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T5.0.9 Equipment

Timerover51

Timerover51

SOC-14 5K
I found this in the Equipment list, and it reminded me of something I had found a while back on archives.org. Probably will post more stuff like this.

Galley, Micro
TL 9, Size 6, 500 kg, Cr 2,000. (0.5 dtons)
Includes: Sink; Dishwasher with various pots pans and dishes stored in it; a fast-cooking oven (at eye level); 1.0 meter x 0.5 meter counter top; pull/fold out table 1 meter x 0.5 meter, seats two; Folding chairs under counter; Apartment sized refrigerator for keeping certain beverages cold; under cabinet coffeepot (just below eye level) just add dried dehydrate beverage of choice (makes one liter at a time); cabinets for ready to grab dry goods; two burner induction stove; cleaner bot stowed under the cabinets.
Click to expand...

Found on page 637.

For a Tech Level 5 Aerial Galley, see the following, the date is August, 1945:

https://archive.org/details/FeedingInFlight

The Menu for Monday:

Breakfast:
Pineapple juice
Dry cereal & Milk
Scrambled eggs and bacon
Melba toast & Jam
Coffee

Dinner:
Pot roast of beef and gravy
Steamed potatoes
Stewed tomatoes
Carrot sticks
Whole wheat bread
Butter
Iced cup cakes
Coffee

Supper:
Cream of split pea soup
Crackers
Cold cuts
Hot potato salad
Rolls & Jam
Sliced peaches
Chocolate candy
Coffee
 
I was wondering where something like the following Real World item would fit in Thingmaker. It dates from World War 2 and went into service in 1943. As a Microwave set, I guess you would call it Tech Level 6.

The AN/APS-6 3 cm Radar was a widely used US Navy night-fighter radar in World War 2. It was operated by the pilot of the aircraft, primarily single seat F6F Hellcat and F7F Tigercat fighters. It weighed 242 pounds, without including the power cables. The maximum reliable range on bombers at 10,000 feet was 10,000 yd. or 9.144 kilometers, on fighters at 8,000 feet the range was 8,000 yd. or 7.3152 Kilometers, with a detection range of Battleships on the surface of 35 miles (that would be nautical miles or 64.82 Kilometers). As of 1 August 1945, the US Navy had received 2161 at a unit cost per set of $10,938. That was a pretty high cost in World War 2, as a Jeep cost about $1000, a DUKW nearly $6000, and a P-40 in 1944 was costing $44.892.

In the Technology Chart on page 506, Radar is listed as a Tech Level 9 technology. The following item in the equipment section on page 635 sort of sounds like the AN/APS-6, but is again Tech Level 9.

Radar
TL 9, Size 5, 50 kg, Cr 50,000. Range=6. Radar projects radio pulses in sweeping scans of an area and interprets the returned signals (echoes)
for information about an objects size, distance, and speed.
Click to expand...

Size 5 might be a bit long for the AN/APS-6, but looking at the manual, there are several components mounted on the aircraft. It is a bit heavier than 50 kilograms, running about 110 kilograms. A Range=6 equates to an average range of 5 kilometers, with a maximum range of 25 kilometers, while the AN/APS-6 range is more than twice that, and the Pilot's Manual gives a maximum range on islands and groups of ships of 65 nautical miles, or 120 kilometers, which puts it at Range=7. As for price, if you convert 1945 Dollars to 1976 Dollars, you get an inflation multiplier of 3.16, so the cost would be $34,564. The 1976 Dollar has been regularly quoted as being equal to 1 Imperial Credit.

Overall, it would appear that while the Tech Level 6 AN/APS-6 is heavier than the quoted Tech Level 9 Radar, it has considerably greater range, and is about 70% of the price of the Tech Level 9 equipment. However, according to the chart at the bottom of page 497, as it is 3 Tech Levels lower than Tech Level 9, the AN/APS-6 should be a one-of-a-kind experimental version, much heavier, with lesser capacity and costing 10 times as much as a Tech Level 9 radar. With 2161 units delivered as of 1 August 1945, I do not think that you can call it even a prototype, as that is a lot of units for a radar.

So, should Radar be a Tech Level 6 Technology, or remain at Tech Level 9?
 
timerover51 said:
I was wondering where something like the following Real World item would fit in Thingmaker. It dates from World War 2 and went into service in 1943. As a Microwave set, I guess you would call it Tech Level 6.

