tactical team but can pass a qualification. Also, keep in mind that we are talking a human-sized target; roughly 1.5 x 0.75 meters and that a hit indicates just that, a hit somewhere in that area, not necessarily dead center, and that no motion or any other circumstance/modifier is being taken into account.
Thoom
SOC-11
Supplement Four said:
I appreciate your feedback Supplement4, I know you want to help. I think what others observe is true though. For exemple, in this thread, you don't really answer my question (is my proposed house rule sound). You didn't read my post (or you would not have replied the above). You reiterate that the whole thing is broken. No system is a perfect fit for each person's taste, that is why we all have house rules. Just be careful not to throw away the good with the bad.
Licheking, I like your houserules ideas. It helped me, as did others talking about their game. Here though, you took the time to answer Supplement4's comments, but not my simple question (is my proposed house rule sound). You have house rules yourself, you agree there are things that need tweaking for each referee's taste, yet you focus on S4's critics instead of the subject of my question (about house rules) in a thread about house rules.
I was asking for the point of view of someone with actual T5 gaming experience (which you do) about a couple of proposed house rules and I'd still like to get it.
Peace.
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Sorry about that, yes you were. I like them, they sound well balanced and thought out and don't overly complicate the combat system either which is obviously a big plus. For careers that i think of none combat i make the character roll a 5D composure check based on their Int and Edu if they fail then they have to keep their head down and do nothing, but if they make it then they can act but with a +1D modifier until i think they have got some combat experience. I use a modifier based on ranges beyond the base range for that weapon type (as noted on p.251), so a pistol trying to hit something at range-4 would have a -2, this way rifles are better for the long range shots.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I did read your house rule. I just didn't want to spend a lot of time analyzing a House Rule.
Thoom
SOC-11
Thanks for the feedback. I like the composure check idea. Is that 5D < (Int + Edu), or is it against either Int or Edu?
And if I understand correctly, you've got a Mod of (actual range - max range) if actual range is greater than max range. I like that, easier than what I was thinking.
See, I knew it was a good idea to ask
Thanks!