The AN/APS-6 3 cm Radar was a widely used US Navy night-fighter radar in World War 2. It was operated by the pilot of the aircraft, primarily single seat F6F Hellcat and F7F Tigercat fighters. It weighed 242 pounds, without including the power cables. The maximum reliable range on bombers at 10,000 feet was 10,000 yd. or 9.144 kilometers, on fighters at 8,000 feet the range was 8,000 yd. or 7.3152 Kilometers, with a detection range of Battleships on the surface of 35 miles (that would be nautical miles or 64.82 Kilometers). As of 1 August 1945, the US Navy had received 2161 at a unit cost per set of $10,938. That was a pretty high cost in World War 2, as a Jeep cost about $1000, a DUKW nearly $6000, and a P-40 in 1944 was costing $44.892.

In the Technology Chart on page 506, Radar is listed as a Tech Level 9 technology. The following item in the equipment section on page 635 sort of sounds like the AN/APS-6, but is again Tech Level 9.



Size 5 might be a bit long for the AN/APS-6, but looking at the manual, there are several components mounted on the aircraft. It is a bit heavier than 50 kilograms, running about 110 kilograms. A Range=6 equates to an average range of 5 kilometers, with a maximum range of 25 kilometers, while the AN/APS-6 range is more than twice that, and the Pilot's Manual gives a maximum range on islands and groups of ships of 65 nautical miles, or 120 kilometers, which puts it at Range=7. As for price, if you convert 1945 Dollars to 1976 Dollars, you get an inflation multiplier of 3.16, so the cost would be $34,564. The 1976 Dollar has been regularly quoted as being equal to 1 Imperial Credit.

Overall, it would appear that while the Tech Level 6 AN/APS-6 is heavier than the quoted Tech Level 9 Radar, it has considerably greater range, and is about 70% of the price of the Tech Level 9 equipment. However, according to the chart at the bottom of page 497, as it is 3 Tech Levels lower than Tech Level 9, the AN/APS-6 should be a one-of-a-kind experimental version, much heavier, with lesser capacity and costing 10 times as much as a Tech Level 9 radar. With 2161 units delivered as of 1 August 1945, I do not think that you can call it even a prototype, as that is a lot of units for a radar.

So, should Radar be a Tech Level 6 Technology, or remain at Tech Level 9?
Click to expand...

I asked this question a while back and it looks like no one answered it, so I am asking it again.

So, should Radar be a Tech Level 6 Technology, or remain at Tech Level 9?
 
timerover51 said:
I asked this question a while back and it looks like no one answered it, so I am asking it again.

So, should Radar be a Tech Level 6 Technology, or remain at Tech Level 9?
Click to expand...

mike wightman said:
Radar should be TL6 IMHO
Click to expand...

Actually, considering the T5 paradigm for Prototype technologies, I would think (Standard) Radar would be TL7, which would put Experimental Radar at TL4, Prototype Radar at TL5, and Early Radar at TL6.
 
One of the problems I see with T5 is the seeming lack of consistancy of applying Developmental Stages. In cases like this allowing Early Radar at TL6 only makes sense with regard to the historical develpment of radar. The given examples of firearms certainly seem to bear this out. However, in other cases, generally dealing with future tech like grav & jump, the tech is anchored to a certain tech level and occurs in its Standard form when it does; Early, Prototype, and Experimental only coming into play when a lower Tech builder attempts replication.
 
whulorigan said:
Actually, considering the T5 paradigm for Prototype technologies, I would think (Standard) Radar would be TL7, which would put Experimental Radar at TL4, Prototype Radar at TL5, and Early Radar at TL6.
Click to expand...
So you are going to build an experimental radar set before the theory of electromagnetic radiation has even been postulated?
This is the fundamental flaw with the T5 experimental/prototype/early model.
Not to mention the TL3 atomic bomb...

TL should be for paradigm shifts in scientific and engineering understanding, stage effects should be a fractional variation of a TL.
 
Epee said:
One of the problems I see with T5 is the seeming lack of consistancy of applying Developmental Stages. In cases like this allowing Early Radar at TL6 only makes sense with regard to the historical develpment of radar. The given examples of firearms certainly seem to bear this out. However, in other cases, generally dealing with future tech like grav & jump, the tech is anchored to a certain tech level and occurs in its Standard form when it does; Early, Prototype, and Experimental only coming into play when a lower Tech builder attempts replication.
Click to expand...

I am not worried about Future Technology. What does bother me is the complete absence of any reasonable approach to historic technology. This Early, Prototype, and Experimental concept simply does not work when applied to historic Technology.

Per the Construction Material Table on page 640 of T5.0.9. stone is not a standard building material until Tech Level 3. Would someone like to tell that to the Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans? Bronze is a standard material at Tech Level 3.5, while Tech Level 1 is called the "Bronze Age". Iron is Tech Level 4 for Armor, while Tech Level 1.3 is called the "Iron Age". Leather is listed at Tech Level 3 for Armor as well, along with Wood as a construction material.

I have a picture of an Phoenician double-banked galley with a ram from circa 700 BC. Then you have the Thera Murals from circa 1600 BC. Care to look at where Galleys show up on the Tech Level Chart? The Romans were using sailing ships, some quite large, to move 100,000 to 150,000 tons of grain each year from Egypt to Rome. The Viking were sailing ships to Greenland and Iceland across the North Atlantic from Norway circa 900 AD. The Polynesians were colonizing the Pacific islands prior to the same period. Look at when sailing ships are supposed to be standard.

Edit Note: Exact Tech Levels corrected and highlighted.
 
Last edited:
mike wightman said:
This is the fundamental flaw with the T5 experimental/prototype/early model.
Not to mention the TL3 atomic bomb...

TL should be for paradigm shifts in scientific and engineering understanding, stage effects should be a fractional variation of a TL.
Click to expand...

I generally like the [TL=Paradigm Shift] concept as well, but that would be somewhat difficult to introduce into the existing OTU technological framework, I think, simply because TL9 thru TL15 as already described in canon don't seem to be major paradigm shifts. But I could go with Experimental/Prototype being at TL -1, and Early thru Improved being "Standard" TL.

As I noted in another thread, I actually wish that the idea of "TL-Progression Slope" that was introduced in TNE:FF&S had been retained (i.e some technologies mature faster than others).
 
whulorigan said:
Electromagnetic Radiation was encoded in Maxwell's Equations in the mid-late 19th Century. That is very late TL3 to early TL4.
Click to expand...
Yup, it is TL4 according to CT/MT sources; Maxwell published in 1865, which paved the way for TL5 IMHO, since it would take over a decade to produce radio waves and a further couple of decades to do anything with them. Hence 1900 being TL5.

An argument could be made that Faraday could have invented a privative radio transmitter/receiver (TL3 almost 4), but then Newton came very close to inventing the spectroscope, but he didn't so it would take another 100 years for that breakthrough.

More should be made of a TL decimal scale...
 
mike wightman said:
It is TL4 according to CT/MT sources; Maxwell published in 1865, which paved the way for TL5 IMHO, since it would take over a decade to produce radio waves and a further couple of decades to do anything with them. Hence 1900 being TL5.
Click to expand...

In T5, TL3 is defined as ca 1800, and TL4 is defined as ca 1900. TL5 is defined as ca 1925.

An argument could be made that Faraday could have invented a privative radio transmitter/receiver (TL3almost4), but then Newton came very close to inventing the spectroscope, but he didn't so it would take another 100 years for that breakthrough.

More should be made of a TL decimal scale...
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
whulorigan said:

I generally like the [TL=Paradigm Shift] concept as well, but that would be somewhat difficult to introduce into the existing OTU technological framework, I think, simply because TL9 thru TL15 as already described in canon don't seem to be major paradigm shifts.
Click to expand...
I know what you mean.
TLs 9-15 could easily be collapsed into 3
TL9 - fusion, gravitics, jump 1-2
TL10 - nuclear dampers, 'meson' tech, fusion+, jump 3-4
TL11 - jump 5-6, advanced fusion,
Starts to look a little GURPS TL like :)
But I could go with Experimental/Prototype being at TL -1, and Early thru Improved being "Standard" TL.
Click to expand...
I could go with that - or use a TL sublevel.

As I noted in another thread, I actually wish that the idea of "TL-Progression Slope" that was introduced in TNE:FF&S had been retained (i.e some technologies mature faster than others).
Click to expand...
The T5 tech progression chart looks like an adaptation of it at first sight - but yet again I agree.
 
mike wightman said:
That is quite a shift from previous versions - including every Alien Module which gives a historical equivalence in the world gen TL charts ;)
Click to expand...

Actually, that TL-progression (or at least a minor variant of it) was previously introduced in both MT and TNE. (And I misspoke - T5.09 tweaked the dates slightly from T5.00):

TL Chart (Various Editions)

TL MT/TNE T5.09
0.0Stone AgeStone Age
1.0Bronze Age thru Medievalca 3500BC
1.3 -- ca 1300BC
1.6 -- ca 600AD
2.0ca 1600 ca 1500
3.0ca 1800 ca 1700
3.3 -- ca 1800
3.6 -- ca 1850
4.0ca 1900 ca 1900
5.0ca 1930 ca 1930
6.0ca 1950 ca 1950
7.0ca 1970 ca 1975
8.0ca 1990 ca 2000
9.0ca 2010 ca 2050
10.0ca 2100 ca 2100
Click to expand...
T4 for some reason went back to a minor variant of the CT scale.
 
Probably because that scale doesn't work for the real world.

The following are all taken from the MT RC TL tables with real world dates added for comparison:

Steam engine - 1712 TL4 (pretty paradigm changing)
Metal cartridge - 1845 ammo TL4
Gatling gun - 1864 TL4 (the modern battlefield is right around the corner)
Telephone - 1876 TL4
Vaccination - 1796 TL4
Trains - 1804 TL4
Steamships - 1783 TL4
Ironclads - 1858 TL4 (naval warfare would never be the same)
Dirigible - 1852 TL4

So TL4 would be better defined as the CT 1850-1900.
 
Actually tech levels should be considered only generalisations and each level will always be up for debate. We have TL0 cultures still in existence here. Stone age,Bronze, Iron, gunpowder all mixed together during the roman empire - again just depended on where you were.
Leather armor is still used today! (hello motocyles). ⚔? Yes bows for warfare as well- WW2!

Where one TL ends is not the beginning of another but generally a blend of 4 or 5 others!
 
I posted this for comments, and figure I will try it once again, and then drop the issue, at least in this thread.

Per the Construction Material Table on page 640 of T5.0.9. stone is not a standard building material until Tech Level 3. Would someone like to tell that to the Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans? Bronze is a standard material at Tech Level 3.5, while Tech Level 1 is called the "Bronze Age". Iron is Tech Level 4 for Armor, while Tech Level 1.3 is called the "Iron Age". Leather is listed at Tech Level 3 for Armor as well, along with Wood as a construction material.

I have a picture of an Phoenician double-banked galley with a ram from circa 700 BC. Then you have the Thera Murals from circa 1600 BC. Care to look at where Galleys show up on the Tech Level Chart? The Romans were using sailing ships, some quite large, to move 100,000 to 150,000 tons of grain each year from Egypt to Rome. The Viking were sailing ships to Greenland and Iceland across the North Atlantic from Norway circa 900 AD. The Polynesians were colonizing the Pacific islands prior to the same period. Look at when sailing ships are supposed to be standard.

Edit Note: Exact Tech Levels corrected and highlighted.
Click to expand...

One last thing, since wood is listed as a Tech Level 3 Construction material, per page 640 in T5.0.9, what were all of the early ships being built out of? Leather and Bone are listed as Tech Level 3 as well.
 
timerover51 said:
I posted this for comments, and figure I will try it once again, and then drop the issue, at least in this thread.



One last thing, since wood is listed as a Tech Level 3 Construction material, per page 640 in T5.0.9, what were all of the early ships being built out of? Leather and Bone are listed as Tech Level 3 as well.
Click to expand...

What you obviously don't seem to get:

TL listed is mature TL; EVERYTHING CAN BE BUILT 2 TL EARLIER THAN LISTED TL.

Which means you can use leather, bone, and wood at TL 1.
 
aramis said:
What you obviously don't seem to get:

TL listed is mature TL; EVERYTHING CAN BE BUILT 2 TL EARLIER THAN LISTED TL.

Which means you can use leather, bone, and wood at TL 1.
Click to expand...

In Traveller 5/09 3TL before.
Experimental, Prototype, and Early. Of course you'll blow yourself up trusting to a experimental version.

TL0 (primordial ooze) building experimental ships....
 
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